Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, what specifically did you work on with the Pooh attraction?

I was the creative executive responsible for leading the design and development of the TDL version. So in the beginning it was choosing the wireless ride system developed for TDS' "Aquatopia" and proposing to develop that as a free ranging dark ride to set Pooh apart as an E Ticket. This set the tone for a very challenging ride design. You then work with your team to develop the story and design of the show. I quit the company prior to opening.

 

[Daannzzz]

I was the creative executive responsible for leading the design and development of the TDL version. So in the beginning it was choosing the wireless ride system developed for TDS' "Aquatopia" and proposing to develop that as a free ranging dark ride to set Pooh apart as an E Ticket. This set the tone for a very challenging ride design. You then work with your team to develop the story and design of the show. I quit the company prior to opening.

How much of what you imagined and worked on ended up in the finale, opening attraction?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

How much of what you imagined and worked on ended up in the finale, opening attraction?

Most of it. Which is unusual. We had the budget related issues, but the big ideas all stuck as the ride system was so integrated into the show it was hard to take things out. There are things you don't anticipate like the overall pacing of the show, it's feel in some areas, things like that. The team in place did an outstanding job and they deserve the praise because they saw it through and sweated out the ride system's growing pains. I'm proudest of that show and our team, as it broke new ground technically and enjoyed an unprecedented success with incremental attendance, breaking merchandise records and repeat visitation.

 

[Daannzzz]

Most of it. Which is unusual. We had the budget related issues, but the big ideas all stuck as the ride system was so integrated into the show it was hard to take things out. There are things you don't anticipate like the overall pacing of the show, it's feel in some areas, things like that. The team in place did an outstanding job and they deserve the praise because they saw it through. I'm proudest of that show and our team, as it broke new ground technically and enjoyed an unprecedented success with incremental attendance, breaking merchandise records and repeat visitation.

Thanks. That must have been fascinating ( or maybe maddening at times) to work on. I can imagine the meetings and dialogue on whot o work out the way the story would unfold as most every other attraction had a linear fairly forward going storyline where as this, while similar had so many other things going one. Were the possabilities endless or did the transportation method end up limiting the story in any manner?

 

[thehowiet]

Most of it. Which is unusual. We had the budget related issues, but the big ideas all stuck as the ride system was so integrated into the show it was hard to take things out. There are things you don't anticipate like the overall pacing of the show, it's feel in some areas, things like that. The team in place did an outstanding job and they deserve the praise because they saw it through and sweated out the ride system's growing pains. I'm proudest of that show and our team, as it broke new ground technically and enjoyed an unprecedented success with incremental attendance, breaking merchandise records and repeat visitation.

It really is a shame that Disney has yet to bring this ride system stateside. I have never been to TDL so I have not experienced the attraction, but it's definitely a bit of a bummer that they didn't use this ride system for something like the new Little Mermaid dark ride, instead of going with the traditional omnimover. It just seems that there are so many more possibilities utilizing the trackless ride system.

Wikipedia quotes the budget for the TDL Pooh at $130 million. I wonder how that compares to the budget for the Little Mermaid. Other than higher upfront costs, are there any other major barriers or drawbacks that need to be considered with this ride system? Capacity issues, maintenance issues, etc.?

Since the R&D has already been done and it's been implemented once, you'd think that we would have seen this ride system used by Disney at least somewhere else by now.

 

[flynnibus]

I was the creative executive responsible for leading the design and development of the TDL version. So in the beginning it was choosing the wireless ride system developed for TDS' "Aquatopia" and proposing to develop that as a free ranging dark ride to set Pooh apart as an E Ticket. This set the tone for a very challenging ride design. You then work with your team to develop the story and design of the show. I quit the company prior to opening.

Eddie, what lead to chosing this ride system? Was it because of the 'wow' and possibilities.. or were there specific ambitions with the story or setting that you had that this would be the only way to achieve them?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, what lead to chosing this ride system? Was it because of the 'wow' and possibilities.. or were there specific ambitions with the story or setting that you had that this would be the only way to achieve them?

Oriental Land Company, our Japanese owner of the TDL park is risk adverse, meaning they do not like to invent anything, they prefer to buy the sequels to other proven WDI rides. Pooh was to be a new "E" level ride, and I was told to base Pooh on a system that exists (Omnimover, Test Track, etc.) I was not nuts about that as most of what was out there either didn't fit Pooh, was already in TDL, or was not a "wow" in of itself.

