Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[CBOMB]

Especially this one!
http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/62907/house_10_dsc_5219_7_8.jpg

Do you think there is even one piece of furniture in that house that is not Victorian?

Its interesting though, because some of the flat surfaces like the one link seem more arabian influence, but the beauty of Russia I suppose is there's possible influences from Europe through the middle east and to China/the rest of Asia.

I think the onion dome originated in the middle east. I would guess Eastern Europe, and the middle east, and Asia have all contributed to the architectural design in Russia.

There is that "mash-up" kind of thing going on! Onion Domes are in Bavaria and the Tirol too.

I think that's why a Russian pavilion would make a great match for the World Showcase. It would be interesting to see how the Imagineers approached blending in all the distinct architecture features into one pavilion.

You sure have provided some interesting links Eddie. After going over all the different ones you've put up, I usually end up exploring the subject further. Dark Roasted Blend link is especially interesting.

 

[KevinYee]

There's a crate on a 'dock' behind Big Thunder (WDW) which has masonic symbols on it.

 

[Knothead]

There's a crate on a 'dock' behind Big Thunder (WDW) which has masonic symbols on it.

Interesting indeed. Any idea on its origins or reason for being there? Is it part of some larger theme?

 

[RSoxNo1]

There's a crate on a 'dock' behind Big Thunder (WDW) which has masonic symbols on it.

Lost Symbol... the ride!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I was wondering if you knew of any Sacred Geometry used in the parks, specifically WDW, whether intentionally or otherwise? I've seen a few Vesica Pisces and some other architecture and symbols that looks to be built Ad Quadratum. Do you know of any freemasons or any "occultists" who may have had influence during the design process? Strange question, I know, but I am fascinated on the subject and how these basic geometric patterns permeate our lives on a daily basis without us even noticing.

Thanks in advance, and I sure would miss this thread and your input if it was moved to the Twitterverse.

There are gothic symbols in the balustrades of the WDW Castle that derive from the "Holy Trinity" (three circles) of the "Cross" as Arrow slots, but that's traditionally Gothic and French Castles had those details. Voillet Le Duc restored many cathedrals and lots of his fanciful style crept into the work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugène_Viollet-le-Duc

So much historic architecture (Castles and Ornament) is influenced by early Temples and other Places of Worship that it's hard to separate the two at times. You end up with shapes and references that allude to a religious significance you did not imagine at first blush. I don't know of any Occultists that have been involved in the process and intentionally added anything. Set Designers use historical research to cobble together their designs and those references may come from sources steeped in symbolism, so things bubble up from beneath, but not sinister or intentional.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There's a crate on a 'dock' behind Big Thunder (WDW) which has masonic symbols on it.

"Hiram Abiff".. Was not aware of that. Hmm. I read it's the name of a fictional character in a Freemason play, no symbols of free masonry as I know them. The joke is that they are "masonry tools" inside and he's a free "Mason". Get it?

Found this on Miceage.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I was having a cocktail with a friend at the new Trader Sams's Tiki Bar at the DL Hotel, and the one thing that stood out was the "Disney Parks" Cocktail napkin. Why not "Disney Bars?" They had done everything else to make the place special. Volcanoes erupting, tikis drumming, lava filled drinks, etc. but that napkin with the TS logo or cocktail recipe on it was missing.' You present a 15 dollar drink in a custom mug on a generic napkin.

It got us into a discussion on the concept of "special" as an endangered species.

Those little things that you savor from an experience that tell you a place is from that "other world". Total design is just that, nothing is generic. Matchbooks are gone, swizzle sticks are gone (the monkey they would hang on the glass) all those cool things you'd squirrel away and love later or have at your own bar. At Rivera, we even have coasters with our name and a recipe. Those draconian cuts (Shaped butter and logo mints, park centric cups and bags) do eat away at the overall feel as they are things you touch and fiddle with. They are the details that complete the picture. What would Paris be if the T Shirts said "European Cities"?

