Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Bairstow]

WWOHP opens 1 hour early for onsite guests and, as I recall (only went for early opening once), the Butterbeer is flowing from dawn to dusk.

My point is Butterbeer is a morning, afternoon, and evening spot.

As Eddie wrote earlier:

"Speaking of special, "down the road" they are busy inventing new themed drinks people wish they could try and making a fortune, meanwhile Disney is obsessed with importing ordinary everyday experiences to replicate the world we left. Makes you think. Why can't the same effort go into things for Main Street that are uniquely Disney?"

At something like $10 for a souvenir mug, Uni has to be making a killing with Butterbeer.

That wasn't what I was talking about.
I assumed you were referring to the way nearly the entirety of the new Main Street Bakery is devoted to queue space for people ordering coffee.
My point was that it makes good sense for a place vending quick food or coffee to be set up for capacity/efficiency while it might make more sense for a slower/botique style retail or bakery/candy location to have a more modest internal queue system that allows for more natural browsing. It comes down to a question of how much time it will take for a guest to decide what she wants to order at that particular location. For something like coffee, and especially a place that serves readily-identifiable and standard Starbucks products, that time is going to be very short, even if demand is high.

Not sure how butterbeer figures into that.

 

[Figments Friend]

I think opening up the Downtown Disney location last, instead of first, was an error. Completely replacing Nescafé with Starbucks coffee also likely would have helped with those just wanting a morning coffee.

Agree.
Not really sure why it was felt that DL needed a Starbucks inside the gates when there is a location currently being built within a few steps of said gate in DTD.

If there really THAT much demand ..?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The Market House was designed in 1955 for a park that was laid out to entertain about 1 million guests a year. It now does 15 times that. Push does come to shove and the square footage never changes, only the concept. So you do have to deal with that reality. Either you are choosy about what you put into those spaces or you deal with crowds from putting something with huge demand in a small space. I'm sure they set records this weekend.


Micechat posted these images that are pretty telling. Is it worth doing this holding pen style entry to space after space? Is it overkill to have this much indoor queue? A double lane? The Dole Whip line can be long (50 feet) and in single file and it's the only place in the whole park to get it. Maybe you could have woven the queue through more random displays like the old market house so when it's dead you don't see rails and they just unhook the chains. Starbucks in my hood does this now, going between baskets or chips and through a trail to the case. Where is that?

Here is the queue in the Deli in Paris. It's sandwiched into the space instead of a huge area as your first impression. Obviously not the same demand, but there might be a middle ground here. I'm sure this Market House will be gone soon and will be a Starbucks before long.The Camera store is leaving now from what I hear.

Here is Gibsons....Notice how the queue is painted to stand out and decorated as a feature as before it was more subtle and almost invisible.

Gibsons in Paris. The queue is almost invisible and you focus on the backbar soda fountain and the decor. It hides in plain sight.

Finally this is where we landed when you put something with the demand of a Starbucks in a tiny block of 1955 designed Disneyland. Notice how the in line casework is still the modern rectangular format and shape, and those products are not arranged as they were and the pyramid stacked way of an old time experience. Where is the brass or moldings on the old time Deli case? Compare the folksiness of the other parks to this. You'll see how the process has overtaken the charm. It is very transparent to me that you are sensing Starbucks exactly as you would at home. Hopefully there is a better way to "design churches for Easter Sunday" so the rest of the day is a decent themed experience.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

You know too much so the architecture is sending mixed signals others don't get. That is the "theatrical" aspect of taking some license, as most just love it and accept it as the Hollywood or LA "that never was but always will be". Nevertheless, to your point, it does not work for you because you see all of these stolen icons for what they are, stolen references from different times all out of order. I'm not sure they meant it to be a linear experience or story, just a basic premise and relied on the inside jokes of the names of things to justify it. . Still, when we recycle design from the "real world" we do run the risk of doing what has happened to you, we can send the wrong message or set the wrong expectation. For example, Sleeping Beauty Castle being ripped off from Neuschwanstein Castle may remind Germans of their homeland instead of a Disney film. That was Herb Ryman's argument way back in 1953 so he turned the top of the Castle around to make it less recognizable. The symbolism can confuse when it is too literal. The wrong reference can distract by sending it's own message. (I think of the movie Xanadu when I enter DCA).

I've always loved the look of the movie Xanadu- and Olivia certainly added to the eye candy!

 

[Omnispace]

For me the appeal of Disneyland is that it is a park that was designed for 1 million visitors a year and thus has that more intimate scale to it. Super-scaling coffee sales completely misses the point on what Main Street was supposed to be about. All the clever references and custom themed elements cannot cover up what is basically a franchised corporate operation. Unfortunately, another piece of what made Disneyland so delightful in the first place has been lost.

Thanks for the photo comparisons on the various Main Street interiors. There is definitely a right way and a wrong way to do things.

