Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Alektronic]

There was a time when WED and MAPO went hand in hand. Design and Production. MAPO to me was Disney's side of the road that the AA figures came from. It was very special and magical. Those silver Mary Poppins equipment tags were very cool.

As the world has changed, we have to recognize the concept of outsourcing. So the Garner Holt Company has been building AA figures for about Ten hers now, but not the most sophisticated ones or developing the new technologies. It appears that Disney is best suited to sell the parts to those who use them.

You can read more about it here.

http://www.disneybymark.com/2012/03/26/news-garner-holt-gets-disneys-aa-inventory/

So if this story is true, what do I think about it?

On one hand it's sad, as Disney was in my mind the leader and pioneer of this medium that has been allowed to stagnate in the past and become somewhat generic. Lincoln's head has improved for sure and they still invest in those high end figures. R&D still pushes those boundaries as in Mermaid. That's good. On the other, in my day (1990s) AA technology through the Disney bureaucracy had gotten so expensive that you could not afford to have them at all. We'd avoid designing them in because of the cost against our total budget. So the medium was not only dying from antiquation, but from it's own cost. If outsourcing them to a vendor makes them much more affordable, then I'm reluctantly for that approach. Why reluctantly? Because they are an outside firm and that means that anyone can go there. No longer is AA an exclusive brand advantage of Disney (except some of the features).

If it were possible, they should have spun MAPO off into a Garner Holt type of "meaner leaner" outside business that could stand on it's own, and this problem would not exist. Easier said than done, as you have to admit that you have labor rate issues and things like that. It's messy. They could build both patented Disney figures and ones for others. Lots of parks would want the Disney for their figures and show action equipment. Heresy? George Lucas did this with ILM. He let other peoples movies pay to grow his effects lab.

In light of that situation, it's a good move for the product, but not good for those laid off in any.

The question is, what discipline will be next?

It is really sad when they are sacrificing quality over money. Disney used to be a industry leader and now they seem to be just followers.

All the things I have worked on from MAPO have been high quality items and easy to troubleshoot and maintain. Many items are 30 to 40 years old using old technology but they still work and are easy to repair. Everything from lighting dimmers to control cards like FSC, ECAC, DCC, etc.

A lot of parts from other manufacturers have tried to replace them but the quality is missing and don't last as long and they are obsolete also already.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It is really sad when they are sacrificing quality over money. Disney used to be a industry leader and now they seem to be just followers.

All the things I have worked on from MAPO have been high quality items and easy to troubleshoot and maintain. Many items are 30 to 40 years old using old technology but they still work and are easy to repair. Everything from lighting dimmers to control cards like FSC, ECAC, DCC, etc.

A lot of parts from other manufacturers have tried to replace them but the quality is missing and don't last as long and they are obsolete also already.

Good point. The in-house team has different motives and priorities than an outside vendor with perhaps fixed pricing. WDI also farms out ride engineering to a degree.

Here's Garner Holt's website. they do lots of things. BTW, historically they are not the only outsource Disney uses for things like this.
http://www.garnerholt.com/productservices.php

 

[Florida_is_hot]

Outsourcing the the corporate way of the 21th century.
Disney is a corporation no reason to believe they be different.

The big sad joke is save go to the Magic Kingdom for the first time spent a few hundred on souvenirs after all you are on vacation and proud that you made it to Walt Disney World.... of course everything is made for a buck or two in Asia and marked up in the Magic Kingdom to $30 plus.

It is the corporate way.

Remember when Jobs said he was proud Apple products were built in the USA, now of course ...... China.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Outsourcing the the corporate way of the 21th century.
Disney is a corporation no reason to believe they be different.

Disney has been increasingly selling its parks based on their history, and that includes the legacy of MAPO. Disney, in parts, sells its image of having this workshop of designers and builders, a cultivated elite that brings "Disney" to life.

Remember when Jobs said he was proud Apple products were built in the USA, now of course ...... China.

A decision that he did not take lightly.

