Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

I think this is actually much of the appeal of WWHP. I found myself underwhelmed by FJ, but for me the real draw is Hogsmeade itself, with the loving recreations of Honeydukes and Zonkos. A lot of the gags in Zonkos probably don't sell all that much, but the packaging makes them a sort of prop, to make you feel like you're in this location you've read about and seen in movies.

You raise a good point about the merchandising in New Fantasyland. A lot of it, in Bonjour! Village Gifts and Gaston's Tavern, represents a concerted effort on the part of Disney to make a better merchandise experience for the guests. From the theming on down, it just seems much better than the endless gift shops selling the same 5 "Disney Parks" sweatshirts. Little ideas, like the "Dinglehopper" hair brushes and the Beauty and the Beast china give you a reason to stop in that shop, instead of just the ones you get funneled through at the end of a ride. I've yet to taste LeFou's Brew, but borrowing from the Butterbeer model seems to be paying off (pork shanks, too!)

I hear that they've done a good job, but I have not had the opportunity to experience the new Fantasyland yet. Let's hope the trend continues!

 

[ChrisFL]

Hmmm...now if only there was a way to disguise strollers...

I actually thought Disney could create strollers that look like a pirate ship or a princess carriage

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If you really want the experience that you have gone back in time or stepped into a movie, the evening tour at Hearst Castle is very good. I took it several years ago at the beginning of the Christmas season when the decorations had just gone up. The fog was rolling through which provided a lot of atmosphere and everywhere were actors dressed like they they were guests of Mr Hearst -- just mingling about or playing cards in the salon. With the small groups in the tours it was extremely effective -- perhaps one of the best themed events I have attended.

I've always assumed this is the type of experience that Disney was considering when he was thinking of applying his movie talents to creating a themed park like Disneyland. Eddie, your idea to strip the parks back to the essentials and redress them properly could be very effective. I think it is like what they were trying to achieve with Buena Vista Street except that they didn't carry it through far enough to the merchandise in the stores.

I just booked a night tour for the family!!!! So excited.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I actually thought Disney could create strollers that look like a pirate ship or a princess carriage

They could. If they made them too appealing, kids that could walk would ask for them. We discussed this earlier, but the number of strollers in the park compared to pictures in the old days has skyrocketed. Just storing them outside the Jungle Cruise and Nemo Subs is a nightmare.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I take it you aren't a fan of Mel. My post was making light of the Mel Brooks attraction that never was. Were you involved at any point in that design (Tower of Terror).

I want to elaborate on the project for a sentence or two. From what I recall and understood at the time, there were conversations with Brooks over doing a "Haunted Hotel" that had his sense of humor. It was to be in relation to the Studio Tour. I was pushing for a "Xanadu" (Citizen Kane) styled hotel that related to (Beverly Hills Hotel, Golden Age Star lifestyle, Movie Moguls,etc.) kind of like staying in Hearst Castle with weird exotic pools and grottoes, etc. A bit more adult. They ended up not having a hotel at the Entrance at all. They should reconsider, it would be great.

I'm not aware of how Brooks was to related to the TOT, other than perhaps an option if they could not do "Twilight Zone". That was a different team in another building. I loved his collaboration with Buck Henry on "Get Smart".

 

[Darth Sidious]

I want to elaborate on the project for a sentence or two. From what I recall and understood at the time, there were conversations with Brooks over doing a "Haunted Hotel" that had his sense of humor. It was to be in relation to the Studio Tour. I was pushing for a "Xanadu" (Citizen Kane) styled hotel that related to (Beverly Hills Hotel, Golden Age Star lifestyle, Movie Moguls,etc.) kind of like staying in Hearst Castle with weird exotic pools and grottoes, etc. A bit more adult. They ended up not having a hotel at the Entrance at all. They should reconsider, it would be great.

I'm not aware of how Brooks was to related to the TOT, other than perhaps an option if they could not do "Twilight Zone". That was a different team in another building. I loved his collaboration with Buck Henry on "Get Smart".