 

[Knothead]

Quick question here for Eddie and all: Since I was too young to remember, does anyone here recall any kind of backlash (from fans or cast members) upon hearing the news that EPCOT the city wouldn't be built, and another theme park would take its place instead? If so, how loud were the voices calling for the continuation of Walt's legacy? And if not, that's a shame IMO. Thanks for the time.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Quick question here for Eddie and all: Since I was too young to remember, does anyone here recall any kind of backlash (from fans or cast members) upon hearing the news that EPCOT the city wouldn't be built, and another theme park would take its place instead? If so, how loud were the voices calling for the continuation of Walt's legacy? And if not, that's a shame IMO. Thanks for the time.

At the time, there was no real forum for anyone to discuss it as fans. You could say something at the shareholders meeting.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Quick question here for Eddie and all: Since I was too young to remember, does anyone here recall any kind of backlash (from fans or cast members) upon hearing the news that EPCOT the city wouldn't be built, and another theme park would take its place instead? If so, how loud were the voices calling for the continuation of Walt's legacy? And if not, that's a shame IMO. Thanks for the time.

There was was never a singular announcement of "EPCOT is canceled, we're building EPCOT Center instead." Disney dragged their feet for years, hemming and hawing, not trying to say too much, but saying things were sort of kind of in development. Lake Buena Vista was to be the "host community of Walt Disney World" and include some of the EPCOT ideas. Then there was the World Showcase and EPCOT Theme Centers which were to include some of the industry and cultural exchange ideas as part of progress to the idea. Around this time, the mid-to-late 1970s, Disney also tried to reframe the issue of residents and say that was never an big goal.

Throughout this, there were people in Florida, including in the state legislature, who were annoyed at the lack of progress of EPCOT. A lot of this revolved around the powers of the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which Disney claimed they needed in order to build EPCOT. These powers again became a sore spot for some when Michael Eisner started his building spree in Florida. At times, when it was convenient, they tried to play off Celebration as fulfilling more of the EPCOT promise.

 

[Bairstow]

Call me negative, but I've never seen the EPCOT concept as being remotely viable, at least not in this country.
Is there any evidence that the Florida legislature ever seriously considered getting on the Ebenezer Howard bandwagon?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Call me negative, but I've never seen the EPCOT concept as being remotely viable, at least not in this country.
Is there any evidence that the Florida legislature ever seriously considered getting on the Ebenezer Howard bandwagon?

The Reedy Creek Improvement District.

 

[Bairstow]

Was it only created under the pretense that there was going to be some sort of industrial production facility to be built on site?
My understanding is that it does exactly what it was established to do.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Was it only created under the pretense that there was going to be some sort of industrial production facility to be built on site?
My understanding is that it does exactly what it was established to do.

The whole need for control was built around developing and sustaining EPCOT. That's why some in Florida wanted the District dissolved when EPCOT was clearly not going to happen, because that was its whole reason for being.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I wonder if an effort could be made to use whatever is working or learned on interactive attraction queues and apply it to food service queues?

The best thing I've seen thus far is someone getting your order while you are in line at the Corn Dog truck. Of course in a real market house or Deli, you take a number and then you get waited on when it's called or is on the counter. They solved lines in tiny markets almost a century ago without storing everyone in a bullpen.

All I'm saying is that there are other options that might free up the space, and just because a snaked line works at the real world locations, doubling it with more lines and more registers may not be a good idea. Even snaking it between displays or around the room might work. I don't know, maybe it is the only viable option given the type of product, the time spent at the counter, etc. I've found that merely "scaling up" sometimes is not that successful or has harmful side effects.

 

[Omnispace]

The whole need for control was built around developing and sustaining EPCOT. That's why some in Florida wanted the District dissolved when EPCOT was clearly not going to happen, because that was its whole reason for being.

Very interesting. I had never thought of it that way since of course the RCID initially encompassed the development of the park and resorts. Being on the opposite coast I never had access to the local press on stories regarding the nuances of WDW. Eventually, THIS came out and it was difficult not to be impressed.

Ironically, one of my favorite things at Disneyland was the spectacular model of Progress City. Being a kid I never made the connection that it was based on EPCOT.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Very interesting. I had never thought of it that way since of course the RCID initially encompassed the development of the park and resorts. Being on the opposite coast I never had access to the local press on stories regarding the nuances of WDW. Eventually, THIS came out and it was difficult not to be impressed.

I am nowhere near old enough to have first hand knowledge and memories. I highly recommend Project Future: The Inside Story Behind the Creation of Disney World by Chad Denver Emerson for an in depth look at the creation and powers of the Reedy Creek Improvement District and Married to the Mouse: Walt Disney World and Orlando by Richard E. Fogelsong for a look at opposition to the District since its creation.