 

[HMF]

Outsourcing the the corporate way of the 21th century.

Thus, why we are currently in an economic crisis.:animwink:

 

[Ralphlaw]

The economic crisis has many causes, with outsourcing being more of a long-term trend as opposed to a crisis. Housing bubbles, too much debt, laziness, entitlement culture, inflated government, too much safety net, war, taxes, etc . . . are contributing as well. Outsourcing is tragic, but it follows basic laws of economics. Read Thomas Friedman's book, The World is Flat if you want to learn more about it. At this point in time, it is often the undesirable and untrained work that's outsourced, similar to the valuable work that illegal aliens do. Personally, such work is well outsourced, and let's also open the borders to bring in as many hard-working hungry people from Mexico as possible. But I digress.

More and more CPAs and engineers are finding their jobs shipped away. It's scary, but the only way to fight it is through trade protectionism that goes against the idea of free trade that most economists think is a good thing.

Steve Jobs was probably reluctant to manufacture in China for many reasons, but the economics still won out. If you don't want to pay $1,000 for your pocket gizmo, it's going to be made in Asia, which is also where Apple's competitors had already sent their manufacturing work. Low wages, no lawsuits, no worker's comp., no environmentalists. Remember, Wal-mart also used to advertise "Made in America" which is a distant memory.

Face it, good jobs in America require schooling, dedication, and brains; and even that may not be enough. Get educated, truly think about the opportunities that will be available down the road, and proceed accordingly. It's good to light a candle in the darkness, but it's also smart to figure out why it's dark in the first place.

 

[HMF]

Low wages, no lawsuits, no worker's comp., no environmentalists. .

Not to mention the policy of having any worker who dare tries to form a union, executed. (Yes, that is an actual policy in Chinese Manufacturing plants.) It's a very sad situation.

 

[flynnibus]

Steve Jobs was probably reluctant to manufacture in China for many reasons, but the economics still won out

He built temples for factories for Apple and NeXT.. and ran the latter into the ground with his absurd requirements.

Not to mention the policy of having any worker who dare tries to form a union, executed. (Yes, that is an actual policy in Chinese Manufacturing plants.) It's a very sad situation.

Cite??

 

[Ralphlaw]

Not to mention the policy of having any worker who dare tries to form a union, executed. (Yes, that is an actual policy in Chinese Manufacturing plants.) It's a very sad situation.

Not surprised, but that just means that our leaders should revoke China's Most Favored Nation trade status. And on that, read Lee Iacocca's excellent book, WHERE HAVE ALL THE LEADERS GONE? He is hugely critical of our American political leaders' inability to negotiate for us.

This has gone on for a long time, harkening back to the time we gave the Panama Canal back to Panama, and paid them to take it. The canal is a hugely valuable asset, generating billions of dollars a year for the Panamanians, and we paid them to take it. Idiocy, pure and simple. And that kind of idiocy continues today, 35 years later.

 

[ChrisFL]

Hey, let's try to get this thread back on topic please :wave:

 

[Vernonpush]

Hey, let's try to get this thread back on topic please :wave:

Yes, we don't want this thread locked because of "political views".

 

[Ralphlaw]

So this isn't the economics blog from the World Deficit Wealth, Measures And Gyrations Industrial Concern (WDWMAGIC)? Oops, my bad. And I thought the Society Of Trends, Transportation & Operations was part of this too.

Oh well, bring back the old TTA narration! Now we're back on track.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Not too far off.

Every designer has to be aware of the Zeitgeist of society and what is happening around them. So an occasional sidebar into economics is part of the bigger picture. Theme Park Attractions are a reflection of the times to a degree. Is the "Princess" movement and franchise reflective of how kids see themselves or as we see them?