Sorry I misjudged your original post. I thought you just didn't care for him. As for the ride I read this at the following: http://www.towerofterror.org/history/early-development

I had heard about the hotel idea as well from marni's video on ToT. Seems like your hotel idea in DLP was well recieved. Any idea why they didn't do that here? Did it almost happen?

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

I'm glad I'm not the only jerk who hates people in the park.

I've always thought it'd be great to have some huge stroller parking space between areas of the park, so within the lands there'd be no strollers. For example, when I went to Disneyland with my aunt and 6 year old nephew (he has some sort of developmental issue, we don't know exactly what) I noticed that he'd be pushed around in the stroller through main street, and then they'd park the stroller in front of Snow White and do a bunch of Fantasyland rides without strollers. Or they'd park the stroller by the ROA before doing Pirates and Haunted Mansion. It'd be great if one day someone came up with a system in which strollers were stored underground with access in five locations or so. Obviously this isn't exactly feasible in Disneyland, but I'm sure they could figure out some sort of solution if they're clever.

 

[flynnibus]

Obviously what the parks need is more utilidors... so they can be used as underground stroller parking

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Obviously what the parks need is more utilidors... so they can be used as underground stroller parking

My recollection of the whole stroller issue with our kids was that walking was really slow and tired them out, so the stroller was a faster shuttle to each show to get all the value out of the visit. I wonder if the motivation to "get it all in" is part of the stroller thing, as it's easier to do that than wait for the kid to walk? Frankly its can be dangerous for small ones trying to navigate in the crowds.

 

[Knothead]

A stroller also doubles as a good place to keep all your extra stuff (change of clothes, baby stuff, souveniers, etc.) while you are on rides and attractions. Sure beats carrying all that crap with you all day. Both of my boys (7 and 2) are capable of walking all day, but we still bring the stroller as a mobile storage unit/rehydration cart. Our time at the parks would be seriously curtailed if we didn't bring it.

And if you don't like getting your ankles bruised, quit stopping in the middle of the walkway with no notice. I'm ruthless with that dang thing and i will not hesitate to run your over.

 

[hiptwinmama]

A stroller also doubles as a good place to keep all your extra stuff (change of clothes, baby stuff, souveniers, etc.) while you are on rides and attractions. Sure beats carrying all that crap with you all day. Both of my boys (7 and 2) are capable of walking all day, but we still bring the stroller as a mobile storage unit/rehydration cart. Our time at the parks would be seriously curtailed if we didn't bring it.

And if you don't like getting your ankles bruised, quit stopping in the middle of the walkway with no notice. I'm ruthless with that dang thing and i will not hesitate to run your over.

Amen...My girls are 6 we don't take a stroller, but many days we end up renting them late in the day. I am overly careful with it and super polite, but most people won't ever let you by with the stroller. They have to push to go first. You just push ahead, that 95 min wait will still be there. Which is why we stroller people have to push though. If we were all a little more polite and unselfish it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[flynnibus]

My recollection of the whole stroller issue with our kids was that walking was really slow and tired them out, so the stroller was a faster shuttle to each show to get all the value out of the visit. I wonder if the motivation to "get it all in" is part of the stroller thing, as it's easier to do that than wait for the kid to walk? Frankly its can be dangerous for small ones trying to navigate in the crowds.

There is a degree of that I believe.. the idea that the park experience has been greatly expanded with multiple gates, etc. Leisure is falling further and further behind 'commando'. But I think it's more about society and commodity nature of our society in the last 20-30 years.

• People feel the need to bring so much more with them these days. Gone are the days of a simple diaper bag with just wipes,diapers, a bottle, and maybe extra clothes. People bring the whole nursery with them now, multiple meals, snacks, etc.
• The move to a more less active society.. people are letting kids get away with far more.. making less fit kids. Older kids are tiring out.. in part because they aren't used to the activity level.
• Disney has empowered this behavior with this own actions - making it easier for people to use strollers
• People are less cognescent of the impact on others/the-whole with the 'me,me,me' mentaility that is prevalent today
• Disney's 'customer first, no questions asked' mentality opens the door for 'me me me' people to take a mile when given an inch.