 

[Omnispace]

I wonder if an effort could be made to use whatever is working or learned on interactive attraction queues and apply it to food service queues?

The best thing I've seen thus far is someone getting your order while you are in line at the Corn Dog truck. Of course in a real market house or Deli, you take a number and then you get waited on when it's called or is on the counter. They solved lines in tiny markets almost a century ago without storing everyone in a bullpen.

All I'm saying is that there are other options that might free up the space, and just because a snaked line works at the real world locations, doubling it with more lines and more registers may not be a good idea. Even snaking it between displays or around the room might work. I don't know, maybe it is the only viable option given the type of product, the time spent at the counter, etc. I've found that merely "scaling up" sometimes is not that successful or has harmful side effects.

All very important things to consider. My take on interactive queues is that sometimes they work and sometimes they feel contrived. The Indiana Jones queue fits with what the attraction is about -- going on an adventure. But food service is a different thing entirely and people have different expectations. You basically create a interesting environment for people in queues to stay distracted while still allowing them to prepare for their order. For me, I love the Boudin store in San Francisco that has the overhead conveyor with the baskets of bread moving about, (they are actually used in the store's operation).

Perhaps the biggest point of interest for people is watching other people. I think I would have preferred to walk into the new Market House and see nice groupings of tables with people sitting at them. A nicely defined queue would clearly lead the way to the service counter which in itself would be a "weenie" to draw one back. Then I can people-watch while waiting in line, have some appropriately themed menus to help in my selection, and if the space is well-themed, enjoy a bit of the ambiance of a busy coffee house and pretend it's 1910. It's something that has been time-tested and it's authentic.

 

[Omnispace]

Talking about alternatives to traditional food operations, I thought this was interesting when I first read about it -- mostly because it is a Syd Mead design. Called FoodParc, it allowed one to order their selections from banks of computers and then pick them up at one of the counters. I'm not sure how well it worked and unfortunately it seems like it is now closed. As for the design, Syd did an amazing job. In realization, it looks like they ran out of their budget on the ceiling treatment. The curved canopies with dramatic lighting turned into translucent screens for fluorescent lights. Still interesting to to consider. No soulless queue's here.

New York seems to be the place for unusual scaled-up dining concepts. I've always wanted to try the Automat.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Very interesting. I had never thought of it that way since of course the RCID initially encompassed the development of the park and resorts. Being on the opposite coast I never had access to the local press on stories regarding the nuances of WDW. Eventually, THIS came out and it was difficult not to be impressed.

Ironically, one of my favorite things at Disneyland was the spectacular model of Progress City. Being a kid I never made the connection that it was based on EPCOT.

I liked it too...I named my first design company "Progress City".

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Well, the Starbucks opened on Main Street and I stopped in.

Serious guilt cash was well spent on theming as details abound, and it occurred to me that almost the entire footprint of the old Market House entry is now open queue. This is the most serious issue even more than the Starbucks brand. The focus of the room is a lit deli case embedded in the queue and a part of the counter system. Did not seem like there were any "must-have" Disney only signature items. I would have loved to try a Disneyland Market House blend VIA, or and "1871 Blend" made just for them. Or a Disneyland SB Card. Nothing that I could see off hand.

I also left thinking about the wisdom of using valuable themed real estate for merely storing people. Is the experience better outside lining up on the street, or being in a low ceiling switchback in a throng? It's a tough one. When what could have been an entire shop, basically becomes a massive queue as your first impression (like a huge parking lot in front of the distant Best Buy), then you realize that some food concepts that require individual preparation (handmade coffee, scooped ice cream) do not really scale well, or maybe it would be better to let the line manage itself outside as when you see it's too long you come back later. It has worked for over 50 years at the Ice Cream window just outside, or the Corn Dog Truck. Lines limit themselves. I have seen the Gibson Girl queue filled in summer and it looks daunting and I will never get in it. I do however wait in the cone shop outdoor line but it is never super long. Just a thought to discuss. I think WDI/SQS did what it could to make this very nice indeed, but it is what it is.

Well, at least it has some seating. When the new location opened in WDW, they had removed ALL of the seating!!!! You now have to get your coffee and morning roll, and enjoy it outside! I will admit, they can serve more people faster (because it does take quite a bit longer to make Starbuck's coffees than just pouring Nescacrap), but at the expense of what was a really nice place to just sit and relax for a bit. And they call it progress?!?!?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well, at least it has some seating. When the new location opened in WDW, they had removed ALL of the seating!!!! You now have to get your coffee and morning roll, and enjoy it outside! I will admit, they can serve more people faster (because it does take quite a bit longer to make Starbuck's coffees than just pouring Nescacrap), but at the expense of what was a really nice place to just sit and relax for a bit. And they call it progress?!?!?

The seating area is really nice and the best thing about it.