When it comes to outsourcing, there are many factors to consider, but the most important one is "getting the money up onto the screen". That always has to be the first concern. It has to be quality for sure, but they come for the show and we have to deliver value. Every market has fragmented into many pieces, media has tons of outlets and even Disney has allowed the theme park playing field to level out to a degree. Outspending is not a defensive weapon as Universal can do that too and arguably better at times.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Abandoned German Theme Park

Check out these surreal images of a Berlin Theme Park that has been abandoned. Pretty cool. A victim of outsourcing?:ROFLOL:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2012/02/surreal-abandoned-amusement-park-in.html

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I too, think that they should have built up WDI's AA manufacturing arm and used outside projects to finance it, similar to what Lucas did with ILM. AAs are such an integral part of the Disney experience, it just make sense to develop proprietary technology to keep them ahead of the competition, as well as to push the boundaries.

Shanghai DL will need a ton of AAs if they want it to be successful and bring in guests. Grizzly River Run badly needs some AAs bears, animals . . . anything, but the ride has pretty much remained an off-the-shelf production for a decade. Walt would have wondered why WDI wasn't called in to plus the ride.

While some money will be saved by letting Holt do a lot of the work . . . in the short term, by farming out AAs WDI runs the risk of using AAs which don't compliment a ride's story well, at least that is how I see it. Look at Country Bear Jamboree, I used to love watching the Vacation show at Disneyland, in addition to the others. The bears look great, due in part to the fact that their fur looked real, their faces were animated well, and the lighting complemented them. Look at Ariel in LM, she looks so fake and plastic like, especially with the bright lights. If WDI was building more AAs, then they might have the skill to do a better job, PLUS if they worked for outside sources they would get real criticism which could be used to improve the product.

I really wish they would put back an AAs show, like Country Bears, in Disneyland. There is a ton of material out there, Pixar characters and new Disney characters. Ariel in the LM ride is 'OK', but what if she had mouth articulations so she could 'talk' and sing in a show, along with others? The new Ariel isn't that groundbreaking, considering new advances like electrical actuators and computers, guests should be getting to see better stuff.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Perspective

I too, think that they should have built up WDI's AA manufacturing arm and used outside projects to finance it, similar to what Lucas did with ILM. AAs are such an integral part of the Disney experience, it just make sense to develop proprietary technology to keep them ahead of the competition, as well as to push the boundaries.

Shanghai DL will need a ton of AAs if they want it to be successful and bring in guests. Grizzly River Run badly needs some AAs bears, animals . . . anything, but the ride has pretty much remained an off-the-shelf production for a decade. Walt would have wondered why WDI wasn't called in to plus the ride.

While some money will be saved by letting Holt do a lot of the work . . . in the short term, by farming out AAs WDI runs the risk of using AAs which don't compliment a ride's story well, at least that is how I see it. Look at Country Bear Jamboree, I used to love watching the Vacation show at Disneyland, in addition to the others. The bears look great, due in part to the fact that their fur looked real, their faces were animated well, and the lighting complemented them. Look at Ariel in LM, she looks so fake and plastic like, especially with the bright lights. If WDI was building more AAs, then they might have the skill to do a better job, PLUS if they worked for outside sources they would get real criticism which could be used to improve the product.

I really wish they would put back an AAs show, like Country Bears, in Disneyland. There is a ton of material out there, Pixar characters and new Disney characters. Ariel in the LM ride is 'OK', but what if she had mouth articulations so she could 'talk' and sing in a show, along with others? The new Ariel isn't that groundbreaking, considering new advances like electrical actuators and computers, guests should be getting to see better stuff.

I think that your problem with the AA's is not the outside vendor, it's the design direction of WDI.

