Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[flynnibus]

So the summary answer to the question is that there are a variety of reasons that Disney is more successful than these historic villages. Or rather, or if Disney can more closely mimic them. Historic merchandise does not sell as well as character merchandise. The square footage is so valuable to the company, they cannot afford to have a shelf that doesn't have merchandise that will turn over immediately. I think they can't afford not to. But that's just me. I yearn for the time that both Liberty Square and New Orleans Square had balance, they had a mixture of real antiques curated by someone with great taste, offset by more mainstream character merchandise taking its rightful place elsewhere.

this touches on an interesting quandary. That Main street.. our prime example of desire for a more 'pure' experience.. happens to sit on the prime-st of real estate on the sole avenue leading out of the park. Does MS's location doom it to this constant struggle between park merchandise vs themed or unique experience?

Or can we say.. by making Main Street large enough.. you give enough space so that the unique stuff can be intermixed. I would hope if Main Street hadn't been ravenged into single shops.. that more of those 'identity' shops and merchandise could have survived.

Each of the parks have a major 'world of disney' type store right outside the gates. I think an interesting study would be to see why its hard to convert guests to use that location vs the emporium location. Is it proximity to the park? Is it the setting? Is there a stigma that stuff sold in the parks proper is 'better'? (my money is on the last point a good bit.. lack of awareness of the key shop in DTD, etc).

I guess it boils down to.. the 'cheezy' merch moves.. and that money is untouchable. So maybe it's about managing a better coexistance rather than either extreme?

I would prefer the land specific merch in the parks.. and use the DTD locations as the 'walmart' where you can get any and almost anything. Somethings (I think) deserve to still be land-specific and only in the parks.

 

[Rasvar]

Eddie, I would just be happy to see a return of shops that were themed for the area. I really miss the antique shop in Liberty Square for one. The homogenization of the shops kill the theme for me. Just have the proper themeing and I would be a lot happier. Unfortunately, I know it is about maximizing revenue. The idea of a loss leader shop to help the theme is too 50's and 60's now.

Much as flynnibus said, the identity shops. Losing the Penny Arcade and the merging of many of the shops hurt Main Street theme. Even the current Harmony Barber Shop location is much too sanitized compared to its original location in the back corner of the Emporium. I miss the old style cash registers too. I have never understood that with all of the video and computer capability that they have not been able to create a computerized cash register that has an emulation of the old style cash register display for the customer, complete with mechanical sounds.

 

[celluloid]

Universal showcased the concept of individual specialty shops still creates such an illusion of a world and quite successfully all around without homogenizing in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter and Seuss areas, particularly so with Harry Potter has shown to be a part of its success for both thematic and profit sides of the coin.

I miss my Main Street Magic shop.

Side note, a friend was called by his bank with a concern over his credit card in 2010 with a charge to "Zonko's Joke Shop" and the location stated something about being incorporated in Hogsmeade, England. Perhaps overboard but that's thematic elements to the max!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

this touches on an interesting quandary. That Main street.. our prime example of desire for a more 'pure' experience.. happens to sit on the prime-st of real estate on the sole avenue leading out of the park. Does MS's location doom it to this constant struggle between park merchandise vs themed or unique experience?

Or can we say.. by making Main Street large enough.. you give enough space so that the unique stuff can be intermixed. I would hope if Main Street hadn't been ravenged into single shops.. that more of those 'identity' shops and merchandise could have survived.

Each of the parks have a major 'world of disney' type store right outside the gates. I think an interesting study would be to see why its hard to convert guests to use that location vs the emporium location. Is it proximity to the park? Is it the setting? Is there a stigma that stuff sold in the parks proper is 'better'? (my money is on the last point a good bit.. lack of awareness of the key shop in DTD, etc).

I guess it boils down to.. the 'cheezy' merch moves.. and that money is untouchable. So maybe it's about managing a better coexistance rather than either extreme?

I would prefer the land specific merch in the parks.. and use the DTD locations as the 'walmart' where you can get any and almost anything. Somethings (I think) deserve to still be land-specific and only in the parks.

