Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[lazyboy97o]

As for the second point: they could easily address this by placing a bunch of solar panels on the roof of the large space and maybe even add some themed wind turbines (the base has to get power from somewhere). So they could kill two birds with one stone here. Actually providing power and getting a little credit for being "responsible" which again ties into the storyline.

That still would not even get all that close to matching the power needs of the building. Passive systems would also likely be limited by the desire to maintain show.

 

[ob1thx1138]

That still would not even get all that close to matching the power needs of the building. Passive systems would also likely be limited by the desire to maintain show.

That's the thing. They don't have to actually offset all the power consumed, just showing that they made some effort will make them look good to most people.

And the passive systems could be easily integrated to be part of the show.

"Here at Pandora Base 1 we are using the power of the wind and sun to supply power to these facilities in an attempt live in harmony with the Pandoran environment"

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That's the thing. They don't have to actually offset all the power consumed, just showing that they made some effort will make them look good to most people.

And the passive systems could be easily integrated to be part of the show.

"Here at Pandora Base 1 we are using the power of the wind and sun to supply power to these facilities in an attempt live in harmony with the Pandoran environment"

Ha! They could always put the show in the Energy Pavilion, it already has a jungle and solar panels!

 

[S.E.A.]

Yea just like Brave heart, Gladiator, the patriot, Dances With Wolves, Pocahontas, Fern Gully, etc....

Get over it. Similar stories will be told and retold over and over with different characters and different settings. If you can come up with a unique setting and visualization for a classic story then you could make millions in the movie industry.

Every classic Disney movie that everyone places on such a high pedestal is just a retelling of a classic fairy tale. Often times watered down and sanitized for a younger audience. Yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

that's no excuse for how utterly uninspiring and trite the movie turned out to be. The difference between Avatar and those movies you mentioned is that the other movies made far more interesting choices when it came to telling their respective stories. Even Disney's Pocahontas is fundamentally a better movie just given how subtly it handled its message making it more character based than the very overt way they did on Avatar, not to mention Pocahontas, for a Disney movie, was mature enough to understand that the main characters can't live happily ever after. John Smith wasn't magically healed by grandmother willow's bark and decided to stay behind to live a life with Pocahontas.

 

[thehowiet]

One great thing about being an online columnist: people email you. Got a message today from someone who may be an insider (I'm not certain) saying that not only is my suspected plot of land correct (behind Dinoland), but that Dino-Rama would be ripped out in the process.

In retrospect, this makes perfect sense. Dino-Rama is a blight on the park - even the Imagineers know it. Avatar makes a perfect excuse for removing that blight.

Great article Kevin! I think you brought up a lot of interesting points, both positive and negative.

The only issue I see with AK expanding eastward behind Dinoland is that in the RCID 2020 plan much of that land is listed as unsuitable for development and is below the 100 year flood plain. It is also listed as conservation.

Are these land designations (unsuitable, conservation, etc.) set in stone, or can they be modified as new development plans are created?

 

[jt04]

One great thing about being an online columnist: people email you. Got a message today from someone who may be an insider (I'm not certain) saying that not only is my suspected plot of land correct (behind Dinoland), but that Dino-Rama would be ripped out in the process.

In retrospect, this makes perfect sense. Dino-Rama is a blight on the park - even the Imagineers know it. Avatar makes a perfect excuse for removing that blight.

One could even concoct a connection between dinosaurs (pterodachtyls) and the flying dragon things in Avatar.

There was a rumor early on that the Dinosaur ride could be converted into an attraction that would be incorporated into AvatarLand. This makes sense for a few reasons. If Dinorama is going than the entire land may be on the chopping block. It has always been a bit of a placeholder anyway. Second, the ride is a maintenance nightmare. New, less complicated ride vehicles and all new show elements could actually save the mouse money. By using existing infrastructure it allows more development dollars to go elsewhere within AvatarLand. It also gives the new land an E ticket level structure. As you have pointed out this area is also near the parking lot which allows for a end of the day show for DAK.

Concerning the first point: The military was not involved it was a mercenary force funded by a major corporation. Think Halliburton, not US Army.

Also the plot of the second and third movie may involve the humans working with the aliens against a common enemy or attempting to bring balance back to the planet.

As for the second point: they could easily address this by placing a bunch of solar panels on the roof of the large space and maybe even add some themed wind turbines (the base has to get power from somewhere). So they could kill two birds with one stone here. Actually providing power and getting a little credit for being "responsible" which again ties into the storyline.