The LM figures, gloss, hair, movement, show lighting and all of that is specified by WDI and the vendor just builds exactly what they approve and buy. Garner Holt (if they even built the Ariel figure) would have to submit samples of everything, right down to the level of gloss in the finishes to an Imagineer for their stamp of approval. They usually sign a piece of paper and then notes are taken by the vendor to move forward. "Quality" can be bought and it's up to the supervising WDI engineer and WDI art director to insist on getting it, as it's all in the contract and design drawings and engineering specs. As for talent most of these firms hire ex Disney people, so it's not like they don't know Animatronics. WDI Models are supplied for the vendor to submit their interpretation in drawings and WDI inspects this and decides if it's what they want prior to building it. That's how I work today, as I'm no longer an Imagineer with access to their shops. I have to ask for and supervise the quality of my jobs. In fact, if the outside company makes a mistake (or ignores a spec by putting something cheaper in) they have to pay to make it right. When it's WDI's fault building the AA, your budget gets hit for them to do it again and again, as there is no accountability and the costs just spiral out of control. WDI built the Pooh figures for TDL and a big mistake was not sculpting the figure to allow for the added thickness of fur, and in so doing when they were covered lost their "expression" to a degree (looked like they had a coat on). Things has to be redone at the project's cost and it still was not perfect. Garner Holt would have to have eaten those costs as it would have been shown in the drawings. Bringing Back "Bear Band" IMO has little to do with outsourcing, and is a Disney decision. The high cost of WDI built AA figures is why DL Alice and other rides don't have mouth moves (I think Ariel does have them?), because they simply could afford them. If the cost was brought down, maybe they would come back. The real danger would be not moving the R&D of AA figures forward. It seems they are still doing lots with the technology with the small figures and AI type things.

 

[Alektronic]

I too, think that they should have built up WDI's AA manufacturing arm and used outside projects to finance it, similar to what Lucas did with ILM. AAs are such an integral part of the Disney experience, it just make sense to develop proprietary technology to keep them ahead of the competition, as well as to push the boundaries.

Shanghai DL will need a ton of AAs if they want it to be successful and bring in guests. Grizzly River Run badly needs some AAs bears, animals . . . anything, but the ride has pretty much remained an off-the-shelf production for a decade. Walt would have wondered why WDI wasn't called in to plus the ride.

While some money will be saved by letting Holt do a lot of the work . . . in the short term, by farming out AAs WDI runs the risk of using AAs which don't compliment a ride's story well, at least that is how I see it. Look at Country Bear Jamboree, I used to love watching the Vacation show at Disneyland, in addition to the others. The bears look great, due in part to the fact that their fur looked real, their faces were animated well, and the lighting complemented them. Look at Ariel in LM, she looks so fake and plastic like, especially with the bright lights. If WDI was building more AAs, then they might have the skill to do a better job, PLUS if they worked for outside sources they would get real criticism which could be used to improve the product.

I really wish they would put back an AAs show, like Country Bears, in Disneyland. There is a ton of material out there, Pixar characters and new Disney characters. Ariel in the LM ride is 'OK', but what if she had mouth articulations so she could 'talk' and sing in a show, along with others? The new Ariel isn't that groundbreaking, considering new advances like electrical actuators and computers, guests should be getting to see better stuff.

WDI Creative has a lot of great stuff, remember Lucky the Dinosaur? He was all electric and lightweight acuators and motors.Muppet Mobile Lab, it was all electric. You should see the new Lincoln's head that uses all electric actuators and just tiny motors, it is incredibly life-life and head and shoulders above the rest. They have the technology, but do they want to spend the money to develop it more? No, they would rather budget-friendly AA figures that are easier and cheaper to produce and maintain.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

WDI Creative has a lot of great stuff, remember Lucky the Dinosaur? He was all electric and lightweight acuators and motors.Muppet Mobile Lab, it was all electric. You should see the new Lincoln's head that uses all electric actuators and just tiny motors, it is incredibly life-life and head and shoulders above the rest. They have the technology, but do they want to spend the money to develop it more? No, they would rather budget-friendly AA figures that are easier and cheaper to produce and maintain.

I don't think they are abandoning those things at all, they continue to develop them. You are right when you say, why are there lesser products out there when they show amazing things? The Lincoln head is out there running, not sure if the parks bought "Lucky". These ideas have to be "purchased" by the parks who have a budget ever year. Look at the things they do add, like the talking trashcan, "talking" Mickey walk around character, the Sorcerer's program and more.

