Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Bairstow]

That's impressive.

I'd be interested to see if this is a permanent situation.
As I understand it there was an initial rush of people applying for DAS cards when the rollover happened, as they were unaware that they have expiry dates.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I just came from the book signing party of a good friend, Harold Bronson. Harold was a co founder of Rhino Records. Why am I bringing this up? Because this is another example of two people that have a passion for something doing what they love and it organically becoming a business. It is not a business model in search of an idea. This is what is wrong with so many enterprises today, is that they coldly go after a demographic or a formula, not because of a sheer love of their product. Fans make great companies for fans.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rhino-Records-Story-Revenge/dp/1590791282

 

[Bryner84]

Regarding the glorification of the queue...

When I see pictures of queues like the one at Starbucks, I can't help but draw a comparison to what has happened to the suburban landscape. Over time, the architecture of the suburban home (even suburbia as a concept) has adapted to fit the car, rather than the pedestrian. Even within the last 20 years, garages have an increased dominance and are now front and center, often the largest component in the massing scheme of a house, beckoning the automobile to enter rather than the individual. The focus on the front door, speaking to the passerby on foot, has relinquished its importance to the function of the car. The automobile has been an essential component of many people's lives for much longer, but the architecture was behind in reflecting that. Many garages were detached and recessed on the property, or blended in with the overall massing and tucked in a back corner. Now the double wide strip of pavement to the two or three car garage door dwarfs the sidewalk and front door in comparison.

It seems Disney has adapted a similar methodology in design as of late. Queues have always been an essential component in theme park design. At its best, the experiential components of an attraction, building, or restaurant, etc. should be front and center. Sometimes the idea of putting the functional components of a space and making them front of house can be rewarding (a kitchen as a center piece in a fine restaurant), but sometimes it is just sloppy (queue at Starbucks). When I see the winding queue dominating the space, I think of it as the exposed guts, the intestines folded about themselves, when what I really want to see is the overall body and not be so confronted with how it works. An urban space might accomplish this by putting the experience in the front and the queue forms as it may, promoting an efficiency of space dedicated to experience. The suburban approach has no qualms with dedicating and even promoting space relegated to the function at the expense of experience. In theme parks, the foot and stroller are the cars of suburbia.

 

[flynnibus]

Interesting angle @Bryner84

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Regarding the glorification of the queue...

When I see pictures of queues like the one at Starbucks, I can't help but draw a comparison to what has happened to the suburban landscape. Over time, the architecture of the suburban home (even suburbia as a concept) has adapted to fit the car, rather than the pedestrian. Even within the last 20 years, garages have an increased dominance and are now front and center, often the largest component in the massing scheme of a house, beckoning the automobile to enter rather than the individual. The focus on the front door, speaking to the passerby on foot, has relinquished its importance to the function of the car. The automobile has been an essential component of many people's lives for much longer, but the architecture was behind in reflecting that. Many garages were detached and recessed on the property, or blended in with the overall massing and tucked in a back corner. Now the double wide strip of pavement to the two or three car garage door dwarfs the sidewalk and front door in comparison.

It seems Disney has adapted a similar methodology in design as of late. Queues have always been an essential component in theme park design. At its best, the experiential components of an attraction, building, or restaurant, etc. should be front and center. Sometimes the idea of putting the functional components of a space and making them front of house can be rewarding (a kitchen as a center piece in a fine restaurant), but sometimes it is just sloppy (queue at Starbucks). When I see the winding queue dominating the space, I think of it as the exposed guts, the intestines folded about themselves, when what I really want to see is the overall body and not be so confronted with how it works. An urban space might accomplish this by putting the experience in the front and the queue forms as it may, promoting an efficiency of space dedicated to experience. The suburban approach has no qualms with dedicating and even promoting space relegated to the function at the expense of experience. In theme parks, the foot and stroller are the cars of suburbia.

It reminds me of suburban shopping centers with the parking lot in front and Best Buy in the distance.

I still think disguising the line could have been solved by winding the queue between barrels, casework and other market house items so when the line is short, the space is still richly decorated.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

My favorite article on Skeuomorphic design so far and the comments sections is the real payoff. I fall on managing it, not killing it. Like Walt's penchant for nostalgia, or for having one "foot" in the past and one in the future, seems relevant to the discussion. Disneyland is SM in a way. Job's passion for SM design was possibly to keep the "warmth" and intuition in the product.
http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt

 

[Blufusion]