Excellent posting (except for the uneducated Halliburton comparisson) I was going to post pretty much the same thing but get tired of correcting his errors. Don't forget nuclear derived power which produces no CO2. Also, concentrated solar technology looks promising as a way to produce air conditioning in a "green" way. On a side note, plants love CO2 and I have a sneaking suspicion they are happy to 'consume' all the CO2 mankind could ever produce for them. It makes them happy! :sohappy: And explains perfectly why the increasing CO2 levels some scientists predicted have not happened. And the sky is not falling either by the way. :lol:

Great article Kevin! I think you brought up a lot of interesting points, both positive and negative.

The only issue I see with AK expanding eastward behind Dinoland is that in the RCID 2020 plan much of that land is listed as unsuitable for development and is below the 100 year flood plain. It is also listed as conservation.

Are these land designations (unsuitable, conservation, etc.) set in stone, or can they be modified as new development plans are created?

You need to read up on the Disney Wilderness Conservation area. Disney bought and rehabilitated the area to offset wetlands lost when WDW was built out. There is plenty more of these areas in central Florida that Disney could do the same with that would be far more beneficial as it relates to conservation than the area near DAK that you are referring to. Well worth the trade off IMO.

 

[jakeman]

There was a rumor early on that the Dinosaur ride could be converted into an attraction that would be incorporated into AvatarLand. This makes sense for a few reasons. If Dinorama is going than the entire land may be on the chopping block. It has always been a bit of a placeholder anyway. Second, the ride is a maintenance nightmare. New, less complicated ride vehicles and all new show elements could actually save the mouse money. By using existing infrastructure it allows more development dollars to go elsewhere within AvatarLand. It also gives the new land an E ticket level structure. As you have pointed out this area is also near the parking lot which allows for a end of the day show for DAK.

Just a quick point of clarification.

Dinoland was not ever considered a placeholder. For the original vision of the park it was Animals that Were (Dinoland), Animals that Are (everything else), Animals that Will Never Be (Beastly Kingdom).

That theme is evident on the ticket counters outside the park and on the original park logo (both feature a dinosaur, a dragon, and an elephant).

Furthermore Dinoland has a fully fleshed out (albeit poorly communicated) story involving both The Dino Institute and Chester and Hesters.

Camp Minnie Mickey is your placeholder, not Dinoland.

Just to head you off jt, because I know that you like to stick to your theories regardless of whatever counter argument is brought forth, the above about Dinoland is straight from DAK orientation back when the park first opened. So if you take umbrage with it you should take it up with the mouse.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Just a quick point of clarification.

Dinoland was not ever considered a placeholder. For the original vision of the park it was Animals that Were (Dinoland), Animals that Are (everything else), Animals that Will Never Be (Beastly Kingdom).

That theme is evident on the ticket counters outside the park and on the original park logo (both feature a dinosaur, a dragon, and an elephant).

Good point. Now you have a statement worth comparing incoming content to. Interesting. No, I never read that before but should have.

I'm glad that Dinoland may become extinct.

 

[jakeman]

Good point. Now you have a statement worth comparing incoming content to. Interesting. No, I never read that before but should have.

I'm glad that Dinoland may become extinct.

I think the story is both one of the more interesting ones around property, but also the most poorly conveyed.

It's a great land full of inside jokes if you know what you are looking for, but for the casual visitor (and not so casual), it's just a mash up of what appears to be junk.

I'll confess I don't even know how to begin to fix it, but I would hate for them to trash the whole place without trying.

 

[jt04]

I think the story is both one of the more interesting ones around property, but also the most poorly conveyed.

It's a great land full of inside jokes if you know what you are looking for, but for the casual visitor (and not so casual), it's just a mash up of what appears to be junk.

I'll confess I don't even know how to begin to fix it, but I would hate for them to trash the whole place without trying.

They could start by building an entirely new DinoLand somewhere else at DAK at some point in the future. One a little less cheesy perhaps. Weightier but still fun. And while I agree with your point that DinoLand is a real land it has always functioned as a 'placeholder' to the vast majority of guests. I appreciate the talent and effort made to produce it, I just would love to see the area repurposed by something new and improved. More DisneySea-esque than Mickey's BirthdayLand.

 

[KevinYee]

I'd like to see them keep Dinoland but lose Dino-Rama. Use that area for transition to Pandora. Maybe they need to install a giant Stargate there to function as transition. Or the Guardian of Forever (which is basically a Stargate too).

Yes, ^ this is tongue in cheek!