You look hard to find a break in the "spell" and that Spaceship Earth shaped mint stares back at you and says "No. You're still at EPCOT".

 

[lazyboy97o]

I actually think, unless it fits the theme, that the napkins should be nondescript. Plain napkins would be a step up to the self referential DisneyParks® napkins and cheaper!

The Disneyland Hotel however has become entirely referential to Disneyland, so the DisneyParks® labeled napkins do, in a way, continue the theme. In a way it is sort of odd as it (the Disneyland Hotel) is a sort of nostalgic idealization of a nostalgic idealization (Disneyland).

 

[HMF]

I was having a cocktail with a friend at the new Trader Sams's Tiki Bar at the DL Hotel, and the one thing that stood out was the "Disney Parks" Cocktail napkin. Why not "Disney Bars?" They had done everything else to make the place special. Volcanoes erupting, tikis drumming, lava filled drinks, etc. but that napkin with the TS logo or cocktail recipe on it was missing.' You present a 15 dollar drink in a custom mug on a generic napkin.

It got us into a discussion on the concept of "special" as an endangered species.

Those little things that you savor from an experience that tell you a place is from that "other world". Total design is just that, nothing is generic. Matchbooks are gone, swizzle sticks are gone (the monkey they would hang on the glass) all those cool things you'd squirrel away and love later or have at your own bar. At Rivera, we even have coasters with our name and a recipe. Those draconian cuts (Shaped butter and logo mints, park centric cups and bags) do eat away at the overall feel as they are things you touch and fiddle with. They are the details that complete the picture. What would Paris be if the T Shirts said "European Cities"?

You look hard to find a break in the "spell" and that Spaceship Earth shaped mint stares back at you and says "No. You're still at EPCOT".

http://www.yesterland.com/disneyparks.html

 

[KevinYee]

"Hiram Abiff".. Was not aware of that. Hmm. I read it's the name of a fictional character in a Freemason play, no symbols of free masonry as I know them. The joke is that they are "masonry tools" inside and he's a free "Mason". Get it?

Found this on Miceage.

I should have said masonic references rather than masonic symbols. You're right that those symbols aren't masonic as I know it either.

 

[DisneyDadof5]

Think this got missed in the flow of posts, but I'd definitely be interested. Need to set me up an account anyways to keep up with the good stuff.

I have a Twitter account (@boss_angeles), but seldom tweet. If I did get back into it, are you folks interested in that? :shrug:


FYI- The Avatar is Larry King's booking photo, not me.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

http://www.yesterland.com/disneyparks.html

Makes the point better and in a funnier way than I did.

 

[John]

I was having a cocktail with a friend at the new Trader Sams's Tiki Bar at the DL Hotel, and the one thing that stood out was the "Disney Parks" Cocktail napkin. Why not "Disney Bars?" They had done everything else to make the place special. Volcanoes erupting, tikis drumming, lava filled drinks, etc. but that napkin with the TS logo or cocktail recipe on it was missing.' You present a 15 dollar drink in a custom mug on a generic napkin.

It got us into a discussion on the concept of "special" as an endangered species.

Those little things that you savor from an experience that tell you a place is from that "other world". Total design is just that, nothing is generic. Matchbooks are gone, swizzle sticks are gone (the monkey they would hang on the glass) all those cool things you'd squirrel away and love later or have at your own bar. At Rivera, we even have coasters with our name and a recipe. Those draconian cuts (Shaped butter and logo mints, park centric cups and bags) do eat away at the overall feel as they are things you touch and fiddle with. They are the details that complete the picture. What would Paris be if the T Shirts said "European Cities"?

You look hard to find a break in the "spell" and that Spaceship Earth shaped mint stares back at you and says "No. You're still at EPCOT".

