Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

But when you travel abroad, you see the same delta, so I don't think it has to do with the rustic sense. I think a factor that is dominate tho is 'how easy is it to use here?'. How easy is it to push around? How easy is it to navigate through the spaces? How easy is it to get the stroller to the site itself?

Those are all factors that would discourage usage - but in the interest of making it better for those that need strollers, disney removes those barriers. And the unintended consequence is now those beyond the 'need' line, find the stroller simply an 'easier' way of visiting.. and the usage swells.

This is Disney 'empowering' the problem.

Imagine if there were no stroller parking at all - Strollers didn't fit in attractions and people had to stay with their stroller all the time. I bet usage would drop off significantly (after a difficult period of new enforcement). Would it work? I think so. Would it be customer friendly? No.. so its not really viable.

Could Disney stop making it SO easy? I think so.. but it would come at a cost (lost revenue) and customer sat. Losses I don't think Disney could stomach.

So what does that leave us? Probably park design.. but what I don't know is.. does that only make the problem WORSE by further enabling the behavior? So the answer is probably somewhere in the middle of making it not soo easy, but add some pain to the mix.

Look at politics.. the only way to get consensus is to make EVERYONE feel the pain. Selfishness prevents the masses from supporting 'the common good' anymore. On a tangent.. I think that is the grain of our society that will cause the end of our period.. but that's a sidebar

Disney has never had customers, it has had guests. To that end a good host tries to do whatever it takes to reasonably please his...guests. That's probably why you have this issue. By mandate (Every guest is a VIP) Disney accommodates it's guests in an exceptional way.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Amen...My girls are 6 we don't take a stroller, but many days we end up renting them late in the day. I am overly careful with it and super polite, but most people won't ever let you by with the stroller. They have to push to go first. You just push ahead, that 95 min wait will still be there. Which is why we stroller people have to push though. If we were all a little more polite and unselfish it wouldn't be an issue.

Courtesy is still a big deal.

 

[flynnibus]

Disney has never had customers, it has had guests. To that end a good host tries to do whatever it takes to reasonably please his...guests. That's probably why you have this issue. By mandate (Every guest is a VIP) Disney accommodates it's guests in an exceptional way.

Yeah, but a host isn't blind to the faults of his guests.. and can dis-invite and remove someone on the fly. Disney on the other hand.. doesn't. Usually there is a reasonable expectation of both parties. Disney turns a blind eye to the 'faults' of its guests. So much so.. some guests interfere with other guests.

Where I differ with Disney's approach is.. the unfettered gushing to help a guest stops once a guest stops playing nice themselves. Disney tho, mainly because it does not trust its own employees, allows guests to walk all over them.

With better employees, and better training, a company should be able to empower their staff to make reasonable decisions. But Disney doesn't do that, and trains CMs to basically 'stay out of the way' and never confront problems or abuse.

Habitual abusers pick up on this.. and know they can get away with murder...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm glad I'm not the only jerk who hates people in the park.

I've always thought it'd be great to have some huge stroller parking space between areas of the park, so within the lands there'd be no strollers. For example, when I went to Disneyland with my aunt and 6 year old nephew (he has some sort of developmental issue, we don't know exactly what) I noticed that he'd be pushed around in the stroller through main street, and then they'd park the stroller in front of Snow White and do a bunch of Fantasyland rides without strollers. Or they'd park the stroller by the ROA before doing Pirates and Haunted Mansion. It'd be great if one day someone came up with a system in which strollers were stored underground with access in five locations or so. Obviously this isn't exactly feasible in Disneyland, but I'm sure they could figure out some sort of solution if they're clever.

Underground! I like it.

 

[hiptwinmama]

There is a degree of that I believe.. the idea that the park experience has been greatly expanded with multiple gates, etc. Leisure is falling further and further behind 'commando'. But I think it's more about society and commodity nature of our society in the last 20-30 years.

