Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes, I remember it well, because my dad worked in that computer room and sometimes I'd see him working (I was 4 years old) and say "there's daddy!"

I wasn't surprised at all though, when they killed that song and made it "Backstage Magic"...a much less annoying show.

Wow. What a thrill that was to see your own Dad in the future! Mine worked at Sears when I was 4.

 

[AEfx]

One of the things I loved about Epcot Center as a kid was that it was the first time I saw things like solar energy, touchscreens, etc. It was exciting. I would love to see stuff like this at Epcot again.

One of my best memories of my 2nd trip at 10 years old was making a dining reservation at the Living Seas for dinner from the video screen kiosks under SSE. I see why it's not practical these days, but it was quite fun back then - "Can they really see us?" LOL.

 

[Jeanine]

Just returned from five days in Paris (four of which were spent at Disney). The resort is showing some rough edges, but it's still a fantastic destination. Pirates, Mansion, Thunder, Pan, Snow White: still the best versions of those rides on the planet.

Hey--I just got back from a trip to Tokyo Disney! It was awesome, although I am sentimentally attached to my memories of a less character-driven DisneySea.

May I ask a non-design question? I'm planning to go along with the Disneyana group to Paris this next year and they're offering a general tour of Paris you can add on to the package. I've already been to Paris a couple of times, so I've seen most of the major sites...but it sounds like there isn't much around the DLP area to sight-see otherwise? Would you recommend a general tour of Paris for a free day, or another day in the parks (I think they're planning on a 3-day park ticket) or something else?

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

One of my best memories of my 2nd trip at 10 years old was making a dining reservation at the Living Seas for dinner from the video screen kiosks under SSE. I see why it's not practical these days, but it was quite fun back then - "Can they really see us?" LOL.

Again, you never forgot the "detail" of having that screen in the first place. All of those little things accumulate to tell you that you are not in the real world. the best things in the world are usually not practical.

Venice, Italy with its maze of streets and foot bridges is not very "practical" but we love it for those reasons. The leaning tower of Pisa would go unnoticed if it was perfectly vertical. The Eiffel Tower today serves no purpose than to iconically exist and give you a view of the city. Emotionally practical! that's why the business side of the company is always a threat and a safeguard as it can streamline the fun out of things in an effort to ensure the fiscal survival of the enterprise. When the deletions for fiscal survival erodes the reason people show up in the first place, it beings a death spiral.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Must see video.

Yes, I remember it well, because my dad worked in that computer room and sometimes I'd see him working (I was 4 years old) and say "there's daddy!"

I wasn't surprised at all though, when they killed that song and made it "Backstage Magic"...a much less annoying show.

Here's an interesting post from ProgressCityUSA. Video of the opening ceremonies of that show.. Suited Executives hosting the pomp of Cleopatra, set in the Greek Theater of Logan's Run. Once it gets too heady and abstract, they shift into Vaudeville. It really conveys the higher purpose of EPCOT and the conflicted nature of Disney trying to be credible and fun at the same time.

http://progresscityusa.com/2009/12/22/celebrate-celebrate-october-18th-1982/

 

[yankspy]

Again, you never forgot the "detail" of having that screen in the first place. All of those little things accumulate to tell you that you are not in the real world. the best things in the world are usually not practical.

Venice, Italy with its maze of streets and foot bridges is not very "practical" but we love it for those reasons. The leaning tower of Pisa would go unnoticed if it was perfectly vertical. The Eiffel Tower today serves no purpose than to iconically exist and give you a view of the city. Emotionally practical! that's why the business side of the company is always a threat and a safeguard as it can streamline the fun out of things in an effort to ensure the fiscal survival of the enterprise. When the deletions for fiscal survival erodes the reason people show up in the first place, it beings a death spiral.

Well put. This reminds me of our Architectural discussion a few pages back. You could a practical library and it would look rather plain or you could build something ornate and beautiful and people will remember and enjoy it.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well put. This reminds me of our Architectural discussion a few pages back. You could a practical library and it would look rather plain or you could build something ornate and beautiful and people will remember and enjoy it.