My thought was to use the trackless bumper boat ride they had just figured out for TDS and do more with it. Then achieve an E level "wow" by doing a dark ride with no tracks at all, where the vehicles could mirror the story by their actions. In the Blustery Day they turn and toss as if by the wind, in the Heffalump scene they dance with each other, or literally bounce up and down with Tigger, and finally exit the ride backwards, etc. Because it was supposedly based on the designed ride system of "Aquatopia" from TDS, they went for it. It seemed proven. However, once we got into it, we discovered you had to redo lots of the technology to make it do what we wanted inside of a building. In the end, it was a new system and that aspect, of sticking close to the story but using all the tricks the cars could do, and having the cars trigger special effects, made it a "wow" on a scale we did not predict.

 

[flynnibus]

Thank you for sharing that insight Eddie. That's the type of 'why' that is so interesting about attractions that we never get to see standing on the outside.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thank you for sharing that insight Eddie. That's the type of 'why' that is so interesting about attractions that we never get to see standing on the outside.

Funny how things happen isn't it? A seemingly creative "restriction" of "nothing new" turned out to be what led to a breakthrough. That ride in particular is pretty interesting to discuss, as I thought (given the guest reaction) it would become the new standard for dark rides, but oddly it never went another step. I hear they may be using that system in another show on the boards, but am not sure.

 

[flynnibus]

Funny how things happen isn't it? A seemingly creative "restriction" of "nothing new" turned out to be what led to a breakthrough. That ride in particular is pretty interesting to discuss, as I thought (given the guest reaction) it would become the new standard for dark rides, but oddly it never went another step. I hear they may be using that system in another show on the boards, but am not sure.

Following through with the mentality of 'use something proven' .. and the thought that so much of the sunk cost of a ride system has already be spent in developing the previous instruction..

What would you suspect holds the company back from reusing the technology in future rides? Is the actual cost of the vehicles dramatically high? Are there concerns over reliability or 'interference' from guest objects?

For instance we hear about how the drive by wire system used by ToT is prone to e-stopping due to guest 'debris' leaving an undesirable ride operation handicap.

Or maybe just the idea that dark rides should only be mid-tier attractions?

In the US parks, I can only think of one true dark ride built since Hunny Hunt was done, being TLM.. where all the others were probably had no choice but to reuse the existing ride system so maybe there hasn't been much opportunity? (missing any??)

Was ride capacity a significant challenge given the huge crowds TDL is notorious for? How does Hunny Hunt's system compare to other Pooh ride systems in capacity?

 

[ChrisFL]

Eddie, great info as always. Do you think a reason why it hasn't been brought stateside would be due to reliability vs. the other ride systems?

I've heard that the new Mystic Manor will have that ride system in HKDL and I really hope that is still the case.

Edit: Sorry flynnibus, didn't notice you posted almost the exact type of question I did

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Following through with the mentality of 'use something proven' .. and the thought that so much of the sunk cost of a ride system has already be spent in developing the previous instruction..

What would you suspect holds the company back from reusing the technology in future rides? Is the actual cost of the vehicles dramatically high? Are there concerns over reliability or 'interference' from guest objects?

For instance we hear about how the drive by wire system used by ToT is prone to e-stopping due to guest 'debris' leaving an undesirable ride operation handicap.

Or maybe just the idea that dark rides should only be mid-tier attractions?

In the US parks, I can only think of one true dark ride built since Hunny Hunt was done, being TLM.. where all the others were probably had no choice but to reuse the existing ride system so maybe there hasn't been much opportunity? (missing any??)

Was ride capacity a significant challenge given the huge crowds TDL is notorious for? How does Hunny Hunt's system compare to other Pooh ride systems in capacity?

I'll try and cover both of your queries.

Pooh has a pretty high capacity as you dispatch 3 "Pots" at once which is a dozen people. I think cost and reliability vs. status quo is one issue, and generally speaking, dark rides are targeted young. The thinking on the other "Pooh" stateside
shows was that you don't need it to be "that good" to please a younger target audience so why spend on it?. It's probably a 10-15M premium back then to make it the wireless "E" ride experience. To me, the system could be used in many ways and is the future of rides. TDL Pooh appeals to all ages and in Japan, even young Adults will go on a cute character ride and love it.

