Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Sped2424]

By any chance did you get to go to New fantasyland? @Eddie Sotto if so what did you think of it?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

By any chance did you get to go to New fantasyland? @Eddie Sotto if so what did you think of it?

I was in the Orlando area on business and sadly had to choose what to use my several free hours on. I voted for Test Track and passed on NFL.

 

[Sped2424]

I was in the Orlando area on business and sadly had to choose what to use my several free hours on. I voted for Test Track and passed on NFL.

Yeah besides NFL isn't even done yet either and test track and the world showcase are hard to pass on! But thank you for answering! Whenever you do get to visit hopefully they'll be finished!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Exactly!, Starbucks COULD have stretched and had a few of the coffee drinks which were popular at that time and at EPCOT they could have explored coffee and perhaps had drinks which were unique to EPCOT, Maybe even a tie in with the Land - Dragonfruit tea cooler perhaps since Disney grows Dragonfruit in the greenhouse.

Disney has ALWAYS has had tie ins with food companies, Sunkist in DL which HAD Orange products which were only found at DL, Carnation Milk Bar they were ALL national brands but they made their Disney presence unique and special.

Whats annoying about the Starbucks is that it's a generic starbucks just like it's 7000 cousins

Even if they themed it, and they likely will, Starbucks by it's mere presence on a street corner symbolizes for many the commoditization and "blanding" of cities. What will be next? Ye old "Gap" or what about a themed "Subway" under the RR Station? I love Starbucks and buy their products with fervor and anticipation, but think that when I pay a hundred bucks to enter a Disney park that is supposed to be another world, having a Starbucks on the corner of Main Street and Center completely breaks the spell. Especially replacing the Market House, a 1955 location. I know lots of brands are there, but Coke is period and Sunkist was not on every corner. SB is just too ordinary and real world. Like so many overscaled food facilities it takes away several facades, is designed for capacity, not intimate charm. The theming will be liberally spread like margarine over a generic SB or fast food layout.

Would I rather have their coffee than Nestle? Yes. But I'd get it on the way in or out. IMO they should rip out the La Brea Bakery and build a mega SB in that spot between both parks and outside the berm.

 

[oswaldmickey]

*STRETCHHHH*

I'm sure I'm not the first person here on this thread to say this but.....
Just finished reading "Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks part I"

Took me only about 8 months, reading every comment and link there was. (I only read this during downtime at work). So fascinating, so informative with nice civil discussions and great contributing posters.

I will say I wish I could have commented on several things from upwards of 4 plus years ago when it was revelant to the conversation but I'll comment when I catch up. That and I went to EuroDisney 8 months after it opened when it was still new. My dad recorded a fair amount of it but skipped out on recording mainstreet.... (I was 6 at the time). He did completely record the haunted mansion (a bunch of black...it scared the hell out of me too), the pirates ride (more black) and the beauty and the beast show in French.

With that said, time to start reading part II. I'll see you all again in about year

 

[Goofyernmost]

Romance is not historical recreation. It's an image, an idealization. There is no issue of guest convenience, health or safety in not offering trendy drinks in an unrelated experience.

So you're saying that all the stuff I mentioned should go? That is the only way that this romance works. You cannot decide that one thing that is seen everyday outside of a Disney Park is a deal breaker but not the other. Sure you could have gotten hot dogs (sausages then) or Ice Cream at the turn of the 20th century, but you could get coffee too. If you are talking about ambiance then I doubt you would have found a "hot dog" stand that had stanchions where you ordered food (nothing authentic there) or the same for Ice Cream. And I would be totally impressed if you could find any store back then that looked even remotely like the interior of the Emporium. It's not the interior found in a store back then either, so isn't it just ones imagination that makes something romantic (historical) in this situation? As far as that goes where is the outcry for the fact that they sell Mickey shaped balloons on Main Street? Is that something commonly seen at the turn of the century? How about electric light parades or glow in the dark sticks?