I think detail for it's own sake is a bit frivolous, but when it serves a bigger idea, then you have something that in total is awe inspiring. The video screen interface mentioned before symbolized a futuristic process and so it was memorable, but more often than not, you'll find excess detail that is just there because they thought they needed something to fill space.

 

[RandySavage]

Regarding practicality versus wonder in architecture (and theme parks), I am always brought back to the classic example of NYC's Penn Station.

The original waiting room:

Demolished in the 60s to make way for the new, more practical station with money-generating arena & offices over it:

And the great associated quote: "Once, one entered the city like a god, now one scuttles in like a rat."

I don't think most people are consciously aware of how much the quality of their environment (built & natural) affects them, but it does, constantly on a subconscious level... including theme parks. Not saying historic ornament is a requisite for quality, as the new World Trade Center transit center shows:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Regarding practicality versus wonder in architecture (and theme parks), I am always brought back to the classic example of NYC's Penn Station.

The original waiting room:

Demolished in the 60s to make way for the new, more practical station with money-generating arena & offices over it:

And the great associated quote: "Once, one entered the city like a god, now one scuttles in like a rat."

I don't think most people are consciously aware of how much the quality of their environment (built & natural) affects them, but it does, constantly on a subconscious level... including theme parks. Not saying historic ornament is a requisite for quality, as the new World Trade Center transit center shows:

Really good examples. I think that grand public spaces are reassuring as it is a sign of the health of the society that lives in them. Soaring optimistic spaces that celebrate their function and vitality are better than dark fascist halls that make you feel dominated and hopeless.

 

[Jeanine]

Just returned from five days in Paris (four of which were spent at Disney). The resort is showing some rough edges, but it's still a fantastic destination. Pirates, Mansion, Thunder, Pan, Snow White: still the best versions of those rides on the planet.

Say--I just came back from Tokyo Disney to see the Anniversary stuff. Awesome trip, as always, but I nostalgically cling to my memories of a less character-driven DisneySea.

Anyone with any thoughts on how many days someone should take to do DLP? I'm hoping to go on the Disneyana trip out there next year--they're offering a 3-day ticket, with an optional day trip into Paris. I've been to Paris a couple times (years ago,) and not sure whether I need to do another bus tour of it...but they tell me there's not much else to see in the general DLP area. Any other thoughts on what to do with an extra day or two?

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[yankspy]

I think detail for it's own sake is a bit frivolous, but when it serves a bigger idea, then you have something that in total is awe inspiring. The video screen interface mentioned before symbolized a futuristic process and so it was memorable, but more often than not, you'll find excess detail that is just there because they thought they needed something to fill space.

Understood. I used a library as an example because I believe a fancy one does serve a bigger idea. It says that there is something special in here.

Regarding practicality versus wonder in architecture (and theme parks), I am always brought back to the classic example of NYC's Penn Station.

The original waiting room:

Demolished in the 60s to make way for the new, more practical station with money-generating arena & offices over it:

And the great associated quote: "Once, one entered the city like a god, now one scuttles in like a rat."

I don't think most people are consciously aware of how much the quality of their environment (built & natural) affects them, but it does, constantly on a subconscious level... including theme parks. Not saying historic ornament is a requisite for quality, as the new World Trade Center transit center shows:

My Parents always talked about the old Penn Station and how it was a shame that it was demolished. I believe there is a section in the book called "The Power Broker " about the old station and its destruction.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Jeffrey Katzenberg lecture. Amazing

This lecture covers Dreamworks intel technology collaboration and the future as they see it. Very impressive. Worth the watch.

http://shocklee.com/2011/11/jeffrey...n-on-being-on-the-cutting-edge-of-technology/

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Early color film. The past becomes real.

