Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Figments Friend]

The appeal of Club 33 is its history. As someone pointed out in their comment, one can still have the impression that they are one of Walt's special guests by dining there. When you move the entrance, it's no longer No.33 along the street. When you remove the Trophy Room, the special things that Walt intended for that space are lost. When you privatize the courtyard, the special attributes of that space are diminished as well. And what you end up with is an exclusive club that pretends to have historic ties but in actuality they become tenuous. In essence, one is removing what allowed the club to command such a long waiting list to begin with.

Well said, and i fully agree.
It seems a lot of the 'exclusiveness' about it is being phased out to enlarge the area to accommodate a larger crowd.
The intimate feeling...and feeling of it being special for only a select few may get lost in the enlargement process.

 

[Figments Friend]

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Great to hear some good things about Marty's book. I hope to pick up a copy soon...

I once had the pleasure of meeting him at the EPCOT 25th Anniversary event back in 2007.
When i was introduced to him, he shook my hand and then leaned towards me uttering some words i will probably never forget, and still find fitting and at the same time amusing.

Not every day you have someone like Marty thank you for kicking his employer in the tush to make sure then did something for EPCOT's anniversary.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well said, and i fully agree.
It seems a lot of the 'exclusiveness' about it is being phased out to enlarge the area to accommodate a larger crowd.
The intimate feeling...and feeling of it being special for only a select few may get lost in the enlargement process.

Historically, the Club 33 demand far outstrips the supply. The only issue may be in making it bigger and more expansive, is that it becomes too conspicuous to the guests below. Then you have another issue of those who "have" and "have not" in your face. It's not like you can just pay more, like an orchestra seat for the play, it's another experience with a limited membership. Elitism was something Walt was against, and the Club was created to fairly reward and entertain those who sponsored the park, not a cash cow for fans. I'm for the expansion as long as what happened with the Elevator tower next to Pirates does not happen to the Court of Angels.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Beautiful, just beautiful. Thanks for that!

These are some of the best vintage DL pictures I have ever seen. More Robert Doisneau than holiday pictures. For once the focus is on the people instead of on the park.

It's a different audience using the park in a very different way. A great insight into another era. I would love this as a coffee table book!

Great idea. These images are pretty priceless. Doisneau is right! Romantic as you can get.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I too just finished Marty's book. As much as I love reading it has been awhile since I have blown through a single book so quickly. It was a lot of fun and quite enjoyable. A nice cap to a few day's work.

It is. Some Disney books get ponderous and Marty's was a turner.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

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Great to hear some good things about Marty's book. I hope to pick up a copy soon...

I once had the pleasure of meeting him at the EPCOT 25th Anniversary event back in 2007.
When i was introduced to him, he shook my hand and then leaned towards me uttering some words i will probably never forget, and still find fitting and at the same time amusing.

Not every day you have someone like Marty thank you for kicking his employer in the tush to make sure then did something for EPCOT's anniversary.

EPCOT is dear to Marty as it was the project he put the most into. The book has lots to say about EPCOT, WDW and what the process and assumptions were in their development. I enjoyed that aspect as I was not yet at the company until 1986.

 

[Figments Friend]

Great...all the more reason i want to read it at some point.

There is some great history about the huge undertaking that was done to create EPCOT Center.
Additional insights are always welcome.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

This the new queue for the DAS. A line to get a pass to bypass another line. There will be 5 reservation stations in the park to deal with this and no doubt they will have queues as well. If you look at how many "steps" and new processes there are in order to have fun, such as stations for Fastpasses, and now this, the park is truly becoming a series of queues. "It is what it is", or is there a better way? Digital fastpasses or the wristband thing may reduce FastPass stations and streamline things more in the future. If you look at how much priceless real estate is being taken by by strollers, DAS lines at exits FP, Single rider, and such, it is significant. More in today's Micechat.

http://micechat.com/45908-disneyland-refurbishments-continue

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Do recall where he was talking about not being able to get hold of the Life magazine shots from Grad Nite 1961? How they could not get the rights, etc? I found them on Google's Life library. they are really innocent and awesome.

Get started here. Then dig around...
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/0706bd18532c669b.html

My wife and I tend to find Disney parks very romantic! In the evening of course, when the parks are quieter, nicely lit, and its easy to wander off and find a park bench to sit and watch the world. A cruise on the Mark Twain is pretty nice in the moonlight viewing New Orleans Square lit up. Something much harder to do in the years since Fantasmic. And for that reason alone, I wish Disney would move it to another place in the park. Like the back end of Fantasyland or something.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

My wife and I tend to find Disney parks very romantic! In the evening of course, when the parks are quieter, nicely lit, and its easy to wander off and find a park bench to sit and watch the world. A cruise on the Mark Twain is pretty nice in the moonlight viewing New Orleans Square lit up. Something much harder to do in the years since Fantasmic. And for that reason alone, I wish Disney would move it to another place in the park. Like the back end of Fantasyland or something.

