Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
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I would say yes, as the EPCOT project was a massive undertaking and Disney's big focus back then was bringing that concept to fruitation.
They invested insane amounts time, money, and personnel resources to brainstorm, create concepts, design, and physically build the place.

So i would say absolutely it took attention and creative resources away from Walt's Place.

It was nice when DL bounced back...but then fell back again....and then moved a little forward...and now....?

I am still waiting for Discovery Bay.
:)
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
But your involvement seems to have given you better insight on what was in the works and you are right: from that perspective it was fairly dim. Was there perhaps an emphasis on creating something in Florida such as World Showcase or the beginnings of EPCOT Center that distracted WED from Disneyland?

I think so, yes.
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
A bit off-topic but still related to Disney.... on one of my usual Internet tangents I came across this test film clip. I was surprised to hear a familiar voice doing the narration. The time period would put it about the right for when Adventure Thru Inner Space was being worked on -- the Haunted Mansion would arrive only a couple years later. If I was pitching a crazy movie concept about an advanced civilization of apes I know I would want Paul Frees to voice the narration!

Unfortunately this board doesn't seem to like YouTube URL's so you'll have to visit it here>>>>

After the narrated story boards, be sure to enjoy a performance of Dr. Zaious by Edward G. Robinson. He dropped out of the production after this test film.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Paul Frees voice is right up there with Orson Welles. Had a great LP as a kid of his where he sings as movie stars..Yes, I know..Sings.




I love how his performance on POTA is just like in ATIS. So great, thanks for finding this.."And still I continue to shrink..."
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
Much better than William Shatner's album. ;)

The similarities to the ATIS narration hit me immediately -- very cool.
 
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Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Well, the Starbucks opened on Main Street and I stopped in.

Serious guilt cash was well spent on theming as details abound, and it occurred to me that almost the entire footprint of the old Market House entry is now open queue. This is the most serious issue even more than the Starbucks brand. The focus of the room is a lit deli case embedded in the queue and a part of the counter system. Did not seem like there were any "must-have" Disney only signature items. I would have loved to try a Disneyland Market House blend VIA, or and "1871 Blend" made just for them. Or a Disneyland SB Card. Nothing that I could see off hand.

They did create a lush and well detailed "bohemia of the nineteenth century" library space to sip your coffee and relax with the Pot Belly Stove. Really great, but felt a touch unrelated to the market. Main Street does need spaces you can just chill in and this is a welcome addition. I did notice that the soundtrack had changed on the "party line" telephones. The new soundtrack has people discussing how much they loved or were taken with or could not get enough of..coffee. Had to laugh. Product placement is in the details my friends. They did Steampunk lights made from Espresso machines and a few other fun things, but the overall feel comes not from the excess of victorian charm, but from the needs of the "format". The mass sales process shapes the experience, and the lack of anything unique in the offerings hurts the fact that a favorite brand is at the park. There should be as much care in the details of what is sold as there is in the room. There was even a greeter saying "Welcome to the Market House" to me. Was it an attempt to convince me that it wasn't a Starbucks with a name tag? "Pay no attention to the man behind the Espresso machine! It's still has the old Stove, look!"..I'm just teasing, but there is a truth in all of this. It is what it is, even with lush moldings and fonts. Like any mass Disney food facility, you have the dual queue leading to the bank of registers, the brightly lit deli case of packaged goods, and in this case, typical Starbucks products like Via to purchase while in line. The fact that two more are going into DTD just outside the berm makes this even less unique and sets up the weakest aspect of the brand, being ubiquitous. The world has changed and so be it. Chill out and have a legal stimulant. Main Street as a land is by design intended to be the alternative, small town caught up in change, it taught you as it's own "endangered species of American life" not so much about victorian culture, but that it's world was still innocent, simple and that it's tempo was set by hoofbeats. All of these experiences going from boutique to mass erodes that uniqueness, Starbucks is just the latest billboard on that slippery highway.


I also left thinking about the wisdom of using valuable themed real estate for merely storing people. Is the experience better outside lining up on the street, or being in a low ceiling switchback in a throng? It's a tough one. When what could have been an entire shop, basically becomes a massive queue as your first impression (like a huge parking lot in front of the distant Best Buy), then you realize that some food concepts that require individual preparation (handmade coffee, scooped ice cream) do not really scale well, or maybe it would be better to let the line manage itself outside as when you see it's too long you come back later. It has worked for over 50 years at the Ice Cream window just outside, or the Corn Dog Truck. Lines limit themselves. I have seen the Gibson Girl queue filled in summer and it looks daunting and I will never get in it. I do however wait in the cone shop outdoor line but it is never super long. Just a thought to discuss. I think WDI/SQS did what it could to make this very nice indeed, but it is what it is.
 
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Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
If people can be civil and form queues in cramped stores at the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, why can't they on Main Street, USA?

I really dislike the queue stanchions. They look mass produced.
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
I remember reading that J.K. Rowling was insistent on maintaining the intimacy of the shops in "Potterland". Apparently, she felt that the experience was more important than streamlined efficiency. The Starbucks decor is amazing but that queue makes me depressed. Has the need for capacity become so important that we now have to endure such soul-stealing experiences? Whatever happened to putting your customers out by the windows to create interest to those passing by -- or allowing a bit of chaos and disorder to bring some life to the place? Or even bring in some of the authentic experiences that Walt Disney was striving for. Not every space needs to be mass-capacity-engineered to within an inch of it's life. Hopefully they will find that they don't need such a huge queue and some of the amazing charm of the Library can be brought out to the main market area.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
I remember reading that J.K. Rowling was insistent on maintaining the intimacy of the shops in "Potterland". Apparently, she felt that the experience was more important than streamlined efficiency. The Starbucks decor is amazing but that queue makes me depressed. Has the need for capacity become so important that we now have to endure such soul-stealing experiences? Whatever happened to putting your customers out by the windows to create interest to those passing by -- or allowing a bit of chaos and disorder to bring some life to the place? Or even bring in some of the authentic experiences that Walt Disney was striving for. Not every space needs to be mass-capacity-engineered to within an inch of it's life. Hopefully they will find that they don't need such a huge queue and some of the amazing charm of the Library can be brought out to the main market area.