To many of us the past lives via black and white. It seems to be locked away in that state, but back then there was color of course and the last century was the first in human history to be able to record itself in that way. We are the first to be able to look back at history via film. Just thought we'd see what 1897 or 1913 looked like in COLOR. Here's a brief clip of a test and this reality brings the past to life. If you have seen the movie HUGO, this will mean something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQSJKCkZ8sI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGLKRlYcD1c&feature=related

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Model Railroad of Natures Wonderland Ride.

Passion has no limits, and here's a site that shows the progress of something I dreamed of doing as a kid but never got to. I did cut up business cards to make buildings and hand painted an an entire model of the park. No budget but high passion!

If you know of the predecessor to BTM at DL, the "Nature's Wonderland Mine Train", here's the animated layout of that classic attraction in progress.

http://nwrr.blogspot.com/2010/03/nwrr-project.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

What happened to good design?

Rant warning. If you don't like knit picking, then don't subject yourself to my whining. In the end, I do think it's rather constructive if you are into graphic design.

I saw this new WDW Emporium (Block-porium?) Map and was kind of shocked at the graphic design. Graphics are there to communicate and excite. IMO this one, albeit easy to read, missed the boat for other reasons. We used to create rich illustrations that showed the guest versus telling them (language barrier) and this art features dragged in Ryman Art and block diagrams. No pretty icons or illustrations of the merchandise types or anything. Borders within borders. The space seems underutilized and the fact that you are already inside the store negates the need to show Main Street, not to mention the minuscule "You are here" icon which is the most important starting point for someone finding their way orients you NSEW. The banners could have been over pretty illustrations of each zone so the whole sign could been an isometric map like the old park maps. It's fine, just a missed opportunity. It feels like it came from the operations management because they don't like telling guests where things are, so there are signs to help them find the generic departments.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/album.php?albumid=1579

 

[Mickey_777]

Rant warning. If you don't like knit picking, then don't subject yourself to my whining. In the end, I do think it's rather constructive if you are into graphic design.

I saw this new WDW Emporium (Block-porium?) Map and was kind of shocked at the graphic design. Graphics are there to communicate and excite. IMO this one, albeit easy to read, missed the boat for other reasons. We used to create rich illustrations that showed the guest versus telling them (language barrier) and this art features dragged in Ryman Art and block diagrams. No pretty icons or illustrations of the merchandise types or anything. Borders within borders. The space seems underutilized and the fact that you are already inside the store negates the need to show Main Street, not to mention the minuscule "You are here" icon which is the most important starting point for someone finding their way orients you NSEW. The banners could have been over pretty illustrations of each zone so the whole sign could been an isometric map like the old park maps. It's fine, just a missed opportunity. It feels like it came from the operations management because they don't like telling guests where things are, so there are signs to help them find the generic departments.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/album.php?albumid=1579

I think you nailed it right on the head with your idea of how the map should've/could've looked.

As a graphic designer myself, I too found the new emporium maps to be very underwhelming. The overall design is just enough that you can tell a graphics professional did them but it's a pretty half hearted job. This can be attributed to a couple of things. I've found (many times even in my personal experience) that designers have become so acustomed to the computer that they rarely sit down with a pencil and pad just to brainstorm. Instead of sketching and doing a bunch of thumbnails, they'll just sit in front of a blank screen/canvas until they come up with something "good enough". I've been guity of this as well. There's nothing like going crazy with the sketch pad until you really fall in love with that one design/concept. THEN you take it to the computer and make it digital. It could also be the case where this particular designer (I can't imagine they used more than one person) was given a very short dedline to get this done. The art director is also just as culpable for approving the design if you ask me.

 

[thehowiet]

Rant warning. If you don't like knit picking, then don't subject yourself to my whining. In the end, I do think it's rather constructive if you are into graphic design.