Contrary to popular belief I do understand what you are saying and if anyone wants to let the presence of a Starbucks on MSUSA be an issue, who am I to stop them? I just personally feel that it is much ado about absolutely nothing.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So you're saying that all the stuff I mentioned should go? That is the only way that this romance works. You cannot decide that one thing that is seen everyday outside of a Disney Park is a deal breaker but not the other. Sure you could have gotten hot dogs (sausages then) or Ice Cream at the turn of the 20th century, but you could get coffee too. If you are talking about ambiance then I doubt you would have found a "hot dog" stand that had stanchions where you ordered food (nothing authentic there) or the same for Ice Cream. And I would be totally impressed if you could find any store back then that looked even remotely like the interior of the Emporium. It's not the interior found in a store back then either, so isn't it just ones imagination that makes something romantic (historical) in this situation? As far as that goes where is the outcry for the fact that they sell Mickey shaped balloons on Main Street? Is that something commonly seen at the turn of the century? How about electric light parades or glow in the dark sticks?

Contrary to popular belief I do understand what you are saying and if anyone wants to let the presence of a Starbucks on MSUSA be an issue, who am I to stop them? I just personally feel that it is much ado about absolutely nothing.

Main Street, USA has been Brocken, but by bit over the years. The issue not that coffee was available, as Eddie said, there is a certain feeling associated with products. Starbucks doesn't serve old timey coffee, they serve hip and trendy. If it is much ado about nothing, then what is the point of the theme? What makes Disney special and different? Plenty of malls and shopping centers have themed buildings with no relationship to the stores, design or merchandise within.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

*STRETCHHHH*

I'm sure I'm not the first person here on this thread to say this but.....
Just finished reading "Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks part I"

Took me only about 8 months, reading every comment and link there was. (I only read this during downtime at work). So fascinating, so informative with nice civil discussions and great contributing posters.

I will say I wish I could have commented on several things from upwards of 4 plus years ago when it was revelant to the conversation but I'll comment when I catch up. That and I went to EuroDisney 8 months after it opened when it was still new. My dad recorded a fair amount of it but skipped out on recording mainstreet.... (I was 6 at the time). He did completely record the haunted mansion (a bunch of black...it scared the hell out of me too), the pirates ride (more black) and the beauty and the beast show in French.

With that said, time to start reading part II. I'll see you all again in about year

Glad you enjoyed part one, we are not that far from heading into part three.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Quick intermission:

Was that you, Eddie, behind Chewbacca in the Star Tours boarding video?

I did classic ST in DLP the other day. I know you are in the video (I think I remembered reading that), and tried to look for you. That guy near the back behind Chewie, amirite?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

*STRETCHHHH*

I'm sure I'm not the first person here on this thread to say this but.....
Just finished reading "Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks part I"

Took me only about 8 months, reading every comment and link there was. (I only read this during downtime at work). So fascinating, so informative with nice civil discussions and great contributing posters.

I will say I wish I could have commented on several things from upwards of 4 plus years ago when it was revelant to the conversation but I'll comment when I catch up. That and I went to EuroDisney 8 months after it opened when it was still new. My dad recorded a fair amount of it but skipped out on recording mainstreet.... (I was 6 at the time). He did completely record the haunted mansion (a bunch of black...it scared the hell out of me too), the pirates ride (more black) and the beauty and the beast show in French.

With that said, time to start reading part II. I'll see you all again in about year

What a great post! Eight months to make your way through an forum thread!

Let me add that I thoroughly enjoy these threads too. They have been complete gems to this forum for...well it seems like forever now.

Most of the subjects go beyond the fashion of the day, so if you do have a pressing comment about a four year old topic, do not hesitate to bring it up.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Main Street, USA has been Brocken, but by bit over the years. The issue not that coffee was available, as Eddie said, there is a certain feeling associated with products. Starbucks doesn't serve old timey coffee, they serve hip and trendy. If it is much ado about nothing, then what is the point of the theme? What makes Disney special and different? Plenty of malls and shopping centers have themed buildings with no relationship to the stores, design or merchandise within.