They can prototype things and then use another vendor to build them en masse if they choose to if the vendor has the skillset. I have been through the R&D building and seen the things you mention and more. The process is that they invent and then have someone else build the inventions once they work.

Apple does not build iPhones, they invent them and oversee the execution. Same idea.

 

[Alektronic]

I don't think they are abandoning those things at all, they continue to develop them. You are right when you say, why are there lesser products out there when they show amazing things? The Lincoln head is out there running, not sure if the parks bought "Lucky". These ideas have to be "purchased" by the parks who have a budget ever year. Look at the things they do add, like the talking trashcan, "talking" Mickey walk around character, the Sorcerer's program and more.

They can prototype things and then use another vendor to build them en masse if they choose to if the vendor has the skillset. I have been through the R&D building and seen the things you mention and more. The process is that they invent and then have someone else build the inventions once they work.

Apple does not build iPhones, they invent them and oversee the execution. Same idea.

Maybe I should clarify my point. I was trying to say that WDI has very creative people and very incredible technology but it doesn't seem like the Disney Parks division wants to pay for high quality and technological breakthroughs. The Parks division, especially WDW, wants something simple to maintain and doesn't cost a lot. They would rather have simple AA figures or video screens instead of something that is going to blow everyones socks off. It is just a matter of money. OR maybe they are just afraid to take chances?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Little Mermaid Problems

The LM figures, gloss, hair, movement, show lighting and all of that is specified by WDI and the vendor just builds exactly what they approve and buy. Garner Holt (if they even built the Ariel figure) would have to submit samples of everything, right down to the level of gloss in the finishes to an Imagineer for their stamp of approval. They usually sign a piece of paper and then notes are taken by the vendor to move forward. "Quality" can be bought and it's up to the supervising WDI engineer and WDI art director to insist on getting it, as it's all in the contract and design drawings and engineering specs.

I obviously don’t have first hand experience with how Disney currently designs their AAs and orders them, but something doesn’t work on Little Mermaid.

1. After reviewing footage, the first Ariel does move her lips and sing realistically, my apologies, I forgot about this. I remember seeing this when I rode it, and knew it was a technologically sophisticated AA, but I didn’t go “Wow”, and wasn’t captivated as I’ve already seen dozens of bears move their lips and sing . . . Plus, this is the only Ariel that moves her lips.

2. Nonetheless, right after we see Ariel the first time there are non-moving fish plastered on the wall. These aren’t AAs, and they bad as the ride doesn’t use dark light, it looks like a mural. The purpose of this section of the ride is to get from point A to point B, and nothing much else.

3. The big ‘Under the Sea’ scene utilizes a lot of AAs which have very simplistic back and forth motions. I really don’t consider the ‘fish mobiles’ to be AAs as they don’t move individually. Maybe seeing the somewhat realistic Ariel and then getting mediocre AAs is the letdown for this part of the ride for me.

4. The Ursula AA is good, but the whole scene feels claustrophobic. While everybody knows Disney uses AAs, an illusion of life-like characters is hard to pull off when the ride vehicles are so close to the figures. I feel that if Ursula was further away, plus if she was surrounded with AAs for the souls of the mer-folks, this would give this scene the ‘Wow Factor’ instead of being just a reproduction from the movie. The Souls of the merfolks are just eyes that blink in and out, and don’t add much to the scene.

5. Kiss the girl scene—not as magical as it could have been in terms of lighting. Too much light on the Prince Eric and Ariel figures, the light is almost like daylight. I think they want riders to see the AAs clearly, but I think it would have worked better with a blue moonlight. The rest of the scene was cheaply done, as is obvious in the white lights.

6. Cheap cardboard cut-outs follow, and in the finale there are obviously repurposed ‘Under the Sea’ figures as they are dancing out of sink with the farewell music.

If Country Bears was redone in the style of Mermaid, then a couple of the Bears would be good AAs with realistic mouth movements and the rest wouldn’t much move at all. Good-bye Big Al, you’d just have two bears doing the whole show.