I saw this new WDW Emporium (Block-porium?) Map and was kind of shocked at the graphic design. Graphics are there to communicate and excite. IMO this one, albeit easy to read, missed the boat for other reasons. We used to create rich illustrations that showed the guest versus telling them (language barrier) and this art features dragged in Ryman Art and block diagrams. No pretty icons or illustrations of the merchandise types or anything. Borders within borders. The space seems underutilized and the fact that you are already inside the store negates the need to show Main Street, not to mention the minuscule "You are here" icon which is the most important starting point for someone finding their way orients you NSEW. The banners could have been over pretty illustrations of each zone so the whole sign could been an isometric map like the old park maps. It's fine, just a missed opportunity. It feels like it came from the operations management because they don't like telling guests where things are, so there are signs to help them find the generic departments.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/album.php?albumid=1579

Not to mention that the sign says "Cinderella's Castle" instead of the correct "Cinderella Castle."

 

[RandySavage]

The banners could have been over pretty illustrations of each zone so the whole sign could been an isometric map like the old park maps.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/album.php?albumid=1579

Thanks for bringing it up. It is a perfect opportunity to add art to the park for general enjoyment (who doesn't like a cool, illustrated cutaway) and create the needed infographic for ops at the same time.

The Map, as you said, ought to have been a 3-D isometric richly illustrated in that Victorian style:

After reading Eddie's post, I drew this very rough, ten-minute sketch of the direction the graphic could/should have gone.

Mine is not a quality drawing, but illustrates the idea: You see the entire Emporium in an isometric cutaway with the illustration telling the story in the time period (gentleman getting fitted by tailor for a waistcoat in the men's section, children in dresses playing with dollhouse in the toy section, etc.). The copy would also be period and describe each area for those who need clarification.

I sometimes scratch my head when I see things that look like they could have been outsourced to local Orlando high schoolers:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think you nailed it right on the head with your idea of how the map should've/could've looked.

As a graphic designer myself, I too found the new emporium maps to be very underwhelming. The overall design is just enough that you can tell a graphics professional did them but it's a pretty half hearted job. This can be attributed to a couple of things. I've found (many times even in my personal experience) that designers have become so acustomed to the computer that they rarely sit down with a pencil and pad just to brainstorm. Instead of sketching and doing a bunch of thumbnails, they'll just sit in front of a blank screen/canvas until they come up with something "good enough". I've been guity of this as well. There's nothing like going crazy with the sketch pad until you really fall in love with that one design/concept. THEN you take it to the computer and make it digital. It could also be the case where this particular designer (I can't imagine they used more than one person) was given a very short dedline to get this done. The art director is also just as culpable for approving the design if you ask me.

All true and pretty close to what usually happens. I dont want to criticize the designer so much as what could be done in the process, and as you point out, there are many reasons for why something turns out the way it does. In the world of theme design one step that even comes before the rough sketches is research, you look at how they did it back in the day and see how composition was done then, the fonts used and tone of voice in the nomenclature. We ask people to pay to see the things we put behind the turnstile, so to me that was always intimidation enough to think that everything you see should be worth the price of admission or its not approved. Not the most eleborate as even the simplest thing can be special and elegant. Maybe even...FUN! Good thoughts.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for bringing it up. It is a perfect opportunity to add art to the park for general enjoyment (who doesn't like a cool, illustrated cutaway) and create the needed infographic for ops at the same time.

The Map, as you said, ought to have been a 3-D isometric richly illustrated in that Victorian style:

After reading Eddie's post, I drew this very rough, ten-minute sketch of the direction the graphic could/should have gone.

Mine is not a quality drawing, but illustrates the idea: You see the entire Emporium in an isometric cutaway with the illustration telling the story in the time period (gentleman getting fitted by tailor for a waistcoat in the men's sectiont you took the time to illustrate how you , children in dresses playing with dollhouse in the toy section, etc.). The copy would also be period and describe each area for those who need clarification.

I sometimes scratch my head when I see things that look like they could have been outsourced to local Orlando high schoolers:

Wow! How impressive that you took the time to generate original art to make your point! how many threads have that?
You nailed the concept on the head as it could be very fun and also intriguing to explore the store when shown in isometric! I like how the art is integrated into the text as one idea, that way you have less negative space and it is satisfying to look at! Thank you!