Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

I said it on Eddie's first thread and will repeat here, but the attraction is a masterpiece and shows you can make an E-Ticket out of any source material ... just a great, great ride ... and pathetic that well over a decade later that ride system hasn't made it stateside, but will be appearing in HKDL's Mystic Manor and DSP's Ratatouille rides soon.

Thank you. We had a great team that believed in what they were building. Pooh was my first "E" Ride to take from scratch at WDI, as Indiana Jones was an assist to Tony. The first challenge was how to deal with such a passive character that has "one note" stories and little action. No energy except from Tigger. You'd have to use the "world" to do that and make Pooh himself secondary, like the Blustery Day blows Pooh into situations. It also can't be too scary. But it needed wow and a tempo. That's what you sit and think about more than just telling the story. You can't rely on dialog although the movies are driven by narration. It's gotta be one liners. We did have the "Storybook" motif as a transition and scene change device.

The other thing was to lower expectations as much as we could. I wanted to make the ride look like a F'land Dark ride with the typical mural and line of cars. This would make the effect of them breaking away in all directions without tracks a shock to the guest. The queue is cheap and simple with the storybook pages, etc. We let the ride blow you away on it's own terms later and don't promise too much. That is the concern I have with Mermaid at DCA, is that the exterior is very big and grand and might set the show up for super high expectations.

The one thing I recall about the process of finding a creative direction for Pooh, was Mary Poppins. I remembered some film where Walt was talking about how they took every trick they had learned and put it all into one movie. I figured with Pooh we could surround him with every existing effect we could find, like the smoke ring cannon, TOT star field effect, bouncing room, backward motion, etc. using the ride system to the hilt, to give the show a cumulative "wow" effect. that could solve the passive nature of who he was and the lack of drama. It was quite controversial that we did a Big Band version of "Heffalumps and Woozles" in our dream sequence, but the scene needed to have more energy and it worked. The Sherman's approved.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I would say that Indiana Jones in Disneyland, and to a much lesser extent, Dinosaur in DAK would also qualify. Having said that, there is still not as much detail on those attractions by comparison to the slower moving AA based attractions.

True. Indy has lots of black light as Tony loves it. Dark Ride is a big term.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

yeah, that's why I said 'the idea'... not the rule It seems post-EPCOT the company has settled into dark rides only being worthy of mid-tier attractions and only larger then life or thrill experiences should be worthy of E-Ticket spending. I was questioning what you think the reasoning behind Disney's avoidance of reusing this technology has been.. Operational? Reliability? Or simply they don't build dark rides that big anymore?

Maybe World of Motion was the last great large sets, AA-laden attraction? The sets of RSRacers in the show building look great though.. some good size buildings and sets in there.

I imagine the playful world of Journey Into Imagination + the HH ride system could lead to some entertaining combinations.

Good point. I'd love to see that ride system in Imagination. Would fit perfectly.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks. That must have been fascinating ( or maybe maddening at times) to work on. I can imagine the meetings and dialogue on whot o work out the way the story would unfold as most every other attraction had a linear fairly forward going storyline where as this, while similar had so many other things going one. Were the possabilities endless or did the transportation method end up limiting the story in any manner?

You're right. It was REALLY hard to deal with 3 vehicles roaming the same set, but seeing it all from different angles. You have to hide the show lighting for almost any angle. They all had about the same amount of time to spend in the room, but had to get out of there to let the next group in. What are they seeing that adds up to the same story? How do they experience that world in a way that they all get different, yet equal experiences? How do you do this and not have it feel "pulsed" and mechanical? Lots to deal with and very hard. The distances the third vehicle had to travel to make it out of the scene in time was limiting to a degree. timing made the dialog short and travel time cut into it all even more. You were juggling all the time. We did gang two groups of Pots (6) into one double sized finale scene and that gave us some room to park vehicles in front of sets and do effects, but that was about it. I remember looking at 3D simulation models of the 3 "dots" racing from room to room wondering if this was going to be any fun! I'm really proud of our "never say die" team that actually got all this stuff to work!