• People feel the need to bring so much more with them these days. Gone are the days of a simple diaper bag with just wipes,diapers, a bottle, and maybe extra clothes. People bring the whole nursery with them now, multiple meals, snacks, etc.
• The move to a more less active society.. people are letting kids get away with far more.. making less fit kids. Older kids are tiring out.. in part because they aren't used to the activity level.
• Disney has empowered this behavior with this own actions - making it easier for people to use strollers
• People are less cognescent of the impact on others/the-whole with the 'me,me,me' mentaility that is prevalent today
• Disney's 'customer first, no questions asked' mentality opens the door for 'me me me' people to take a mile when given an inch.

It's an issue that is a microcosm of society in general.. from lifestyle to social responsibility. It's exaggerated at Disney because Disney empowers the behavior and the emphasis on 'scale' of things to do.


I took a stroller to WDW.. but we took a folding umbrella stroller for my youngest (4). Her older sisters (8 and 7) were on their own feet. The stroller was used to cover distances, and when she needed a break. Do I look down on people using strollers? No - they are a pratical necessity. What I don't like is when people use them as a crutch and are inconsiderate of their personal choices' impact on the whole.

To your question.. its an interesting angle to think.. Could Disney design the parks differently to minimize the 'need'? I think they could.. but I don't really think the surge in strollers is due to increased NEED but rather due to individual choices.

The best thing (IMO) Disney can do is help kids with services/food/break type stuff while making bringing strollers 'harder'.

Unfortunately in this society today - it seems the only way to influence behavior is with negative enforcement.

I could not agree more, I grew up only 90 minutes from WDW and as a kid we went so many times I lost count. I don't remember people being so " me, me, me" back then. I remember a time when a grown up would move so that a child could sit on the main street curb for the parade. You didn't have to line up an hour in advance. Actually, I remember that most adult stood for the parades back then and there was about 4-5 rows deep of kids watching the parade in front. Too many adults forget that WDW is first and foremost about the kids. I don't remember seeing so many families that look miserable, how can you be so unhappy at WDW, you're at WDW for pete's sake, go with the flow and enjoy. Many of the things I see kids do in the parks I would not have gotten away with. I seem to remember throwing a fit at MK once. My mom took me into what is now the starlight cafe and made me sit there for and hour while my siblings got to have fun. Needless to say, I never tried that again.

I don't think it is just Disney that has empowered guests to be that way, I think it is our society. The louder you yell, the more rude you are the more you get what you want... most of the time. I am of the persuasion that if you kill them with kindness while complaining about something and say.... "I know it's not your fault, however..." you get a CM that will go above and beyond to make you happy.

I think the need to bring stuff would be reduced if parents could purchase things in the park at a reasonable price. Diaper vending machine where diapers are only $1, for example. Or small kid sized juice for $1.29. But there are always people looking to save a buck, and that will never change, specially with the rising cost of a Disney Vacation. ( but that is a different post)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Remember how the Upjohn Pharmacy on Main Street gave away samples? Imagine today's society drowning in prescription drugs. Main Street should bring it back with a real Doctor on duty that can quickly prescribe Valium and Xanax and other legal drugs to problem guests and their kids. Maybe a time release patch with the sponsor's name. "There's a great big beauti-pill tomorrow". They can get Upjohn and Blue Cross to sponsor it. Then people would be numb during the parade.

 

[hiptwinmama]

I remember buying my first invisible pet dog ...LOL at the magic shop that used to be on Main Street at WDW.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I remember buying my first invisible pet dog ...LOL at the magic shop that used to be on Main Street at WDW.

Fun was much easier to have back then....I liked the "Swiss Warbler" bird calls.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Fun was much easier to have back then....I liked the "Swiss Warbler" bird calls.