Main Street is thematically "broken" or at least you can say that it has evolved into something very different than what was intended. The world has indeed changed and the success of the park has made the real estate insanely valuable so it begs to be exploited at the lowest common denominator. It has gone from a number of varied experiences to a mega store behind the myriad of facades. Walt wanted to make a statement about change in America and pass on his hometown life to another generation. I guess losing the "mom and pop" small town feel and retail monopolizing the street is art imitating life! BTW Who relates to that turn of the century theme anymore? So there are many small thematic contradictions to the point that MSUSA represents more of a "Disney mall" of products and services styled to an enameled past that slaves to that, versus a "Small Town America" movie set you could buy into. So it is another "world" but it's continuity is first and foremost to a mall, not a place back in time. Starbucks is just another distraction, an obvious nail in the coffin. No worse than a DVC Kiosk. It will be nicely done for sure, with a glance back toward the Market House with some props. The guests will love it, and want a collectible Disney/Starbucks coffee card for sure. So you are right that it's much ado about nothing in the context of the greater slippery slope, I just resent losing the Market House, which was one of the last pure areas of theme on Main Street.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Quick intermission:

Was that you, Eddie, behind Chewbacca in the Star Tours boarding video?

I did classic ST in DLP the other day. I know you are in the video (I think I remembered reading that), and tried to look for you. That guy near the back behind Chewie, amirite?

Yes, it was my first week at WED. I was sitting next to Midori Barnes, the Audio Engineer for the show. Most of those "extras" worked on the attraction design, I was just a seat filler back then, but proud to be such.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Main Street, USA has been Brocken, but by bit over the years. The issue not that coffee was available, as Eddie said, there is a certain feeling associated with products. Starbucks doesn't serve old timey coffee, they serve hip and trendy. If it is much ado about nothing, then what is the point of the theme? What makes Disney special and different? Plenty of malls and shopping centers have themed buildings with no relationship to the stores, design or merchandise within.

They don't sell the old timey coffee because my recollection of it is that it was bitter and that's not what people want today. Disney parks, in my mind, has at least a three fold Mission. One is Entertainment. Two is Retail and Three is service. Service covers a lot of things but feeding the masses is one of them. Their task is to try and combine all those things in a single venue. It will not be possible to make everyone happy in that mission. So what do they do. Go for what will make the most people happy. What that means is...hello Starbucks, goodbye disgusting, putrid (they tell me) Nescafe.

 

[HMF]

Even if they themed it, and they likely will, Starbucks by it's mere presence on a street corner symbolizes for many the commoditization and "blanding" of cities. What will be next? Ye old "Gap" or what about a themed "Subway" under the RR Station? I love Starbucks and buy their products with fervor and anticipation, but think that when I pay a hundred bucks to enter a Disney park that is supposed to be another world, having a Starbucks on the corner of Main Street and Center completely breaks the spell. Especially replacing the Market House, a 1955 location. I know lots of brands are there, but Coke is period and Sunkist was not on every corner. SB is just too ordinary and real world. Like so many overscaled food facilities it takes away several facades, is designed for capacity, not intimate charm. The theming will be liberally spread like margarine over a generic SB or fast food layout.

Would I rather have their coffee than Nestle? Yes. But I'd get it on the way in or out. IMO they should rip out the La Brea Bakery and build a mega SB in that spot between both parks and outside the berm.

I did that photoshop way back when of Main Street USA in Paris invaded by Starbucks and though it was done for humor I was concerned when I first posted it because I felt like I was indirectly messing with a masterpiece and then showing it to the original artist but it expressed exactly how I feel about the concept of Starbucks on Main Street. Thankfully, it seems the actual execution has been handled relatively well but there is that feeling of breaking into the escape and letting the real world in that is quite alarming about the whole thing.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I have no doubt that WDI is sensitive about this as well and so they will do all they can to integrate SB into the park in the best way they know how. They are great at this and I'm behind them all the way. But you can only do so much. You cannot avoid the giant queue that ends up dominating these charming places.The rendering does retain the feel of it. But the Stove and the boutique scale are gone forever. Like the Ice Cream Parlor, these places go from boutiques into themed cattle pens. It's too bad the interactive queue is not used in food service. The lack of columns for interest and lots of the same pendant lighting screams of the flavorless layout that lies beneath the theming. The big empty area to wait for your coffee is deadly as well. Same routine, different wood. The sight of a huge line like this would make me move on.