Mr Sotto, This is exactly what I am talking about. This is what is missing all over Disney. It's what has set them apart in the past. When these things exsisted was it exspensive? Yes. They did away with these types of details to lower the cost thus allowing more guest to visit their resorts. I dont want to get ionto a whole class warfare type of arguement....I am certianlly not in the top ten percent when it comes to earned income. But when these details exsisted visiting a Disney park was for the "well to do" Now they have Wal-Marted the resorts. What I like to call
the MickeyMart effect. Disney has decided to grow the bottom line by increaseing the volume instead of the quality. The Next Gen project is exactly what this is about...How to occupy the minds of numerous vistors while standing inline. Another way to Disneyfy their time. Instead of taking that Billion dollars and enhanceing the experience.

What would a billion dollars do if it was spread across all parks specifcally adressing the details? The "magic" everyone talks about....isnt that the details they are talking about?

 

[COProgressFan]

Mr Sotto, This is exactly what I am talking about. This is what is missing all over Disney. It's what has set them apart in the past. When these things exsisted was it exspensive? Yes. They did away with these types of details to lower the cost thus allowing more guest to visit their resorts. I dont want to get ionto a whole class warfare type of arguement....I am certianlly not in the top ten percent when it comes to earned income. But when these details exsisted visiting a Disney park was for the "well to do" Now they have Wal-Marted the resorts. What I like to call
the MickeyMart effect. Disney has decided to grow the bottom line by increaseing the volume instead of the quality. The Next Gen project is exactly what this is about...How to occupy the minds of numerous vistors while standing inline. Another way to Disneyfy their time. Instead of taking that Billion dollars and enhanceing the experience.

What would a billion dollars do if it was spread across all parks specifcally adressing the details? The "magic" everyone talks about....isnt that the details they are talking about?

But in the whole scheme of things, these "excessive costs" of little details are really inexpensive. How much savings do they really have by ordering a batch of a million napkins with "Disney Parks" on them rather than having logos that are more specific? Are $10,000 worth of Epcot after dinner mints really going to break WDW's billion dollar operating budgets?

In Eddie's example, the experience is even more jarring because everything else is so heavily themed and unique. Trader Sam's is an homage to the unique, quirky past of Disneyland, but seeing the "Disney Parks" logo on a napkin, for example, just makes it feel cold and corporate. It just doesn't fit.

I guess I'm saying I agree that these tiny little details matter a lot, and in the whole scheme of things are really inexpensive, and keep up the illusion that the place you're in in special. How many of us have a small collection of these matchbooks, or swizzle sticks, or hotel room pens or notepads, or shopping bags from yesteryear?

 

[ChrisFL]

Mr Sotto, This is exactly what I am talking about. This is what is missing all over Disney. It's what has set them apart in the past. When these things exsisted was it exspensive? Yes. They did away with these types of details to lower the cost thus allowing more guest to visit their resorts. I dont want to get ionto a whole class warfare type of arguement....I am certianlly not in the top ten percent when it comes to earned income. But when these details exsisted visiting a Disney park was for the "well to do" Now they have Wal-Marted the resorts. What I like to call
the MickeyMart effect. Disney has decided to grow the bottom line by increaseing the volume instead of the quality. The Next Gen project is exactly what this is about...How to occupy the minds of numerous vistors while standing inline. Another way to Disneyfy their time. Instead of taking that Billion dollars and enhanceing the experience.

What would a billion dollars do if it was spread across all parks specifcally adressing the details? The "magic" everyone talks about....isnt that the details they are talking about?

Yep, Disney should be about plussing its parks and making people say "its more expensive, but its worth it", even if they have to go less often per year,

Instead, Disney offers discounts to bring in as many people as possible all the time, while not improving the parks as much as they used to, and adding fastpass and interactive queues to make you forget you're waiting in line.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm a believer in less crowds/higher quality and I'll gladly pay higher prices (which is why I spend about $1,500 extra to fly to Tokyo) WDW Execs, specifically could take a hint

 

[John]