I do not believe that it is still not so easy. I have young cousins who love all sorts of old entertainment "kids today just don't have the attention span for because the world has changed." Many times its not just the object, but the social interaction that creates the enjoyment. In the theme parks, I think the "have to get the best value for what I paid" also plays a role so people are not as willing to slow down for longer attractions or shopping.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I do not believe that it is still not so easy. I have young cousins who love all sorts of old entertainment "kids today just don't have the attention span for because the world has changed." Many times its not just the object, but the social interaction that creates the enjoyment. In the theme parks, I think the "have to get the best value for what I paid" also plays a role so people are not as willing to slow down for longer attractions or shopping.

I was being facetious. I would agree with you. One of my goals at Sotto Studios is to try to make technology more social, not in the sense of social networks so much as using technology to bring people together to share live experiences. Theme parks do create great shared experiences. I'm glad that you brought that point out. However, I do think it is getting more difficult to deal with attention spans as television and movies are cut so much faster and have so much more stimulus that people become addicted to it. The same thing with talking toys and things that are designed to respond if you touch them. So now if a young child pick something up and it doesn't respond to them they're disappointed. I've always had a bit of resentment that LEGO went down the path of prescribing its toys into more of a "kit" (Star Wars ship) than a pile of loose bricks for you to create from. Of course, the kids can modify and mutate the kits, and that's great, but the original Lego was much more of a "blank sheet of paper" that really made you think and taught you how to see something in your head and force it out of your hands into something tangible. That type of eye-hand coordination of dreaming and then building is incredibly valuable too. The only other concern I have about technology is that it might stunt your ability to be socially adaptive in person with other people.Dealing with other people in person and delivering both good and bad messages to them, reading expressions and showing emotion is much different than texting. Not that people will never see each other, but the fear would be that they would begin to default into less confrontational forms of communication that are flavorless. You prefer to text them versus talking to them. I know people that would rather leave me a voicemail at midnight than actually discuss something. Usually that means it's bad news. I guess what I meant by "fun being easier" is that it was a simpler time and simpler things had impact. It seems many kids today need technology to feel relevant. And that is too bad.

I was very excited a few weeks ago when I asked my son what he wanted to do over his holiday break. He wasn't interested in going to Disneyland, he said that he wanted to go to a really good forest. So we did.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I was being facetious. I would agree with you. One of my goals at Sotto Studios is to try to make technology more social, not in the sense of social networks so much as using technology to bring people together to share live experiences. Theme parks do create great shared experiences. I'm glad that you brought that point out. However, I do think it is getting more difficult to deal with attention spans as television and movies are cut so much faster and have so much more stimulus that people become addicted to it.
[...]
The only other concern I have about technology is that it can potentially stunt. Ability to be socially adaptive in person with other people. You prefer to text them versus talking to them. I know people that would rather leave me a voicemail at midnight that actually discuss something. Usually that means it's bad news. I guess what I meant by fun being easier is that it was a simpler time and simpler things had impact. It seems many kids today need technology to feel relevant. And that is too bad.

But is it really? The Harry Potter story was spanned over seven books that each became progressively longer. Then those were spanned across eight films that people wish were longer. Before that the Lord of the Rings, and now The Hobbit, have people watching long films. The Dark Knight Trilogy was also long. Even The Avengers was almost two and a half hours. Quick stimulus is easy, but if you have something worth experiencing people seem to be willing to come along for the ride. It's something we've touched upon before, but I think the proliferation of content creation tools has greatly expanded what is available and therefor there is a lot of noise that must be combatted to say something of significance.

The same thing with talking toys and things that are designed to respond if you touch them. So now if a young child pick something up and it doesn't respond to them they're disappointed. I've always had a bit of resentment that LEGO went down the path of prescribing its toys into more of a kit then pile of raw materials for you to create from. Of course the kids can modify and mutate the kits, and that's great, but the original Lego was much more of a blank sheet of paper that really made you think and taught you how to see something in your head and force it out of your hands into something tangible. That type of eye hand coordination of dreaming and then building is incredibly valuable too.