Good points, but a morning coffee spot is different in purpose than the Potter retail experience.
They would never do this at, say, the Emporium.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I remember reading that J.K. Rowling was insistent on maintaining the intimacy of the shops in "Potterland". Apparently, she felt that the experience was more important than streamlined efficiency. The Starbucks decor is amazing but that queue makes me depressed. Has the need for capacity become so important that we now have to endure such soul-stealing experiences? Whatever happened to putting your customers out by the windows to create interest to those passing by -- or allowing a bit of chaos and disorder to bring some life to the place? Or even bring in some of the authentic experiences that Walt Disney was striving for. Not every space needs to be mass-capacity-engineered to within an inch of it's life. Hopefully they will find that they don't need such a huge queue and some of the amazing charm of the Library can be brought out to the main market area.

It would take a power like Rowling to restrain the corporate instinct to "supersize" those facilities. Fact is, that Tomorrowland would have the been the place to do a touchscreen version or something that merits the mass market process. Gibson Girl and Coke Corner suffer from the same big queue issue. Coke solves it without stanchioning the whole space with switchbacks and I think that's a better alternative.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Guilt cash! That's the perfect description of the ill placed theming.
What I mean by that is that if you know that Starbucks on Main Street might be a hard fit for WDI, you throw lots of budget at them it in hopes of their being able disguise the obvious. Maybe it''s a poor choice of words.
 

dhall

Well-Known Member
...
I also left thinking about the wisdom of using valuable themed real estate for merely storing people. Is the experience better outside lining up on the street, or being in a low ceiling switchback in a throng? It's a tough one. When what could have been an entire shop, basically becomes a massive queue as your first impression (like a huge parking lot in front of the distant Best Buy), then you realize that some food concepts that require individual preparation (handmade coffee, scooped ice cream) do not really scale well, or maybe it would be better to let the line manage itself outside as when you see it's too long you come back later. It has worked for over 50 years at the Ice Cream window just outside, or the Corn Dog Truck. Lines limit themselves. I have seen the Gibson Girl queue filled in summer and it looks daunting and I will never get in it. I do however wait in the cone shop outdoor line but it is never super long. Just a thought to discuss. I think WDI/SQS did what it could to make this very nice indeed, but it is what it is.

I think there's a problem with letting queues spill out into the street -- it gives the impression that the park itself is more crowded. If you waited in line to get on the monorail, waited in line to get through security, waited in line to get into the park, and the first thing you see once you're in is more long lines, you're getting your theme park day off to a bad start. While the self managing queue is true to some extent, I think that the lines for coffee first thing in the morning will be long regardless of their path, so it's probably better not to create/exacerbate a bottleneck for the main flow of traffic into the park.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I think there's a problem with letting queues spill out into the street -- it gives the impression that the park itself is more crowded. If you waited in line to get on the monorail, waited in line to get through security, waited in line to get into the park, and the first thing you see once you're in is more long lines, you're getting your theme park day off to a bad start. While the self managing queue is true to some extent, I think that the lines for coffee first thing in the morning will be long regardless of their path, so it's probably better not to create/exacerbate a bottleneck for the main flow of traffic into the park.

Coke Corner has a reasonable amount of interior queue but it is not completely railed in. I agree that there are issues, but there needs to be balance. There will be Starbucks locations right outside the gate in DTD so it's not like it was where there are no choices and everyone has to stop there.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Coke Corner has a reasonable amount of interior queue but it is not completely railed in. I agree that there are issues, but there needs to be balance. There will be Starbucks locations right outside the gate in DTD so it's not like it was where there are no choices and everyone has to stop there.
I think opening up the Downtown Disney location last, instead of first, was an error. Completely replacing Nescafé with Starbucks coffee also likely would have helped with those just wanting a morning coffee.
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
I wonder if Starbucks would have gone for something distinct from their usual operation. Obviously, they need to meet the expectations of their clientele but would they have gone for a more traditional and personalized service within the park? I'm not saying it would have to be specifically sit down service because I haven't studied it but perhaps something more like a late 1890's barista service, open floor with the expresso bar at one end, standup tables at the sides, and a seating area where they serve you a Starbucks coffee in a real porcelain cup or glass! Are they too set in their corporate formula to entertain the thought of showcasing their coffee making expertise in a unique experience?
 
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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Good points, but a morning coffee spot is different in purpose than the Potter retail experience.
They would never do this at, say, the Emporium.
WWOHP opens 1 hour early for onsite guests and, as I recall (only went for early opening once), the Butterbeer is flowing from dawn to dusk.

My point is Butterbeer is a morning, afternoon, and evening spot. :D

As Eddie wrote earlier:

"Speaking of special, "down the road" they are busy inventing new themed drinks people wish they could try and making a fortune, meanwhile Disney is obsessed with importing ordinary everyday experiences to replicate the world we left. Makes you think. Why can't the same effort go into things for Main Street that are uniquely Disney?"

At something like $10 for a souvenir mug, Uni has to be making a killing with Butterbeer.
 

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