I think if you made Main Street any larger it would just end up being filled with the same generic merchandise over time. What used to happen back in my day was that they looked at all of the things they sold and selected the top 10 or 20%, and then decided to get rid of all the stuff at the bottom of that list and begin to expand the 20% or 10% to be more of the entire collection. This philosophy was kind of like thinking that if McDonald's french fries are the most popular thing they have why not get rid of the burgers and just have all french fries? So that began the erosion of the most popular items becoming everywhere and a sense of variety in the shopping experience began to disappear. Because the thinking was, once you had every shelf filled with the most popular items, everything would sell like mad. It's kind of like the financial planners at the studio telling the directors to only make the "hit" movies. Of course, what really happens is that once you spread the 20% everywhere and highlight the top 10%, then there has to be a least popular item of that 20% and then it gets eliminated. I have to think that the whole "Disney parks" merchandise concept came from that sort of "sifting" mentality of "sanding off the edges" of anything potentially special on the lower part of that list, and simplifying everything down to its lowest common denominator. I have no proof of this, but it seems like that. So where do you stop? I guess you stop when people get sick of looking at the same things and they just quit buying it. That does not seem to have happened. Of course, if I was in merchandise I would say to people like me "If you are so smart, why are we so successful?". Good question. To be fair, I got along great with the people in merchandise and they are the first ones to ask how something could be more exciting and more interesting and how they could sell that. But they are so incredibly successful, it becomes difficult to launch new and risky items when the formulaic ones automatically fly out the door. That shelf is worth a fortune and you have to put something on there you know will move or no bonus.

There was thinking when the World of Disney was being built that it was going to cannibalize the Emporium. Apparently, that did not happen, and people just kept buying more. I think if they missed the Emporium perhaps they would buy something in the world of Disney. I do believe that there has to be some degree of locals that buy at the World of Disney because they can do so without entering the park. It's kind of like the Duty Free Shop right before your flight.

So I guess that was what I was trying to convey as well, was your idea of a "coexistence" to some degree. I think that's where WDI sits now and strives for. Giving the Magic Shop to an outside company that specializes in magic was a terrific idea and has resurrected that shop from the dead.

The reason I said I have a dream was because I thought it could only work in that realm. Not because my dream was to really make it happen.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Universal showcased the concept of individual specialty shops still creates such an illusion of a world and quite successfully all around without homogenizing in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter and Seuss areas, particularly so with Harry Potter has shown to be a part of its success for both thematic and profit sides of the coin.

I miss my Main Street Magic shop.

Side note, a friend was called by his bank with a concern over his credit card in 2010 with a charge to "Zonko's Joke Shop" and the location stated something about being incorporated in Hogsmeade, England. Perhaps overboard but that's thematic elements to the max!

I think Universal is really pushing itself and leading in this area. Perhaps we'll see a reaction at Disney, and if Gaston's Tavern with its own Unique product is any indication, it seems that they are listening. Isn't competition great?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I would just be happy to see a return of shops that were themed for the area. I really miss the antique shop in Liberty Square for one. The homogenization of the shops kill the theme for me. Just have the proper themeing and I would be a lot happier. Unfortunately, I know it is about maximizing revenue. The idea of a loss leader shop to help the theme is too 50's and 60's now.

Much as flynnibus said, the identity shops. Losing the Penny Arcade and the merging of many of the shops hurt Main Street theme. Even the current Harmony Barber Shop location is much too sanitized compared to its original location in the back corner of the Emporium. I miss the old style cash registers too. I have never understood that with all of the video and computer capability that they have not been able to create a computerized cash register that has an emulation of the old style cash register display for the customer, complete with mechanical sounds.

I could not agree with you more. Just the richness of variety has a value. One of the most successful shopping villages in Los Angeles is called the Brentwood Country Mart. It looks like a page out of Knott's Berry Farm, and has lots of mom-and-pop stores mixed with incredibly expensive high-end shops. To keep the old charm of the 1940s they left the original Post Office, Cobbler and Barber shop. It has a food court, and in addition to a high-end but casual restaurant, still has the same fried chicken stand from the 1960s intact. This juxtaposition of small businesses with hometown charm has made this shopping center a model for real estate developers. It is all of the formulas that you talk about. I.eat lunch there probably three times a week because I love sitting on the picnic benches and shopping in the bookstore. They found a way to make expensive shops and food experiences live comfortably in a casual homespun environment with something affordable for everyone. This place does not feel like retail, it feels like home. That's how Main Street should feel.

http://brentwoodcountrymart.com

 

[Calvin Coolidge]

I think Universal is really pushing itself and leading in this area. Perhaps we'll see a reaction at Disney, and if Gaston's Tavern with its own Unique product is any indication, it seems that they are listening. Isn't competition great?