It's an issue that is a microcosm of society in general.. from lifestyle to social responsibility. It's exaggerated at Disney because Disney empowers the behavior and the emphasis on 'scale' of things to do.

I took a stroller to WDW.. but we took a folding umbrella stroller for my youngest (4). Her older sisters (8 and 7) were on their own feet. The stroller was used to cover distances, and when she needed a break. Do I look down on people using strollers? No - they are a pratical necessity. What I don't like is when people use them as a crutch and are inconsiderate of their personal choices' impact on the whole.

To your question.. its an interesting angle to think.. Could Disney design the parks differently to minimize the 'need'? I think they could.. but I don't really think the surge in strollers is due to increased NEED but rather due to individual choices.

The best thing (IMO) Disney can do is help kids with services/food/break type stuff while making bringing strollers 'harder'.

Unfortunately in this society today - it seems the only way to influence behavior is with negative enforcement.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There is a degree of that I believe.. the idea that the park experience has been greatly expanded with multiple gates, etc. Leisure is falling further and further behind 'commando'. But I think it's more about society and commodity nature of our society in the last 20-30 years.

• People feel the need to bring so much more with them these days. Gone are the days of a simple diaper bag with just wipes,diapers, a bottle, and maybe extra clothes. People bring the whole nursery with them now, multiple meals, snacks, etc.
• The move to a more less active society.. people are letting kids get away with far more.. making less fit kids. Older kids are tiring out.. in part because they aren't used to the activity level.
• Disney has empowered this behavior with this own actions - making it easier for people to use strollers
• People are less cognescent of the impact on others/the-whole with the 'me,me,me' mentaility that is prevalent today
• Disney's 'customer first, no questions asked' mentality opens the door for 'me me me' people to take a mile when given an inch.

It's an issue that is a microcosm of society in general.. from lifestyle to social responsibility. It's exaggerated at Disney because Disney empowers the behavior and the emphasis on 'scale' of things to do.


I took a stroller to WDW.. but we took a folding umbrella stroller for my youngest (4). Her older sisters (8 and 7) were on their own feet. The stroller was used to cover distances, and when she needed a break. Do I look down on people using strollers? No - they are a pratical necessity. What I don't like is when people use them as a crutch and are inconsiderate of their personal choices' impact on the whole.

To your question.. its an interesting angle to think.. Could Disney design the parks differently to minimize the 'need'? I think they could.. but I don't really think the surge in strollers is due to increased NEED but rather due to individual choices.

The best thing (IMO) Disney can do is help kids with services/food/break type stuff while making bringing strollers 'harder'.

Unfortunately in this society today - it seems the only way to influence behavior is with negative enforcement.

True enough and well said. I recently visited several national parks in Northern California and noticed that the crowds consisted of mostly families, yet did not notice the plethora of strollers that you find in theme parks. It makes me wonder whether the expectation of being in a rustic environment and having to walk everywhere and be active without deadlines had any effect? Your observations seem very reasonable and I would tend to agree that behavior in the park is a mirror of society in general. If you look at the way people used to dress to visit Disneyland of the way they do today it's very different. Of course, when you look at the powered wheelchair phenomenon that is taken over you open up another parking situation. To your point, when society has lost a sense of compassion for others, you end up having to legislate behavior because no one is motivated on their own to behave with consideration.

 

[flynnibus]

True enough and well said. I recently visited several national parks in Northern California and noticed that the crowds consisted of mostly families, yet did not notice the plethora of strollers that you find in theme parks. It makes me wonder whether the expectation of being in a rustic environment and having to walk everywhere and be active without deadlines had any effect?

But when you travel abroad, you see the same delta, so I don't think it has to do with the rustic sense. I think a factor that is dominate tho is 'how easy is it to use here?'. How easy is it to push around? How easy is it to navigate through the spaces? How easy is it to get the stroller to the site itself?

Those are all factors that would discourage usage - but in the interest of making it better for those that need strollers, disney removes those barriers. And the unintended consequence is now those beyond the 'need' line, find the stroller simply an 'easier' way of visiting.. and the usage swells.