I've said this before but the whole notion of "serendipity" ("oh, look here comes X character..let's meet her"), just roaming the park, enjoying the environments and maybe stopping for something to eat, is a rarity as you point out. Processes and reservations for meals, meet and greets, rides and shows make "roaming" a tougher pastime for sure. I for one, hate being pressured by reservation times (many love it and have to plan it all out) and I'm always looking at my watch to see where we have to be next to get all of the "fun" overwith. It makes your day into a paper route.

 

[Omnispace]

EPCOT is dear to Marty as it was the project he put the most into. The book has lots to say about EPCOT, WDW and what the process and assumptions were in their development. I enjoyed that aspect as I was not yet at the company until 1986.

Okay, I'll definitely have to get this book now because I have always been intrigued by EPCOT and the lofty goals it aspired to. When you think about it, much like Marty's work, the original concept of EPCOT was very literary-based. It sought to create a dialogue with the guest upon entering the park and used that dialogue to tie the different shows and attractions together. One could almost think of the attractions as different chapters that always supported the overall thesis.

Thus I wonder, with Marty being at the helm of creative design, why would such a wonderful concept be allowed to become so diluted over the years? Is it something that was simply outside his control? ..or was it something else?

 

[Omnispace]

I've said this before but the whole notion of "serendipity" ("oh, look here comes X character..let's meet her"), just roaming the park, enjoying the environments and maybe stopping for something to eat, is a rarity as you point out. Processes and reservations for meals, meet and greets, rides and shows make "roaming" a tougher pastime for sure. I for one, hate being pressured by reservation times (many love it and have to plan it all out) and I'm always looking at my watch to see where we have to be next to get all of the "fun" overwith. It makes your day into a paper route.

My best recollections of visiting Disneyland as a kid was the spontaneity of it all. Of course my parents were most likely doing some planning but there never seemed to be any place we ever had to be at any particular time. Even the shows in the park, like Carousel of Progress and Enchanted Tiki Room, were designed to accommodate the casual guest.

 

[MinnieM123]

I've said this before but the whole notion of "serendipity" ("oh, look here comes X character..let's meet her"), just roaming the park, enjoying the environments and maybe stopping for something to eat, is a rarity as you point out. Processes and reservations for meals, meet and greets, rides and shows make "roaming" a tougher pastime for sure. I for one, hate being pressured by reservation times (many love it and have to plan it all out) and I'm always looking at my watch to see where we have to be next to get all of the "fun" overwith. It makes your day into a paper route.

Working a full-time job, commuting, etc., forces many of us into packed, and sometimes stressful, schedules. When I go on vacation, I rebel against all that. I can roam the parks at my own pace. Aside of picking up a few Fast Passes here and there, I don't plan anything at all—including meals. I cherish spontaneity and "enjoying the moment" for what it is. When you're not rushed by time or commitment restraints, it's amazing the hidden gems that you discover on your own in the parks. In addition, I've had some wonderful, impromptu, discussions over the years with cast members.

The end result is that I return home relaxed and happy. (I understand that others may like to plan everything, and I'm glad that method works out well for them. To each his/her own.)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Just reflecting back on NOS. It is the ultimate in designed serendipity. My favorite land ever designed. Restrained, seamless and rich. Discover, relax, and get lost in the details. The same way you would on vacation in a foreign land. It had the same richness of community and retail that Main Street had as well. Perfume, Silver, Crystal,Juleps and Antiques. Obviously recalled from Walt and Lilly's own trips there...The 1981 Annual Report says it best.....

It was truly a community. A living museum.

Some very good observations here. Worth the detour....(plus I nabbed some pictures there!)
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2013/09/my-california-adventure.html

The Jazz musicians were there many years and "Herb" was a favorite of mine. The heartbeat of the area. Always kind and so very talented.

Not ONE piece of character anything.....Shocking. Truly "One of a kind"...

There is so much more. It was like roaming a movie set. The "Rogue's Gallery" Arcade was great too, with WED designed Pirate games to play. I used to spend hours in there on those beautifully made arcade games with special effects, some hand painted by Sam Mc Kim! Tried to get one when they were tossed years ago to no avail..they just did things because they would be cool or fun to have. I miss the seamless reality and richness that was. WDW had a similar arcade of custom games. http://www.omniluxe.net/wyw/ca.htm

 

[lazyboy97o]

When it comes to discussions of theme parks I think there is a part of that phrase that is grossly ignored. There are plenty of discussions regarding theme and theming, but very few take notice of the word park. Disneyland is not a mall (ironic that Disney now whole heartedly embraces one of the long standing criticisms), it is a park.