I think this is actually much of the appeal of WWHP. I found myself underwhelmed by FJ, but for me the real draw is Hogsmeade itself, with the loving recreations of Honeydukes and Zonkos. A lot of the gags in Zonkos probably don't sell all that much, but the packaging makes them a sort of prop, to make you feel like you're in this location you've read about and seen in movies.

You raise a good point about the merchandising in New Fantasyland. A lot of it, in Bonjour! Village Gifts and Gaston's Tavern, represents a concerted effort on the part of Disney to make a better merchandise experience for the guests. From the theming on down, it just seems much better than the endless gift shops selling the same 5 "Disney Parks" sweatshirts. Little ideas, like the "Dinglehopper" hair brushes and the Beauty and the Beast china give you a reason to stop in that shop, instead of just the ones you get funneled through at the end of a ride. I've yet to taste LeFou's Brew, but borrowing from the Butterbeer model seems to be paying off (pork shanks, too!)

 

[Darth Sidious]

Disney could buy Mel Brooks for a song.

I take it you aren't a fan of Mel. My post was making light of the Mel Brooks attraction that never was. Were you involved at any point in that design (Tower of Terror).

 

[Omnispace]

If you really want the experience that you have gone back in time or stepped into a movie, the evening tour at Hearst Castle is very good. I took it several years ago at the beginning of the Christmas season when the decorations had just gone up. The fog was rolling through which provided a lot of atmosphere and everywhere were actors dressed like they they were guests of Mr Hearst -- just mingling about or playing cards in the salon. With the small groups in the tours it was extremely effective -- perhaps one of the best themed events I have attended.

I've always assumed this is the type of experience that Disney was considering when he was thinking of applying his movie talents to creating a themed park like Disneyland. Eddie, your idea to strip the parks back to the essentials and redress them properly could be very effective. I think it is like what they were trying to achieve with Buena Vista Street except that they didn't carry it through far enough to the merchandise in the stores.

 

[JLW11Hi]

I have a dream.

It may not sound like much on the surface, but when fully imagined, it probably could only be a dream. Here goes.

I would love to see an evening where all of the merchandise is removed from the Magic Kingdom and all of the architectural distractions are removed as well. Like scraping away all of the crust from the top of a ketchup bottle. All of those "layers" that were never intended, but were added over time by necessity, like credit card advertisements at the cash register, or booths that sell timeshares, incongruous track lighting and slatwall, speaker and lighting poles, and the plethora of operational signage, trash cans, turnstiles, and other contradictory minutia. (Fat chance you say? That's why it's called a dream. But it's mine and I'm not done yet.) Once the land is free of thematic contradiction and the only thing left are the "sets on the stage", I would invite motion picture set decorators to come with truckloads of props and dressings, even the appropriate merchandise, and redecorate all of the spaces inside and out to be properly themed to a level of depth and realism that truly transports us to those worlds of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy. We would then rent theatrical costumes for the cast members that are varied and different and reflect their personality. As a finishing touch, actors provide "Streetmosphere" throughout each themed realm. No character parade.

Of course in this dream, I've hidden an access code in this post (DREAMALIVE) and so you are all invited to the richest thematic evening ever. Okay I'm done.

So the reason this is a dream is because I have always wondered what the true unbridled thematic potential really is underneath all of the commercial and operational requirements of a Disney Park. I want it all to be real like a movie, if just for one night. Then they can go back to selling Churros. I think that's one reason why it's so fun to walk around in the evening or in the morning before or after opening. Having the park to yourself allows you to be at one with the theme of each land. Perhaps even to silently role-play in the back of your mind.
Trying to make Main Street as much like a movie set as possible was one of our goals on Disneyland Paris. In a way, when I visit the park and walk through those façades I secretly wish that they would pay off like the sets of the movie, but I know that's not possible, and yes, I would like fries with that.