I fell away from Legos for a similar reason. To me, it was the increase in custom pieces that reinforced the desired model. Almost none of my Lego sets stayed as the intended model, but they lost their draw as they focused more on franchises and specific models. Pieces were more locked into their specific role. I do though wish I could afford some of the large models withs 1000s of pieces, as I think those offer their own challenge.

 

[flynnibus]

I fell away from Legos for a similar reason. To me, it was the increase in custom pieces that reinforced the desired model. Almost none of my Lego sets stayed as the intended model, but they lost their draw as they focused more on franchises and specific models. Pieces were more locked into their specific role. I do though wish I could afford some of the large models withs 1000s of pieces, as I think those offer their own challenge.

check out the 'creator' line - much more traditional

 

[Eddie Sotto]

But is it really? The Harry Potter story was spanned over seven books that each became progressively longer. Then those were spanned across eight films that people wish were longer. Before that the Lord of the Rings, and now The Hobbit, have people watching long films. The Dark Knight Trilogy was also long. Even The Avengers was almost two and a half hours. Quick stimulus is easy, but if you have something worth experiencing people seem to be willing to come along for the ride. It's something we've touched upon before, but I think the proliferation of content creation tools has greatly expanded what is available and therefor there is a lot of noise that must be combatted to say something of significance.

We could turn this into a movie review thread very easily. My opinion a lot of these films is that the same story could've told been told much shorter. Sometimes it takes more expertise to say more with less. If you look at Batman and the Avengers, there is a tremendous amount of frivolous camera movement, smash cutting, and action. So to me, it's the same onslaught of movement, but for a longer period of time to satisfy the hunger the audience has for the stimulus. And it's true that these serialized franchises are incredibly successful. I could barely sit through the Lord of the Rings because I thought it was painfully long. Once I hit two hours in a movie things had better have me completely riveted or I'm beginning to get distracted. I mostly watch Turner Classic Movies. I must be in the minority so you should probably disregard my critiques!

To give you an example, when our kids were little we would focus on showing them videos of older films that were either black and white like Buster Keaton, or the Disney classic animated films. We stayed away from Nickelodeon and stuff like that when they were really really young. I was very sensitive to the quick cutting aspects and not prejudicing the kids against black and white as a medium. Now they like a lot of different things and are open to black and white, and even silent films in their place.

 

[lazyboy97o]

To give you an example, when our kids were little we would focus on showing them videos of older films that were either black and white like Buster Keaton, or the Disney classic animated films. We stayed away from Nickelodeon and stuff like that when they were really really young. I was very sensitive to the quick cutting aspects and not prejudicing the kids against black and white as a medium. Now they like a lot of different things and are open to black and white, and even silent films in their place.

I wish I knew where they are, but my parents had VHS tapes of all sorts of old shorts and cartoons. I grew up watching stuff like the Alice Comedies and 1940s Fleischer Brothers' Superman serials. I never understood my peers groaning about black and white.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I wish I knew where they are, but my parents had VHS tapes of all sorts of old shorts and cartoons. I grew up watching stuff like the Alice Comedies and 1940s Fleischer Brothers' Superman serials. I never understood my peers groaning about black and white.

Aha! I knew there was a reason YOU are on this thread!!!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm sure you've all been reading about the guy who created his own Tron soundtrack for the GM test track. I remember years ago creating my own soundtracks for Space Mountain and playing them on a Sony Walkman. There was a song called "Starrider" from the band Foreigner that I used to love. But that was the late 1970s. Imagineer Tom Morris used to do the same thing. Putting music on Space Mountain was originally his dream that I had the opportunity to implement years later. He did it right in Hong Kong with redesigned vehicles.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I'm sure you've all been reading about the guy who created his own Tron soundtrack for the GM test track. I remember years ago creating my own soundtracks for Space Mountain and playing them on a Sony Walkman. There was a song called "Starrider" from the band Foreigner that I used to love. But that was the late 1970s. Imagineer Tom Morris used to do the same thing. Putting music on Space Mountain was originally his dream that I had the opportunity to implement years later. He did it right in Hong Kong with redesigned vehicles.