 

[ob1thx1138]

I'd like to see them keep Dinoland but lose Dino-Rama. Use that area for transition to Pandora. Maybe they need to install a giant Stargate there to function as transition. Or the Guardian of Forever (which is basically a Stargate too).

Yes, ^ this is tongue in cheek!

You know I have been trying to think of a way to "transport" a large number of people to and from Pandora and so far the star gate idea has been the only one that seems plausible. But I imagine it more like the rainbow tunnel. have a large covered walkway with some sort of light show going on that gives you the impression that you are walking through a worm hole from Earth to Pandora. It could be a pretty neat little attraction in itself sort of like the large overhead screen in Vegas, only all around you.

 

[Alektronic]

One great thing about being an online columnist: people email you. Got a message today from someone who may be an insider (I'm not certain) saying that not only is my suspected plot of land correct (behind Dinoland), but that Dino-Rama would be ripped out in the process.

In retrospect, this makes perfect sense. Dino-Rama is a blight on the park - even the Imagineers know it. Avatar makes a perfect excuse for removing that blight.

One could even concoct a connection between dinosaurs (pterodachtyls) and the flying dragon things in Avatar.

They have been looking to replace Primeval Whirl for a while now. But it wasn't cost effective and still ended up with a cheap carny type coaster.

I would like to see the whole Dino-Rama replaced also, but it wouldn't work as a transition either because of the Marina behind it.

I don't see any part of the park being used outside the perimeter road, especially when they have many expansion plots inside the perimeter road.
Maybe a resort sometime in the future.

 

[trs518]

I find it very interesting that many of the things I see proposed for Avatar/Pandora would have worked will in Dinoland with some minor substitutions; mainly animals represented.

If they would have built Dinoland correctly, they might not have needed Avatar/Pandora. I understand that Dinosaurs don't have the cachet of Avatar/Pandora, but it would have probably been cheaper.

 

[GLaDOS]

I'd hate to see all of Dinoland leave. Dino-rama can leave ASAP, but I think Dinoland is a necessary part of DAK.

If anything, I'd want to see Dino-rama scrapped and Dinoland expanded with a slower-paced Dino AA attraction and a few more exhibits.

 

[RSoxNo1]

One great thing about being an online columnist: people email you. Got a message today from someone who may be an insider (I'm not certain) saying that not only is my suspected plot of land correct (behind Dinoland), but that Dino-Rama would be ripped out in the process.

In retrospect, this makes perfect sense. Dino-Rama is a blight on the park - even the Imagineers know it. Avatar makes a perfect excuse for removing that blight.

One could even concoct a connection between dinosaurs (pterodachtyls) and the flying dragon things in Avatar.

I'd like to see them keep Dinoland but lose Dino-Rama. Use that area for transition to Pandora. Maybe they need to install a giant Stargate there to function as transition. Or the Guardian of Forever (which is basically a Stargate too).

Yes, ^ this is tongue in cheek!

Dinoland USA is not the problem, it's Dino-Rama that's the problem. I'd be surprised to see it replaced, but I would absolutely welcome it. It probably wouldn't address capacity issues in that park as much as putting Avatar in the North of Kali plot or South of Camp Minnie Mickey plot, but it would also function as addition by subtraction.

Dinorama was added to the park as quantity not quality. The hope is that Avatar would be adding both quantity and quality - if it replaces Dinorama sure, you may have a lateral move on quantity (or a marginal increase), but the quality should be increased tremendously.

I would not be heartbroken at all to see the bulldozers line up in Dinorama, it just seems somewhat surprising after the lengthy refurbishment of Primeval Whirl. The attraction reopened from a 9 month refurb/investigation 3 days before the announcement.

 

[njDizFan]

Interesting Rumor Kevin, this is the first I have heard of the Eastbound expansion of DAK. I can see the positives, being they can repurpose Dino-o-Rama, which most of us feel is not quite up to Disney standards. Distance themselves from most of the animal exhibits. And eliminate the difficulties getting to the back of the park.

But the negatives seem to be greater. First why waste the viable expansion pad that already exists. The land is clear and ready to go. Also CMM is basically just a placeholder, begging to be re-imagineered. Not to mention the environmental impacts of the nearby wetlands.

Also, how could they expand eastbound, remove DoR but keep Dinosaur. Is this even possible? I guess they would have to remove Dinosaur which would eliminate 1 of the total 6 "rides" in the park, which would be quite a blow. Should be an interesting few years coming up.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Interesting Rumor Kevin, this is the first I have heard of the Eastbound expansion of DAK. I can see the positives, being they can repurpose Dino-o-Rama, which most of us feel is not quite up to Disney standards. Distance themselves from most of the animal exhibits. And eliminate the difficulties getting to the back of the park.