I love it. This is the way I always hoped a theme park visit would be. Fully realized. You left out one of the most important parts, though: the guests! A full realization of this experience would require visitors to dress somewhat appropriately, because a sea of crocs and shorts really stand out when you are trying to recreate 1890s midwestern America or 1920s Hollywood. Not everyone would need to wear costumes, but at least wear some nice dress clothes to help people blend in to the "scene" better.

 

[articos]

I have a dream.

It may not sound like much on the surface, but when fully imagined, it probably could only be a dream. Here goes.

I would love to see an evening where all of the merchandise is removed from the Magic Kingdom and all of the architectural distractions are removed as well. Like scraping away all of the crust from the top of a ketchup bottle. All of those "layers" that were never intended, but were added over time by necessity, like credit card advertisements at the cash register, or booths that sell timeshares, incongruous track lighting and slatwall, speaker and lighting poles, and the plethora of operational signage, trash cans, turnstiles, and other contradictory minutia. (Fat chance you say? That's why it's called a dream. But it's mine and I'm not done yet.) Once the land is free of thematic contradiction and the only thing left are the "sets on the stage", I would invite motion picture set decorators to come with truckloads of props and dressings, even the appropriate merchandise, and redecorate all of the spaces inside and out to be properly themed to a level of depth and realism that truly transports us to those worlds of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy. We would then rent theatrical costumes for the cast members that are varied and different and reflect their personality. As a finishing touch, actors provide "Streetmosphere" throughout each themed realm. No character parade.

Of course in this dream, I've hidden an access code in this post (DREAMALIVE) and so you are all invited to the richest thematic evening ever. Okay I'm done.

So the reason this is a dream is because I have always wondered what the true unbridled thematic potential really is underneath all of the commercial and operational requirements of a Disney Park. I want it all to be real like a movie, if just for one night. Then they can go back to selling Churros. I think that's one reason why it's so fun to walk around in the evening or in the morning before or after opening. Having the park to yourself allows you to be at one with the theme of each land. Perhaps even to silently role-play in the back of your mind.
Trying to make Main Street as much like a movie set as possible was one of our goals on Disneyland Paris. In a way, when I visit the park and walk through those façades I secretly wish that they would pay off like the sets of the movie, but I know that's not possible, and yes, I would like fries with that.

Ah, Eddie. As you know, this dream was also (somewhat) reality for about a month or so, with the re-opening of DCA, specifically with Buena Vista Street. Or it was about as close as we are going to come to achieving what you're talking about in reality. Set dressing in the windows and merchandise that matched the environment. Then the intent slowly but surely, yet unintentionally, gets pushed aside by people just doing their jobs. I've always thought with more training, it is entirely possible to stay much closer to the intent of the theme and design, but the behemoth is just too big to keep under control now.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I take it you aren't a fan of Mel. My post was making light of the Mel Brooks attraction that never was. Were you involved at any point in that design (Tower of Terror).

I am. He is one talented legend. I heard about it but was not directly involved in the project.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If you really want the experience that you have gone back in time or stepped into a movie, the evening tour at Hearst Castle is very good. I took it several years ago at the beginning of the Christmas season when the decorations had just gone up. The fog was rolling through which provided a lot of atmosphere and everywhere were actors dressed like they they were guests of Mr Hearst -- just mingling about or playing cards in the salon. With the small groups in the tours it was extremely effective -- perhaps one of the best themed events I have attended.

I've always assumed this is the type of experience that Disney was considering when he was thinking of applying his movie talents to creating a themed park like Disneyland. Eddie, your idea to strip the parks back to the essentials and redress them properly could be very effective. I think it is like what they were trying to achieve with Buena Vista Street except that they didn't carry it through far enough to the merchandise in the stores.

I know of that tour and have been literally dying to do the themed one. Now I"m excited again.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I love it. This is the way I always hoped a theme park visit would be. Fully realized. You left out one of the most important parts, though: the guests! A full realization of this experience would require visitors to dress somewhat appropriately, because a sea of crocs and shorts really stand out when you are trying to recreate 1890s midwestern America or 1920s Hollywood. Not everyone would need to wear costumes, but at least wear some nice dress clothes to help people blend in to the "scene" better.