Could you talk a little bit more about the Space Mountain music? Was there a story in mind when you were putting it together? I never got to ride with that original music, but the surf guitar made me feel like slinging yourself through space in one of these little rockets was sort of like the extreme sport of the future.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Sure. Fedex was going to sponsor the show and gave us an opportunity to do something new beyond the usual signage all over the place.There is alot that can be said about it, but I'll address the story. Michael Eisner wanted the music to be classical and recognizable like in in the movie 2001. Tony wanted the feel of John Williams a la Star Wars. I wanted something more contemporary as the audience was more teens and kids. I used to like to ride around in my car and drive to the Batman TV theme and tear out of the lot at lunch, or listen to D-i-c-k Dale as his music was featured in the then current movie "Pulp Fiction". Dale plays these incredible guitar licks that I would sync to as I took the curves in my VW Rabbit. My friend Tom Morris had expressed how he wanted to get music to play on SM and I thought maybe we could use Fedex money to add that enhancement. WDI R&D had been toying with adding an audio system but had no budget to do so. "The planets aligned" in our minds and my friend in the car one day said, why not use Dale? My first thought was that it was not a good fit and that Tony and Michael would never approve it. Then it occurred to me that if we used a classical melody with his guitar licks sync'd to the curves in the ride, it might be just right and unexpected. It could feel cool to teens who saw the movie and retro to Dad who knew Dale when he was the "Surf Guitar King". Kind of working on two levels. Prior to Dale's guitar licks, there was the Sci-Fi feel of a Theramin. We wanted to create a sense of "dread" on the lift and then release it with his music when we hear "we have ignition" (my voice). The choice of classical music was Camille Saint Saens "Aquarium", for it's magical spacey feel. I loved it in the France film at EPCOT and thought it would be cool speeded up. It got reluctantly approved. I wish we had a bigger budget for the music as the melody had to be done on a synthesizer. The audio system was basically a prototype and was not reliable. They got it right in later versions. The guest exit reviews for the music alone were over 95% excellent, which is rare and a good indicator. We also had a music video running in the queue that was NASA footage depicting the history of the space race, set to Dale's "Ghost Riders in the Sky". It was part of an "intergalactic channel surfing" program running in the queue.

As to a story per se, Space Mountain is pretty generic and we wanted to use the music to add speed to the ride and in surveys guests said the ride felt faster. Interesting. In WDW we could add music to those vehicles, so we showed Fedex as using Space Stations to deliver and beam packages to destinations.

Interesting coincidence was that when we were up to be approved, no one could see why I wanted Surf music in Space. Then a TV show called "3rd Rock from the Sun" came out and it had surf music in it's planetary opening and Bruce Gordon liked it. That somehow that justified my unusual choice and it went through. Thanks Bruce!

Here it is on youtube if you never heard it.


and the 3rd Rock opening. (Pretty lame, but you see the connection)

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

Funny we should talk about the old Dick Dale music. To me, it always seemed like I missed out on Space Mountain since it was closed for the '05 refurbishment for much of the time when my Disney memories were formed. However, I do remember, just vaguely, riding the pre-refurbishment version with the Dick Dale soundtrack. It will always have a special place in my heard because my younger brother would refuse to go on Space Mountain because "the loud music scared him." Seriously. He got off the ride crying just because of the music. So I guess you could be the one who scared my brother's child hood!

He was a funny one. Interestingly enough he loved Splash Mountain when he was really young because of the "cute critters." He'd suck it up for the big drop for the indoor portion.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I used to like to ride around in my car and drive to the Batman TV theme and tear out of the lot at lunch, or listen to D-i-c-k Dale as his music was featured in the then current movie "Pulp Fiction".

Just picturing this. Awesome.

On a tangentially related note, I am a FedEx driver. I like to match up my gear shifts to "Carol of the Bells" when I'm out pretending I'm Santa Claus delivering Christmas presents. It's the most epic Christmas music I know of.