Maybe it's just me and my age. I have visited WDW from 1982 to the last time I visited the Studios in 2007. From the 1st visiting in 1981 and picking up from 1985 to 1992 every year. And the last solo visit I had in the 1997 for 10 days. Maybe I'm getting grumpy and old. I hope not but for me Disney has just lost my interest and I'm a Big Big WDW fan but they have done so much wrong at the parks and even living in Florida where I wanted to be near the parks. They have lost me on the prices for what you get. It has lost it''s specialness for me and many others. For me I had the money to do My WDW Bucket list stay on propery at The Contemporary for 7 days. I decided not too. I didn't want to be told what time and where and what to do by the "Company". Instead of Disney getting the outrageous room rate for where I wanted to stay for those days of $ 500.00 or more . Me and my partner decided to go to Hawaii. Best decision we ever did. We got to stay at a real 5 star Marriott resort for 8 days right down the path from Aulani .Stayed in villa not a suite or a regular room, rental car for those 8 days and round trip airfare for 2 from Tampa Florida . Plus a 1 hr helicopter ride over the island. The total cost for all of it not per person. Was $4000.00. Just the cost of the room at Disney was more than the total cost of our whole trip. I will admit that my partner works for Marriott and we get a hell of a discount . But with the $10000.00 we would have spent at Disney. We went to Paradise on Earth! Natual trees and just relaxation and fun. We had a great time and the money we came back with enough to finish up and do other things with it for our house like a New flatscreen for the living room and bedroom. There is more to life than Disney. If you would have asked me that in 1980 to 1997. I would have told you all the great things about WDW and the fun. But NO MORE. MY Disney has died at the hands of bean counters
.

 

[crmscotland]

Someone directed me to this thread - l have a question about Disneyland Paris for Eddie Sotto - hope it's ok to post it here.
Below is a photo l took last week of the wallpaper at Salon Mickey, the shareholders lounge at DLP.

Do you know if it is a design exclusive to Disney? It reminds me of William Morris arts & crafts designs. I googled & there is a company in the US called Bradbury & Bradbury who produce heritage wallpapers similar to this, but l can't find this design. If it was available l rather like the idea of recreating myself a Salon Mickey at home I had a wonderful trip to Disneyland Paris (this was my 6th trip since 1993) & spent as much if not more time looking at all the fantastic detail as going on rides - DLP is so beautifully designed.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Maybe it's just me and my age. I have visited WDW from 1982 to the last time I visited the Studios in 2007. from the 1st visiting in 1981 and picking up from 1985 to 1992 every year. And the last visit I had in the 1997 for 10 days. Maybe I'm getting grumpy and old. I hope not but for me Disney has just lost my interest and I'm a Big Big WDW fan but they have done so much wrong at the parks and even living in Florida where I wanted to be near the parks. They have lost me on the prices for what you get. It has lost it''s specialness for me and many others. For me I had the money to do My WDW Bucket list stay on propery at The Contemporary for 7 days. I decided not too. I didn't want to be told what time ands where and what to do by the "Company. Instead of Disney getting the outrageous room rate for where I wanted to stay for those days of $ 500.00 or more . Me and my partner decided to go to Hawaii . Best decision we ever did . He works for Marriott we got to stay at a real % star Marriott resort for 8 days in a villa . Not a suite or a regular room rental car for those 8 days and round trip airfare for 2 from Tampa Florida . Plus a 1 hr helicopter ride over the island. The total cost for all of it not per person. Was $4000.00. Just the coast of the room at Disney was more than the total cost of our whole trip. I will admit that my partner worlds for Marriott and we get a hell of a discount . But with the $10.000 we would have spent at Disney we went to paradise on Earth. natal Trees and just relaxation and fun. We had a great time and the money we came back with enough to finish ip and do other things with it for our house Like a New flatscreen for the Living Room and bedroom. There is more to life than Disney. If you would have asked me that in 1980 to 1997 . I would have told you all the great things about WDW and the fun. But NO MORE. MY Disney has died at the hands of bean counters
.

I have done the Hawaii family vacation thing and for us it was expensive. Food there is generally high, but I enjoy going there and the kids did too. I may take them to WDW once, but the lines for everything and the whole mechanical way you are "processed" is not relaxing to me. When I went as a teen in the 70's it was a less crowded and casual experience.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Someone directed me to this thread - l have a question about Disneyland Paris for Eddie Sotto - hope it's ok to post it here.
Below is a photo l took last week of the wallpaper at Salon Mickey, the shareholders lounge at DLP.

Do you know if it is a design exclusive to Disney? It reminds me of William Morris arts & crafts designs. I googled & there is a company in the US called Bradbury & Bradbury who produce heritage wallpapers similar to this, but l can't find this design. If it was available l rather like the idea of recreating myself a Salon Mickey at home I had a wonderful trip to Disneyland Paris (this was my 6th trip since 1993) & spent as much if not more time looking at all the fantastic detail as going on rides - DLP is so beautifully designed.