We decided that all the action had to be continuous. Limited resets. It had to ok to see the other Pots in the space, but they cannot obscure you, stuff like that.
The timing was really tight and critical.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Good point. I'd love to see that ride system in Imagination. Would fit perfectly.

I think that's one thing that Disney fans can all agree on - The Hunny Hunt ride system was made for Journey Into Imagination.

 

[KevinYee]

How do you do this and not have it feel "pulsed" and mechanical? Lots to deal with and very hard.

Are the 'technical' challenges the ones that give you the greatest satisfaction when overcome? Or the artistic ones? (I would guess the latter - making do with less money and still having a great show)

Or are the two so intertwined as to be the same thing? The Mission Space spinning without feeling like spinning is both artistic and technical, for instance. Or at least it seems to me like it would be.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Are the 'technical' challenges the ones that give you the greatest satisfaction when overcome? Or the artistic ones? (I would guess the latter - making do with less money and still having a great show)

Or are the two so intertwined as to be the same thing? The Mission Space spinning without feeling like spinning is both artistic and technical, for instance. Or at least it seems to me like it would be.

Both, making the art and science work together. I'm not an engineer, so it's the conceptual challenge of making it work at the high level. Then you have to make compromises as you go along to get it all to come together. The ride system should support the show in a way that it is a critical part of it all. The centrifuge has it's drawbacks for sure, but to me, it's the right way to demonstrate that sensation of liftoff. The Horse Drawn Streetcar is the ultimate ride system for it's application. It's what ends up being natural to the show.

It's hard fun sometimes. I think it fun to solve, (design is essentially solutions) and to get to solve in a unique way is even funner.

The problem of putting a 300 seat Restaurant between the Haunted Mansion and Small World at TDL was confounding. How do you deal with that combo? What possible architectural design would work for both? You just make a mistake worse by adding a third competing element. (The real answer was to move the HM into the right land, but alas that's not in the cards.) Tony taught me to really think theatrically and to take risks. Trees usually work as a neutral land transition, so the thought that came out of that process was a to do an "unbuilding", a fake rooftop hedge maze to hide the huge building. Guests would only perceive a low castle wall as architecture, not a big statement. in the end, it would seem as if there is more green between them.

This resulted in the "Queen of Hearts Dining Hall". The team had suggested Alice (we had just investigated Dumbo and it lost) as a theme earlier. Alice as a look is immersive and aspirational. the Tea Party ride would be integrated across from it too. Made sense. In the end, it worked great, using forced perspective and rows of ever tinier hedges. I was pretty proud of that solution, even though there were detractors at the time that thought it was risky.

http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/restaurants/queen_of_hearts_banquet_hall/index.htm

 

[Daannzzz]

http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/restaurants/queen_of_hearts_banquet_hall/index.htm

Wow! That kind of looks like what they are now doing with the Be our Guest restaurant in the "expanded" Fantasyland at WDW. I wonder if they used your template for that?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Wow! That kind of looks like what they are now doing with the Be our Guest restaurant in the "expanded" Fantasyland at WDW. I wonder if they used your template for that?

Could be. QOH is a traditional Buffeteria type layout so that is pretty common. Some of the same talented team members from TDL Pooh are involved in the WDW F'land project, namely the Dwarf Mine Ride, so it's possible.

Here's a trip report with some food and kitchen shots

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201112/2789/

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Both, making the art and science work together. I'm not an engineer, so it's the conceptual challenge of making it work at the high level. Then you have to make compromises as you go along to get it all to come together. The ride system should support the show in a way that it is a critical part of it all. The centrifuge has it's drawbacks for sure, but to me, it's the right way to demonstrate that sensation of liftoff. The Horse Drawn Streetcar is the ultimate ride system for it's application. It's what ends up being natural to the show.

It's hard fun sometimes. I think it fun to solve, (design is essentially solutions) and to get to solve in a unique way is even funner.