Here's more for those who are not familiar.
http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/poohs_hunny_hunt/index.htm

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Or maybe just the idea that dark rides should only be mid-tier attractions?

In the US parks, I can only think of one true dark ride built since Hunny Hunt was done, being TLM.. where all the others were probably had no choice but to reuse the existing ride system so maybe there hasn't been much opportunity? (missing any??)

POTC is a Dark Ride. An excellent one. Why be limited to black lights and flats when you can go beyond? They are only mid-tier because they are allowed to be that. Pooh mixes black and incandescent lighting like Knott's Beary Tales did. I used natural lighting in many areas because it worked at Knott's. You can break the mold.

 

[flynnibus]

POTC is a Dark Ride. An excellent one. Why be limited to black lights and flats when you can go beyond? They are only mid-tier because they are allowed to be that. Pooh mixes black and incandescent lighting like Knott's Beary Tales did. I used natural lighting in many areas because it worked at Knott's. You can break the mold.

yeah, that's why I said 'the idea'... not the rule It seems post-EPCOT the company has settled into dark rides only being worthy of mid-tier attractions and only larger then life or thrill experiences should be worthy of E-Ticket spending. I was questioning what you think the reasoning behind Disney's avoidance of reusing this technology has been.. Operational? Reliability? Or simply they don't build dark rides that big anymore?

Maybe World of Motion was the last great large sets, AA-laden attraction? The sets of RSRacers in the show building look great though.. some good size buildings and sets in there.

I imagine the playful world of Journey Into Imagination + the HH ride system could lead to some entertaining combinations.

 

[RandySavage]

Regarding Stateside LPS rides, in the new WDI book ("Making more magic real"), in the Little Mermaid chapter, you can see four pieces of concept art by Helen McCarthy in which the LPS system would be used for a Mermaid ride (this pre-dated the FLE). So the idea has been floated.

 

[RandySavage]

Maybe World of Motion was the last great large sets, AA-laden attraction?
.

Great Movie Ride, lastborn of doomed species in the States.

Unfortunately, the sensational Sinbad's Seven Voyages, may be the last ride worldwide populated with dozens of fully-articulated figures, because it perplexingly never drew Japanese crowds despite how brilliantly it was executed.

If rumors are to be believed, Shanghai's PotC will be changed up with new SFX scenes (e.g. Davy Jones, maelstrom), so fewer AAs (expensive to build and maintain) are required. You are seeing something similar in HKDL's haunted manor... there will likely be the AA monkey, but most of the things you see will be effects (like Hunny Hunt's smoke ring cannon).

 

[RSoxNo1]

Great Movie Ride, lastborn of doomed species in the States.

Unfortunately, the sensational Sinbad's Seven Voyages, may be the last ride worldwide populated with dozens of fully-articulated figures, because it perplexingly never drew Japanese crowds despite how brilliantly it was executed.

If rumors are to be believed, Shanghai's PotC will be changed up with new SFX scenes (e.g. Davy Jones, maelstrom), so fewer AAs (expensive to build and maintain) are required. You are seeing something similar in HKDL's haunted manor... there will likely be the AA monkey, but most of the things you see will be effects (like Hunny Hunt's smoke ring cannon).

I would say that Indiana Jones in Disneyland, and to a much lesser extent, Dinosaur in DAK would also qualify. Having said that, there is still not as much detail on those attractions by comparison to the slower moving AA based attractions.

 

[WDW1974]

Lots of questions.

I figured you could handle it. Besides, you could always use some of it in a book on quality design!

Hmm. I am not planning to attend DLP April 12th anniversary. I don't handle Tony's travel ;-) but knowing him as I do, I can't imagine him not being there for a seminal event like that.

It's a shame the whole Euro Disney design team isn't regrouping (and I'd never expect a company like Disney to actually pay to have y'all there). You guys did an absolutely breathtaking job and created a template for what a 21st century MK-style park should look like ... seriously! Too bad they threw that out when it came time to build in HK.

DCA.

During design, I was not a DCA fan (I did not think it went far enough to be Disney) and did not work on it. I tossed out some ideas but that was it.

Really? Didn't know that. Anything you can toss out here? even in the broadest terms?