Glad you enjoy DLP, we did too! Good News...It is Bradbury, we used their papers almost exclusively at DLP where they were first used in a park. Later on, I was involved in redoing some of Main Street at Disneyland and we used them there as well. Today they have a big selection, as in 1992 there were more limited number of patterns. I love their deco patterns too. Below are the links to the pattern of the Salon. You must have missed it. It's possible that they do not run the exact color combo we used in 1992 but the patterns are exact. Order some swatches and see how close it is..We now expect you to post pictures of your Salon when complete. Deal?
http://bradbury.com/victorian/lyw_550_rose.html#.UmqE1qXnCfw
http://bradbury.com/victorian/vif_510_jasper.html#.UmqFOaXnCfw

 

[lazyboy97o]

My favorite article on Skeuomorphic design so far and the comments sections is the real payoff. I fall on managing it, not killing it. Like Walt's penchant for nostalgia, or for having one "foot" in the past and one in the future, seems relevant to the discussion. Disneyland is SM in a way. Job's passion for SM design was possibly to keep the "warmth" and intuition in the product.
http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt

These discussions are sort of similar to how I frame notions of ornament in architecture. As technology progresses, you reach a certain point where what was once a highly skilled, painstaking process becomes quick and mass produced. Before the industrial age, ornament on a built required hours of work by a skilled craftsman. I agree that people by and large are comforted by designs from the past, and thus we get the McMansion loaded up with trims and moldings and whatnot all mass produced and bought at the local Home Depot. The excess has reached its extreme and the balance from expense and work has been thrown off. I think there is something similar with digital design. Apple sort of reached a point where yes, they were able to do all of these textures but it was becoming too much. Everything was getting a different texture.

But I am also one who has already preferred a flatter look to my computer. I used to drive my parents a little nuts because back in the days when we had a family PC I would re-skin Windows to make it flatter. I'm even a little disappointed that in OS X Mavericks Apple has disabled the terminal command that switched the Dock to the 2D look.

 

[crmscotland]

Glad you enjoy DLP, we did too! Good News...It is Bradbury, we used their papers almost exclusively at DLP where they were first used in a park. Later on, I was involved in redoing some of Main Street at Disneyland and we used them there as well. Today they have a big selection, as in 1992 there were more limited number of patterns. I love their deco patterns too. Below are the links to the pattern of the Salon. You must have missed it. It's possible that they do not run the exact color combo we used in 1992 but the patterns are exact. Order some swatches and see how close it is..We now expect you to post pictures of your Salon when complete. Deal?
http://bradbury.com/victorian/lyw_550_rose.html#.UmqE1qXnCfw
http://bradbury.com/victorian/vif_510_jasper.html#.UmqFOaXnCfw

Thankyou so much for your reply. Brilliant, many thanks. Deal - absolutely!

 

[Omnispace]

These discussions are sort of similar to how I frame notions of ornament in architecture. As technology progresses, you reach a certain point where what was once a highly skilled, painstaking process becomes quick and mass produced. Before the industrial age, ornament on a built required hours of work by a skilled craftsman. I agree that people by and large are comforted by designs from the past, and thus we get the McMansion loaded up with trims and moldings and whatnot all mass produced and bought at the local Home Depot. The excess has reached its extreme and the balance from expense and work has been thrown off. I think there is something similar with digital design. Apple sort of reached a point where yes, they were able to do all of these textures but it was becoming too much. Everything was getting a different texture.

But I am also one who has already preferred a flatter look to my computer. I used to drive my parents a little nuts because back in the days when we had a family PC I would re-skin Windows to make it flatter. I'm even a little disappointed that in OS X Mavericks Apple has disabled the terminal command that switched the Dock to the 2D look.

Another relevant architecture example would be the Post Modern designs from the 1980's. Robert Venturi's restrained and abstracted classical references on his "decorated sheds" were completely overblown and stylized by the likes of Michael Graves. Suddenly everyone was pushing the trend to whatever extremes their Prismacolor renderings on yellow trace would take them. The original intent was to borrow something from the past and combine it with Modernism to create something new -- the results evolved into a superfluous application of random ornamentation that became visual clutter.

I believe that as long as there are enough visual clues that allows my brain to understand and navigate an OS, then that is all that is really needed. Some three-dimensionality helps. Of course I want the design to be visually appealing and elegant in its operation so that I am not distracted. But the more significant aspect of software design development is going to be how it evolves to anticipate our usage. A a basic example: Google's search does an amazing job of offering suggestions the moment I start typing what I want. Most of the time it leads me to what I am looking for after just a few keystrokes. Likewise, the virtual keyboard on my Windows Phone helps to streamline typing by offering completed words as I create them. It's like someone handing you the wrench when you need it instead of rummaging around in the toolbox. Those types of developments are going to be key to the way we work with these devices.