The problem of putting a 300 seat Restaurant between the Haunted Mansion and Small World at TDL was confounding. How do you deal with that combo? What possible architectural design would work for both? You just make a mistake worse by adding a third competing element. (The real answer was to move the HM into the right land, but alas that's not in the cards.) Tony taught me to really think theatrically and to take risks. Trees usually work as a neutral land transition, so the thought that came out of that process was a to do an "unbuilding", a fake rooftop hedge maze to hide the huge building. Guests would only perceive a low castle wall as architecture, not a big statement. in the end, it would seem as if there is more green between them.

This resulted in the "Queen of Hearts Dining Hall". The team had suggested Alice (we had just investigated Dumbo and it lost) as a theme earlier. Alice as a look is immersive and aspirational. the Tea Party ride would be integrated across from it too. Made sense. In the end, it worked great, using forced perspective and rows of ever tinier hedges. I was pretty proud of that solution, even though there were detractors at the time that thought it was risky.

http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/restaurants/queen_of_hearts_banquet_hall/index.htm

LOVED that building. I didn't know you worked on it.

Very good meal, too. :king:

And obviously when I saw Beast's castle going up on the roof of the Be Our Guest restaurant, QOH banquet hall was the first thing I thought of. I even posted one of my pictures in a thread to show the similarities.

They should be giving you a spot in the credits for using your ideas after you've left them. I'm looking at YOU, trolley system in Disney Sea. :lookaroun :lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

They should be giving you a spot in the credits for using your ideas after you've left them. I'm looking at YOU, trolley system in Disney Sea. :lookaroun :lol:

HA! I was actually told by Steve Kirk that it was inspired by the one we never got to do at DLP. The funny thing about ideas is that they are not so much yours as they are your born of being able to observe and combine and arrange. (Walkie-Talkie plus Telephone equals Cellphone) I first got the idea of the El Train for Main Street by seeing it on the NY street of the "Hello Dolly!" movie set at Fox Studios. I always loved the forced perspective of the Cinderella Castle in Storybookland. From the Canal boat it really worked.

http://www.matterhorn1959.com/blog1/cinderellasdreamcastle.jpg

These examples give you the guts to try it larger as the basic principle works if you do it right and respect the proportions. You do have to make the small Castle have lots of detail to get it to really be convincing in silhouette.

 

[StageFrenzy]

Could be. QOH is a traditional Buffeteria type layout so that is pretty common. Some of the same talented team members from TDL Pooh are involved in the WDW F'land project, namely the Dwarf Mine Ride, so it's possible.

Here's a trip report with some food and kitchen shots

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201112/2789/

That is exciting, I think that ride has the potential to be a huge hit depending on execution. I hope they just don't tell Snow White's story, I want them to build on it. I like that its a unique ride system as well.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That is exciting, I think that ride has the potential to be a huge hit depending on execution. I hope they just don't tell Snow White's story, I want them to build on it. I like that its a unique ride system as well.

It should add a new dimension to Fantasyland for sure. You're right, it's all in the execution. I doubt they will try and tell the same story the old ride did. The mine can be an interesting place.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Herb Ryman Article

I reference the Disney Legend Herb Ryman often as he became a good friend of mine in the last years of his life. What a teacher! Arguably the best illustrator the company ever had. A closer friend and protege of Ryman, John Donaldson, is interviewed today and it's quite good, covering things you may be interested in and surprised to know. Herb had a life far beyond Disney and brought more to the company that he took. Donaldson has published a fascinating book that takes you through Herb's life and the eventual controversy over the fate of his work. Enjoy.

http://micechat.com/blogs/mouth-of-the-mouse/3319-warp-weft-interview-about-herb-ryman.html

John's Book.
http://incanio.com/about/index.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Atari Rules.

Anyone ever play Atari games? Here are some RARITIES you may want to look for at the next Garage Sale. Seriously cool.

http://www.retronaut.co/2012/01/alternative-atari-games/

 

[RandySavage]

(The real answer was to move the HM into the right land, but alas that's not in the cards.)