Sorry....I left the guests out because they usually wreck it for me. Strollers for days. If you did have guests then yes, it would be best if they all blended into the theme. Imagine the number of dressing rooms as they would have to change clothes to visit other lands!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Speaking of dreams. When I was very young and I used to walk down Main Street looking up at the second-story windows I'd imagine what was going on up there and who was living there. It was kind of a fantasy that someday you would go into those second-story spaces and find something that fully met your expectation. In a way, I think Walt Disney had the same fantasy, only he looked up at the firehouse window and decided to make it real and live in the park himself. He truly understood the why of the immersive themed experience.

 

[celluloid]

Well said. Coming from this poster who wants to have a creative career as much as possible with the parks/any creative field at this point I firmly believe the same thing.​

​

From the perspective of a magic enthusiast it makes sense as the parks are one big Illusion and that particular aspect. The bottom layer as made up and functional as possible and the second story and beyond where guests can't access relies on the power of Suggestion. The imagination and suggestions completes that illusion. There are certainly many examples of this in well done theme parks.​

 

[lazyboy97o]

I do not see why more cannot be done to conceal "necessary" infrastructure. Why can't the point-of-sale computer in a Main Street shop be placed within a properly decorated casing that looks, to the guest, more like an old fashioned cash register? Why not use screens for the register display in which the image is period appropriate to the theme? Yes, this is more to maintain and organize, but that is part of showmanship. Take a bit of the steampunk approach and reinterpret the anachronism as though it were true to the era.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I do not see why more cannot be done to conceal "necessary" infrastructure. Why can't the point-of-sale computer in a Main Street shop be placed within a properly decorated casing that looks, to the guest, more like an old fashioned cash register? Why not use screens for the register display in which the image is period appropriate to the theme? Yes, this is more to maintain and organize, but that is part of showmanship. Take a bit of the steampunk approach and reinterpret the anachronism as though it were true to the era.

Good suggestion. I could not agree with you more. Shrouding cash registers and stainless steel food service equipment has been something that Imagineers have had to contend with for years. I believe that since the form factor of the cash register has evolved into more of a touchscreen monitor the task of disguising them has become far more difficult than it used to be. I remember the days when they would scenically paint the metal cash register to look like aged wood. That worked pretty well in Adventureland. These small details of making a seamless experience are still critically important no matter how great the challenge might become. Because when you allow these little contradictions of theme to grow then the next decision to erode the theme only becomes easier. Where do you draw the line? When you take the extra time and cost to theme those smaller parts of the guest experience like making a purchase, then you're making a statement about the level of conviction you have about putting on the show in the first place.

Of course, the real world has gotten to be very good at creating themed experiences. You remind me of a 1940s themed diner called Ruby's. In their stores they created a three sided wooden version of a cash register from that time and shrouded their computer with it. They even put chewing gum in the display case below it that were re-created from the 1940s. It just told me that for the price of a cheeseburger they really care about their theme and me buying into it. That is worth something. You can see from this view how the computer screen is shrouded by the old time cash register façade.

 

[Calvin Coolidge]

Hmmm...now if only there was a way to disguise strollers...

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well said. Coming from this poster who wants to have a creative career as much as possible with the parks/any creative field at this point I firmly believe the same thing.​

​

From the perspective of a magic enthusiast it makes sense as the parks are one big Illusion and that particular aspect. The bottom layer as made up and functional as possible and the second story and beyond where guests can't access relies on the power of Suggestion. The imagination and suggestions completes that illusion. There are certainly many examples of this in well done theme parks.​

So when you see something that contradicts and distracts you from the spell that the theme has woven, you were taken out of that world and reminded of the one you just paid to get out of. That is why it's so critically important to find ways to reinforce the fantasy at all times. Sometimes it seems that there are so many layers of reality put into the thematic lands that they all become the same experience at some level with food carts, merchandise etc. set within a different overlay of styling.

One reason we put the sound effects into the upstairs windows of Main Street ( dentist office, piano lessons, hotel guest, dancing lessons) was to add Street character to those upstairs windows that had laid silent for so many years. Walt Disney had done exactly that to the small buildings of Rainbow Ridge, in the Nature's Wonderland attraction. Doing that on Main Street was an homage to that original idea.