But the negatives seem to be greater. First why waste the viable expansion pad that already exists. The land is clear and ready to go. Also CMM is basically just a placeholder, begging to be re-imagineered. Not to mention the environmental impacts of the nearby wetlands.

Also, how could they expand eastbound, remove DoR but keep Dinosaur. Is this even possible? I guess they would have to remove Dinosaur which would eliminate 1 of the total 6 "rides" in the park, which would be quite a blow. Should be an interesting few years coming up.

Here's a DAK map from March 2001, before the entire DinoRama expansion:
http://www.florida-project.com/images/guidebook/AK/2001v1/animal-kingdom-guidemap-march-2001-11.jpg

Here's a DAK map from September 2001, prior to Primeval Whirl:
http://www.florida-project.com/images/guidebook/AK/2001v2/animal-kingdom-guidemap-late-2001-09.jpg

The park opened without the carnival atmosphere in the area, and it Dinoland USA was a quality land. Like every other land in the park it needed more attractions, but what was there was not an eyesore.

I'm all for leveling DinoRama and putting something else in it's place, but I do feel that an expansion to Dinoland down the road would be a better approach to this area with Pandora going elsewhere.

 

[WDW1974]

Tom Sawyer Island is a great example to quote as a parallel. How many people can recite the plot? Who buys Tom Sawyer merch in Target? Aren't there controversial subjects and forbidden words in that IP?

That is a good example. I do wonder how many kids (and adults) even read the book any longer? I recall a recent effort to sanitize it by removing a certain word (and I have a HUGE issue with messing with works of art to make them PC for today's audiences).

The reality is, if the environment delivers, that's all that matters. It's all that ever matters. Avatar already has this going for it: millions of moviegoers wanted to visit that place. Sounds like something a theme park ought to build.

I don't know about that. There needs to be substance, not just kewl enviornments. No park delivers on amazing vistas like DAK does now. Still, the park doesn't have the best word of mouth and closes 90% of the year at 5 or 6 p.m.

Pandora can't simply be pretty. Look at WWoHP, it looks damn amazing ... but it also delivers in every thematic sense from attractions to entertainment to food to merchandise.

As to moviegoers wanting to go, I bet you could say the same for Oz over the years ... or any of the Star Wars destinations ... or countless others. I'm just not sure this is the no-brainer that some see it as.

The film had a very cold vibe to me (and many others) ... and I know Eddie said something about Avatar feeling more like a Universal property than a Disney one. I agree ... it's also, frankly, how I feel about Marvel.

No matter how many people put ketchup on a hot dog or eat potato chips with ice cream or chase beer with tequila, it doesn't make those matchups feel right. ... That's basically what I feel like with Avatar.

 

[WDW1974]

Concerning the first point: The military was not involved it was a mercenary force funded by a major corporation. Think Halliburton, not US Army.

Yes, the forces weren't overtly the US military. ... Just like Halliburton or Blackwater (don't they have a new name now since they're so hated?) aren't really used by our government as de facto private armies that break laws and get their hands dirty in ways our military doesn't feel comfortable doing?

I don't want this to get all political, but there's no denying rationally that the forces represented are basically US. And that whether its a government's military or just an evil corporation, those are things that much of the WDW-going base loves. James Cameron, make no mistake, does not.

But again, I'm sure this will be glossed over like it doesn't exist.

This is Disney, the company afraid to release Song of the South (while releasing Dumbo, with similar racial sterotypes) that still uses its characters in its parks and as the centerpiece of E-Tickets in Orlando and Anaheim. They'll just pretend -- and that's fine. I just thought the point needed to be raised as it's legit.

Also the plot of the second and third movie may involve the humans working with the aliens against a common enemy or attempting to bring balance back to the planet.

No idea about the plots of the upcoming films as Cameron has kept pretty tight wrap on things. Who knows? But the only film we have to base opinions on is what exists. And it was evil white American-appearing military folks attempting to pillage a peaceful society for its resources and/or kill them all so 'we' could steal them. Not really a message in living in harmony with nature, even on another planet in another galaxy etc.

As for the second point: they could easily address this by placing a bunch of solar panels on the roof of the large space and maybe even add some themed wind turbines (the base has to get power from somewhere). So they could kill two birds with one stone here. Actually providing power and getting a little credit for being "responsible" which again ties into the storyline.

I think what you'll see is one giant soundstage type building or multiples. And I don't think Disney will go green while going blue.

But we have years to wait ... many, many years!