Or rather than move it, how about re-theme it (exterior & interior) to a European/fantasy/castle setting... instead of Pistol-dueling portraits you could have crossbow-dueling taspestries.

I had some fun drawing a birdseye illustration of such a re-vamp:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ACLhQLZe-IU/TzyXysPCmxI/AAAAAAAAAn0/HWm0WBN0NSY/s1600/New+FL+Tokyo+2.PNG

 

[RandySavage]

Anyone ever play Atari games? Here are some RARITIES you may want to look for at the next Garage Sale. Seriously cool.

http://www.retronaut.co/2012/01/alternative-atari-games/

I thought those were legit! Very funny. and great illustration.

 

[Jeanine]

The problem of putting a 300 seat Restaurant between the Haunted Mansion and Small World at TDL was confounding. How do you deal with that combo? What possible architectural design would work for both? You just make a mistake worse by adding a third competing element. (The real answer was to move the HM into the right land, but alas that's not in the cards.)

Which land would you have put it in? Was there a reason why HM had to go in Fantasyland? It never occurred to me that it would have been difficult to bridge the two rides like that--the Banquet Hall seems so natural there, now.

 

[RSoxNo1]

That is exciting, I think that ride has the potential to be a huge hit depending on execution. I hope they just don't tell Snow White's story, I want them to build on it. I like that its a unique ride system as well.

This came up on conversation last night, How many attractions based on movies actually tell the same story of that movie?

The Fantasyland dark rides do to a certain extent, but outside of the soon to open Under the Sea: Journey of the Little Mermaid, how many really tell the story?

This brings me to Avatar, where people always bring up the lack of an original story line in the attraction. I don't see the need for them to re-tell that story in any attractions, is that too far fetched? Forbidden Journey functions as a "best of" attraction by drawing off certain smaller storylines. Dragon Challenge has a makeshift story that's a component of a single book. The recreation of Hogsmead is no doubt impressive, but it's not retelling a full story, it's recreating an environment.

Carsland should be similar - I don't expect that in Radiator Springs Racers we will take on the role of a Cocky Lighting McQueen and then be dealt a dose of humility mid ride. I expect it to be a "best of" in the same vein as Forbidden Journey.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

This came up on conversation last night, How many attractions based on movies actually tell the same story of that movie

The Director Alfred Hitchcock supposedly said that "Movies are life with the boring parts cut out." To take it even further,when adapting a film I'd venture to say..."Rides are trailers of the Movies with the boring parts cut out". You pretty much immerse the guest into the "world" of the film and then let them do things that they wish they could do in the movie.

"Peter Pan" and "Mr. Toad" are good examples of ride design, in that "Toad" lets you be a reckless driver with consequences and "Pan" cuts right to the aspiration of flying. They do resolve themselves with an ending, but are essentially "trailers" of the movie, not a linear "Book Report". To retell the story of the movie usually disappoints in that you have no ability to do closeups or create pacing as was in the film. Imagine a movie where the camera moves at 3 feet per second and there are no closeups or edits. The equivalent of a security camera. A tracking shot. Boring. You have to design for that format. "Finding Nemo Subs" is a 15 minute pan or tracking shot with bubbles for scene changes. Rides are 360 degrees and are experiential so you take advantage of that aspect. The "world" and how unique and convincing it can be. Avatar may not translate that well to real materials so you have to consider that before embarking on that project, so you have to consider how the movie depicts that world and what you can really pull off. Some dark rides are third person (Pirates) and you observe the story, others position you as the main character with the action happening to you. Pinocchio puts you in his shoes (the cage) yet lets you observe him as well (the real boy sequence). Jiminy Cricket talks to you directly. "Indiana Jones" assumes third person, but the characters assume you are in their story and the action happens to you in their world. The talking Skull in Pirates, and the Indiana Jones AA both address you directly. Haunted Mansion of course, is all about you visiting their world guided by a host. First person. Interesting set up. Small World is a musical and you just observe it.