More on the original..
http://blog.touringplans.com/2013/0...rket-house-and-voices-of-liberty-say-goodbye/

Micechat has these images..

Starbucks is a brand I also know and love they are adamant about representing their brand and their product in the best possible light too. It's just that Disney is supposed to be unique, their product is a "Magic Kingdom" unlike any other on Earth, and Starbucks is ubiquitous and associated with the present, it's invasion is a recent memory, not a brand we love from the past.

Why on Earth did they not put it in Tomorrowland? A futuristic STARbucks? Can you imagine how cool that would be? A Coffee House of the future where tired Starship captains and Aliens hang out? Heck, put it next to the Sub ride with the Mermaid logo if you want.

 

[HMF]

I have no doubt that WDI is sensitive about this as well and so they will do all they can to integrate SB into the park in the best way they know how. They are great at this and I'm behind them all the way. But you can only do so much. You cannot avoid the giant queue that ends up dominating these charming places.The rendering does retain the feel of it. But the Stove and the boutique scale are gone forever. Like the Ice Cream Parlor, these places go from boutiques into themed cattle pens. It's too bad the interactive queue is not used in food service. The lack of columns for interest and lots of the same pendant lighting screams of the flavorless layout that lies beneath the theming. The big empty area to wait for your coffee is deadly as well. Same routine, different wood. The sight of a huge line like this would make me move on.

More on the original..
http://blog.touringplans.com/2013/0...rket-house-and-voices-of-liberty-say-goodbye/

Micechat has these images..

Starbucks is a brand I also know and love they are adamant about representing their brand and their product in the best possible light too. It's just that Disney is supposed to be unique, their product is a "Magic Kingdom" unlike any other on Earth, and Starbucks is ubiquitous and associated with the present, it's invasion is a recent memory, not a brand we love from the past.

Why on Earth did they not put it in Tomorrowland? A futuristic STARbucks? Can you imagine how cool that would be? A Coffee House of the future where tired Starship captains and Aliens hang out? Heck, put it next to the Sub ride with the Mermaid logo if you want.

It really is a tough battle between Art and commerce. I used to think that any business, institution etc. always had one transparent motive and vision and mode of operating but now it has become obvious with Disney in particular that there are many different agendas that interfere with one another and the end result is usually compromised because of it. Things become too big for their own good and often the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

 

[Figments Friend]

There will likely be a ride system that will allow it to be a reality. It may have been ahead of it's time.

That would be wonderful to see happen!

 

[Figments Friend]

Visited EPCOT for few hours and rode Test Track. Nice upgrade, Very few guests used the "design and test your car" interactive idea, so to that extent the story was a bit meaningless. The single rider line was so short that it bypassed the design stations. In "Innoventions", I liked the IBM THINK exhibit (very much in the spirit of 64 NYWF/Eames and refreshingly modern) and the "Sum of all Thrills" Design a Coaster KUKA Arm ride was busy too.

It was interesting to see lots of families willing to ride Test Track separated in the single rider line. Made me wonder if we are losing the "shared" experience.

The only EPCOT let down was that there was a big Starbucks logo looming over a construction fence in Communicore. I guess the future is also about Global homogenization. Loved walking EPCOT anyway. Always great.

Great observations there, Eddie.
I agree regarding your comments on the huge Starbucks branding and the "shared" experience concept.

Also agree regarding the new upgrade to Test Track ( aka 'Tron Track' ).
The re-theme was a big improvement for me, but half of the appeal of the updated attraction is lost on those who choose the Single Rider line and miss the interactive element.
I remember my first experience with the updated version...i made the mistake of doing the SR line and soon realized i was missing half of the Show..!

 

[Figments Friend]

Would be interesting to see it conceptualized the same way they did for the Little Mermaid ride - as a ride-thru video.

I for one would enjoy seeing something like that.
Great idea !

 

[Omnispace]

If you still want a more authentic experience like the original Main Street USA, visit Henry Ford's Greenfield Village in Dearborn, MI. It's a great place to visit and one of Disney's inspirations for his park.