 

[ChrisFL]

Apple sort of reached a point where yes, they were able to do all of these textures but it was becoming too much. Everything was getting a different texture.

But I am also one who has already preferred a flatter look to my computer. I used to drive my parents a little nuts because back in the days when we had a family PC I would re-skin Windows to make it flatter. I'm even a little disappointed that in OS X Mavericks Apple has disabled the terminal command that switched the Dock to the 2D look.

I believe in reactionary changes in things. The logos and icons of computer brands used to be very basic and flat...then we had the web and "web 2.0" influence giving a 3 dimensional, shiny look...now Apple and Windows are back to flat basic icons and logos.

 

[ChrisFL]

I wanted to add something else that is going to throw what we think of design, work and craftsmanship into another realm entirely....3D printing.

When soon everyone can print any shape imaginable, its going to be very interesting to see what, if any kind of style trends emerge from that and who, if anyone becomes famous 3D artists in that medium.

 

[Omnispace]

I believe in reactionary changes in things. The logos and icons of computer brands used to be very basic and flat...then we had the web and "web 2.0" influence giving a 3 dimensional, shiny look...now Apple and Windows are back to flat basic icons and logos.

I was looking at old EPCOT Center stuff today and I came across this. Ironic how contemporary it feels -- it's very similar to iOS7..

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I was looking at old EPCOT Center stuff today and I came across this. Ironic how contemporary it feels -- it's very similar to iOS7..

It's better. It does not require 5 clicks to find out how to navigate somewhere.
It's interesting to note that the EPCOT iOS7 "icons" are so vague that you need additional "flat buttons" below in text to explain what they are. Very 2013 Apple for sure.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's better. It does not require 5 clicks to find out how to navigate somewhere.

So, have you upgraded to Mavericks yet? OS X is really getting to that point where I think that OS X is stating to look broken. The aesthetic has been pushed and pulled in so many directions.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

So, have you upgraded to Mavericks yet? OS X is really getting to that point where I think that OS X is stating to look broken. The aesthetic has been pushed and pulled in so many directions.

I have not upgraded yet, and Mavericks has gotten good reviews, but if the reviews (in the App store) for the new versions of Pages, iPhoto, Keynote, iMovie and Numbers are any indication, they are dumbing down the intuition and usefulness of their best software for the sake of change, for "touch" iOS, or to reach non power users. The polarizing love/hate one star reviews on their site state over and over how they have either removed features that made the software great, or have relocated the most useful control panels to the point of making you hunt all over to use the features. My sense is that overall, iOS 7 for example takes more "clicks" to do things (Calendar) and that you can't tell if text is "text" or a "button". This was always the difference in PC vs Mac arguments. The intuitive layout of features, versus digging in unlikely places. Lack of backward compatibility is another issue that is cropping up when trying to use previous documents or presentations. Keynote and Pages being the worst. I use that software and will avoid upgrading till they make me. The more intelligent reviews from power users are scary. I'm afraid Apple has fallen really far and it depresses me. Now that "Walt" is dead, "Ron Miller" is writing the software.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I have not upgraded yet, and Mavericks has gotten good reviews, but if the reviews (in the App store) for the new versions of Pages, iPhoto, Keynote, iMovie and Numbers are any indication, they are dumbing down the intuition and usefulness of their best software for the sake of change, for "touch" iOS, or to reach non power users. The polarizing love/hate one star reviews on their site state over and over how they have either removed features that made the software great, or have relocated the most useful control panels to the point of making you hunt all over to use the features. My sense is that overall, iOS 7 for example takes more "clicks" to do things (Calendar) and that you can't tell if text is "text" or a "button". This was always the difference in PC vs Mac arguments. The intuitive layout of features, versus digging in unlikely places. Lack of backward compatibility is another issue that is cropping up when trying to use previous documents or presentations. Keynote and Pages being the worst. I use that software and will avoid upgrading till they make me. The more intelligent reviews from power users are scary. I'm afraid Apple has fallen really far and it depresses me. Now that "Walt" is dead, "Ron Miller" is writing the software.

I do not use iWork so I cannot address that. In terms of performance I am quite pleased with Mavericks. It really is odd that when it comes to hardware Apple has understood that different devices have different uses and they've avoided trying to make a Surface that claims to be everything but ends up being a lot of nothing. Then they go and do the exact opposite with software. You also would have thought the whole Final Cut Pro X debacle would have taught them that people will leave the software ecosystem if push comes to shove.