When I was young and WDW first opened, there was nothing more in the world I wanted to do then to go and visit. It took my parents five years to save enough money to make that trip happen. Sure I guess I look at it with a different perspective then when I was ten then I do now as a adult. What I remember most isnt the rides I went on ( although I remember 20,000 leagues like it was yesterday ) it was the details. We went at christmas time. I remember waking up and the entire WDW was decorated. Decorated in a way that words could never do it justice. I remember that they had put stokings filled with all kinds of goodies for me and my brother. We thought it was Santa that had left them for just me and my brother. Ofcourse years later I learned that it was done for every child on property.

ou were truly a guest, the CM's had a way of making every person feel like royalty. That you were truly a guest in their home. These details money can not buy. It was a culture. The problem is the cat is out of the bag now. If they bring back the details which would surely raise the cost. The overall bad feedback they would get from the general puplic would result in a net loss. IMHO BTW I visit once a year. I have visited twice in a year two times. But for these types of changes we have discussed, I would gladly go every other year to experience the REAL disney magic.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Nickel and Diming.

So the conversation was ignited by cutting out the little things that make the big things so special. One of my favorite places to go as a kid was Farrell's Ice Cream Parlor. http://www.farrellsusa.com/

A very fun place to go with lots of special items that triggered crazy waiter behavior including sirens. The longest sandwich in the world was the "Gastronomicaldelicatessenepicurean's Delight"! The founder, Bob Farrell has a site dedicated to "the Pickle Principle", meaning good customer service and more importantly, being generous on what you spend on those details and making the customer happy by not charging for every single tiny item.

Read the story of the Pickle and let me know your thoughts.

http://www.giveemthepickle.com/pickle_principle.htm

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I dislike the "Walmarting" term and I disagree that WDW was ever only supposed to be for the well-to-do. I think of the Wal-Mart experience as cutting out all the frills to deliver the lowest possible price. Charging less for less. What has been happening is that Disney has been charging MORE for less. A one day ticket cost $15 in 1982; inflation would bring that up to about $36 today. Instead, a one day ticket costs $85 today. Look at the dining plan: you used to get tip and an appetizer with your table service meals, and the dining plan cost less then than it does now.

 

[John]

We too had a Farrell's ice cream palor near my home and absolutely loved the place. It was always packed and often had to wait for a table. God forbid if it was your birthday. A wonderful place that I have lots of fond memories of.

Reminds of a certian other place....huh?


This piticular subject and the so called Next Gen project just irratates the heck out of me. Who is going to remember that Disney has the best interactive line ques?... Who is going to say..."cant wait to go back....because standing in line was so much fun"?

 

[John]

I dislike the "Walmarting" term and I disagree that WDW was ever only supposed to be for the well-to-do. I think of the Wal-Mart experience as cutting out all the frills to deliver the lowest possible price. Charging less for less. What has been happening is that Disney has been charging MORE for less. A one day ticket cost $15 in 1982; inflation would bring that up to about $36 today. Instead, a one day ticket costs $85 today. Look at the dining plan: you used to get tip and an appetizer with your table service meals, and the dining plan cost less then than it does now.

I never thought that Disney was for ONLY the well to do. What I said was that only the well to do could afford to go. It was not economically possible for the average working class family. Illustrated by my post that it took my family five years to save enough to visit. We were by no means poor. Just average.

As far as the "wal-martization" of Disney. The difference is you call it "cutting the frills" I call it cutting the quality. The dfference between the two is that one is offering a shirt that after washing it a few times is unwearable and the other offering a guest experience that is less then the high standard that THEY established. Where we both agree on is the fact that they are chargeing more for giving us less. Atleast Walmart is chrageing us less for a lesser quality product.

Please do not misconstrude that I am someone who thinks highly of themselves and dont want to associate we" those people" I am one of those people. I am a blue collar construction worker from the outside of Baltimore, and hardly a product of a privledged upbringing. I had only visited WDW twice before the age of 35. But those two visits were enough to have a lasting impact and memory of what Disney used to be. I have visited WDW 14 times since and seen the decline in "show" every visit. BTW the ONLY reason I could afford to go now is that my mother is now a CM and could never afford to go that many times without her deep CM discounts.