 

[Figments Friend]

I've said this before but the whole notion of "serendipity" ("oh, look here comes X character..let's meet her"), just roaming the park, enjoying the environments and maybe stopping for something to eat, is a rarity as you point out. Processes and reservations for meals, meet and greets, rides and shows make "roaming" a tougher pastime for sure. I for one, hate being pressured by reservation times (many love it and have to plan it all out) and I'm always looking at my watch to see where we have to be next to get all of the "fun" overwith. It makes your day into a paper route.

Agree.

This is why i have recently become hooked on the Disneyland experience after being a multiple decade WDW veteran.
At DL you can do just that...roam and not have to reserve much.
I recently visited for five days and had the time of my life..with no reservations and not a single Fast Pass ( being a Single Rider helps..!).

That same visit to WDW would have been a completely different experience today, one that would have likely required more 'planning'...even though i know the place like the back of my hand.

I hope DL manages to keep itself in a state of being 'less complex'.
Part of it's charm is just that.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

When it comes to discussions of theme parks I think there is a part of that phrase that is grossly ignored. There are plenty of discussions regarding theme and theming, but very few take notice of the word park. Disneyland is not a mall (ironic that Disney now whole heartedly embraces one of the long standing criticisms), it is a park.

Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen was a big driver in convincing Walt to make things green and more park-like in setting and within that were the shows and attractions. An A for Ambience.

 

[janoimagine]

I've said this before but the whole notion of "serendipity" ("oh, look here comes X character..let's meet her"), just roaming the park, enjoying the environments and maybe stopping for something to eat, is a rarity as you point out. Processes and reservations for meals, meet and greets, rides and shows make "roaming" a tougher pastime for sure. I for one, hate being pressured by reservation times (many love it and have to plan it all out) and I'm always looking at my watch to see where we have to be next to get all of the "fun" overwith. It makes your day into a paper route.

Eddie is their any way to bring this spontinaiety back?

I am a producer, it is how I make my living, and I have to plan for everything and anything, I have to have contingencys for everything, from the smallest to largest detail, and make sure everything happens, just like it should, on time and within budget ... I joke with clients that their is two things production can not control, 1 is animals, and 2 is the weather, but if I could control the weather, I would not be a producer.

But who can we take this concern to within Disney that will listen and possibly implement some changes for those of us who are a little more free spirited with our vacations? Dining was one thing, and even then I hate that, but now I am planning my rides out 60 days in advance? Where is the line? When did the Creative's of Disney lose out to Accountants and Spreadsheets, can it ever turn around?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie is their any way to bring this spontinaiety back?

I am a producer, it is how I make my living, and I have to plan for everything and anything, I have to have contingencys for everything, from the smallest to largest detail, and make sure everything happens, just like it should, on time and within budget ... I joke with clients that their is two things production can not control, 1 is animals, and 2 is the weather, but if I could control the weather, I would not be a producer.

But who can we take this concern to within Disney that will listen and possibly implement some changes for those of us who are a little more free spirited with our vacations? Dining was one thing, and even then I hate that, but now I am planning my rides out 60 days in advance? Where is the line? When did the Creative's of Disney lose out to Accountants and Spreadsheets, can it ever turn around?

All good points. Operations decides these kinds of things and has a business model that is hard to argue with unless the guest speaks out. (Much as you may not have "Final Cut" and the Studio redoes things based on audience previews). My sense is that when demand drops, then you don't need reservations. Also there are many that like reservations, so I don't see it going away soon. It's a question of how extensive it is. If enough guests get fed up and they see in the exit surveys that guests coming randomly can't do enough then maybe they will achieve a balance as happened with Fast Pass 1.0. They went around freeing up the park by removing machines several years back to something more reasonable. Usually the pendulum swings both ways. Once something hits an extreme then they react. Time will tell.

The only other thing is try to design areas that are there to discover, "nooks and crannies" that allow the guest to be more immersed. It's hard to do because those things get cut in favor of spaces that pay for themselves but you can shoot for a balance.

 

[RSoxNo1]

This the new queue for the DAS. A line to get a pass to bypass another line. There will be 5 reservation stations in the park to deal with this and no doubt they will have queues as well. If you look at how many "steps" and new processes there are in order to have fun, such as stations for Fastpasses, and now this, the park is truly becoming a series of queues. "It is what it is", or is there a better way? Digital fastpasses or the wristband thing may reduce FastPass stations and streamline things more in the future. If you look at how much priceless real estate is being taken by by strollers, DAS lines at exits FP, Single rider, and such, it is significant. More in today's Micechat.

http://micechat.com/45908-disneyland-refurbishments-continue

That's impressive.