The park was creatively built on the business notion that you could get tourists to stay overnight and sub Disney's California for the real one up the 5 in Hollywood. It did not come from the drive to create the park that would compete or beat DL or the "next level". I liked the idea of doing wild design and creating an abstract of California, but IMHO it would have to be as art is, so unique it stood on it's own to defy comparison and the quality would have to be there. The management seemed to be trying to do the park as the Disney Stores were done, on the coattails of the company's reputation. After DLP, why in the world would you want to work on that? I was on TDL doing Pooh where they spent real money and did it right. At the time I thought it was risky to do something less next to DL, BUT it's all in the execution. Done well with a lush budget (as it's being done now) Paradise Pier could be very nice, and the GP Rapids was done to that level. DCA had some nice elements but would it come together? what would it feel like seeing those buildings? You want things to work, but like the Tomorrowland that was being done at the same time, the money was unreasonably tight. You have to stop at some point as you can only do so much with a budget.

I think I went down there the first week or something and it struck me that emotionally something was very off. I felt like I was still in the parking lot. Some areas were really well done while others were at the execution level of A Marriot's Great America type park. The lack of immersion (seeing high rises) killed any escape I could have felt. I had friends that gave their heart and soul to that project and made a lot happen for the tiny budgets they were given too. It wasn't enough. DCA's flaws weren't something you could easily design your way out of, there was little or no Disney soul. No escape. If it was a Six Flags it would have been their best, but next to DL? A let down. The real California was more outrageous and interesting than what was there. I felt that they over promised and under delivered, despite the fact that there were many good things and pretty elements within the park. The Eureka parade confirmed that the theme was just not working.

Interesting. My feelings very much mirror yours. I recall being invited for a special tour on the day WDI turned it over to TDA Ops and thinking there has to be more than this ... and that so much is so cold. Your old pal Tim D was supposed to give me a tour of PP and security wouldn't allow it (some reason about construction dangers when absolutely nothing major was happening, it was bizarre). I just kept hoping I'd turn a corner and there would be something major I missed and that never happened. Then I sat and lied and told Cynthia and George (and a few others) how 'great' it all looked (what do you say when the place is about six weeks from previews and has all the charm of the Del Amo Mall pre-renovation of about 5-6 years ago!)

I actually loved the Eureka Parade though. It was fun and funky and flaky (sorta like California is). All it lacked was adding one Disney character on each float. Instead they destroyed it and brought back the relic that is now playing at WDW.

Paramount in Spain

I have no knowledge to base this on, but would be surprised if anything Paramount would do could rival TDS. It takes guts to spend that much and the experience to be that confident. I wonder if OLC would spend that much again.

I need to recheck where the money is coming from ... it's a total license job as Paramount/Viacom has no desire to be in the parks business (considering they used to own 3 or 4) ... but the word leaking out on it is very, very good.

 

[WDW1974]

I'll try and cover both of your queries.

Pooh has a pretty high capacity as you dispatch 3 "Pots" at once which is a dozen people. I think cost and reliability vs. status quo is one issue, and generally speaking, dark rides are targeted young. The thinking on the other "Pooh" stateside
shows was that you don't need it to be "that good" to please a younger target audience so why spend on it?. It's probably a 10-15M premium back then to make it the wireless "E" ride experience. To me, the system could be used in many ways and is the future of rides. TDL Pooh appeals to all ages and in Japan, even young Adults will go on a cute character ride and love it.

Here's more for those who are not familiar.
http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/poohs_hunny_hunt/index.htm

I said it on Eddie's first thread and will repeat here, but the attraction is a masterpiece and shows you can make an E-Ticket out of any source material ... just a great, great ride ... and pathetic that well over a decade later that ride system hasn't made it stateside, but will be appearing in HKDL's Mystic Manor and DSP's Ratatouille rides soon.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

DCA ideas..

Really? Didn't know that. Anything you can toss out here? even in the broadest terms?

Here's something posted previous about The Orange Stinger ride.


"I thought the Orange as a concept was way more unique, but too cheaply executed to make it Disney quality. I think you must know that i proposed that thing, but being made of pictorial (california icons) stained glass and internally lit so it sent shafts of light and color everywhere. It was supposed to be the park's icon with a ride inside of it over water. So I'm biased as to what it could have been. The Silly Swings is a good attraction (my kids love it) and the open feel is really magical, it works. The carousel rounding boards look of it is too close to the "off the shelf" catalog version for my taste. Ideally, they could have changed the design and made it a tad more unique, as the ride itself is really wonderful. It's called the "wave swinger" in most amusement parks and that's all that Paradise Pier is promising to recall, so it's fine."