This is Disney 'empowering' the problem.

Imagine if there were no stroller parking at all - Strollers didn't fit in attractions and people had to stay with their stroller all the time. I bet usage would drop off significantly (after a difficult period of new enforcement). Would it work? I think so. Would it be customer friendly? No.. so its not really viable.

Could Disney stop making it SO easy? I think so.. but it would come at a cost (lost revenue) and customer sat. Losses I don't think Disney could stomach.

So what does that leave us? Probably park design.. but what I don't know is.. does that only make the problem WORSE by further enabling the behavior? So the answer is probably somewhere in the middle of making it not soo easy, but add some pain to the mix.

Look at politics.. the only way to get consensus is to make EVERYONE feel the pain. Selfishness prevents the masses from supporting 'the common good' anymore. On a tangent.. I think that is the grain of our society that will cause the end of our period.. but that's a sidebar

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Today we lost an Imagineer that not many of you may be familiar with. His name is Roger Broggie Jr. His father Roger Sr. was responsible for building the Steam Trains for the Parks. More of you are probably familiar with him as he is a Disney legend. His son also had the gift of mechanics but to me was also very much of a "can-do" guy. There is a post on the Disney family Museum site about his passing.

http://www.waltdisney.org/content/memory-roger-broggie-jr#comment-4897

Roger worked for a design company made up of ex-Imagineers, ("The Only Animated Display and Design Company") and they were assigned to work with me on my very first project at Knott's Berry Farm in 1979. This was my first exposure to 1G Imagineers and their process of design. The whole process was magical. That was thanks to Roger Jr.and his partner Jim along with the design director Frederick Hope. I was so unqualified to be the design director instructing them on what I wanted, I was in fear of gross intimidation. In fact, it was exactly the opposite experience. They saw my zeal for Disney and my admiration for what they do and instead of lording it over me, they took me in and instructed me about the real magic of imagination and engineering working together. Roger's great sense of humor and lack of fear to try things was infectious and gave me confidence even today that you can have wild ideas and there will be someone there insane enough to take them on and try to build them. The world we live in today kind of rails against that, and we need more people with the spirit of Roger Broggie Jr. Jim Elliott, his partner has that spirit and so does Frederick Hope the design director. I'm sure they feel the loss of Roger as well. He will be missed as true Imagineering is not a group of superstars, but a zealous collaboration of those willing to do the impossible.

 

[Wojciehowicz]

Strollers, that's kid stuff. How about the recent decision to allow ESVs , electric standing vehicles, into the WDW parks. Of course they can also be brought on all modes of WDW transportation. Not to mention that Disney already has a rental version. Is that opening a can of worms?
And no, Segways are still banned.

 

[Omnispace]

I just booked a night tour for the family!!!! So excited.

Excellent! I hope you have an enjoyable time! The film they show in the visitor's center is also good if you have time to watch it before your tour.

Interesting, I don't think Walt Disney was ever a guest of Mr. Hearst.

 

[Omnispace]

Obviously what the parks need is more utilidors... so they can be used as underground stroller parking

Perhaps the AVAC system can be adopted to whisk the tykes about? Meltdown??... ..you simply push the pod-shaped stroller into the proper receptacle and they get shot-off to daycare for a nap! Next Gen RFID technology will ensure you get your particular child back at the end of the day...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Excellent! I hope you have an enjoyable time! The film they show in the visitor's center is also good if you have time to watch it before your tour.

Interesting, I don't think Walt Disney was ever a guest of Mr. Hearst.

That would be fun to look into. I'm gonna try and make the movie first. I'm reading the book "The Times we Had" about life with Hearst by Marion Davies right now.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Strollers, that's kid stuff. How about the recent decision to allow ESVs , electric standing vehicles, into the WDW parks. Of course they can also be brought on all modes of WDW transportation. Not to mention that Disney already has a rental version. Is that opening a can of worms?
And no, Segways are still banned.

Hmmm. Not sure about the wisdom of that.