Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Pixiedustmaker]

Mermaid was done on a grand scale and using different medium (dimensional figures and white light mostly), so they changed their own "rules" and in doing so had different challenges and expectations from the guest. Making magic can be harder to do as you have to hide everything.

It looked pretty lavish to me, especially the massive building it is housed in. I'd guess that different crews worked on Mermaid in DCA and did not borrow that much from Tony.

I think it is helpful to compare Small World to Mermaid. Both use white light and hence you can see some of the "guts" of the ride. (Actually, if I could do anything at Disneyland to a ride it would be to spruce up Small World so that you couldn't see so much of the show "guts", AND add transition scenes in the black connecting rooms, as well as some other pluses.)

Small World works because while a "magical" suspension of reality isn't achieved, what is done is so artistic and detailed you enjoy just looking at the scenes. Mermaid doesn't have the same level of detail, IMHO, just a lot of replicated plastic fish and two-dimensional seaweed.

List below is a link to a CGI mock-up of a Mermaid ride that I believe Tony Baxter introduced on a Mermaid DVD. It is higher quality than the ride we have, such as in the details of the coral in the Under the Sea scene, but some stuff is "lifted" right from this video, such as the storks at the beginning of the Kiss the Girl scene (which move in Tony's version and don't in the real version), and scenes such as Ariel's Grotto, Ursula's lair, and the Under the Sea . . . but there are tons of scenes left out of the ride we got.

Tony's version has great transition scenes with animal life, sea life . . . not everything needs to be a memorable scene from the film.



A lot of the mechanized effects were removed, maybe because less moving parts means less to repair, but some of this stuff is pretty basic.

Tony's version seems to have two different levels/floor, as the ride vehicle dips into the under the sea segments noticeably, so I thin think that this ride could have been built at DCA even given space limitations if they had sunk the building into the ground so that the basement/first floor at below ground level.

 

[Calvin Coolidge]

My main problem with Mermaid is that so much of the ride is devoted to the Under The Sea room, which I get is the movie's most famous song, but is pretty removed from the story, especially when it's given no context. And the way you just slowly crawl through that room, with a bunch of nondescript cartoon fish swaying back and forth just really drags down the experience.

I will say that I think the Ursula AA is FANTASTIC, and the Kiss the Girl scene is pretty great, too, but I wish they were framed better. The Ursula AA is good enough to make the whole attraction worthwhile, to me. I suspect that the ride would be better if it was less about "hear your favorite songs!" and more about "what scenes can we show that would make a great ride." I'm not against the use of video in a dark ride (just look at Pooh's Hunny Hunt) but it feels like it's used as a crutch in Mermaid.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Unbuilt attractions are always legends. Why? Because we imagine them only for what we love about them, not for how they might of been executed in reality. The unbuilt attractions never run out of money, have no one in management to kill their best ideas, and pretty much have no visible tracks or or safety equipment to spoil the illusion.

I think we have to be very careful when you compare a computer animated simulation to a fully executed product. Computer animation can hide many flaws in many areas that in execution may not have worked so well. When we compare the computer animated version of mermaid several things stand out to me. One is that I like the ride vehicle much more than an omni-mover system so that is a "plus" in my book. All of the little things in a white light ride that can distract from the magic are not present in a computer animation. your field of view in a computer animated simulation is incredibly narrow compared to your peripheral vision and so in some cases you end up believing that the simulation has more direct storytelling to it. I even noticed some selective spotlights that were follow spotlighting characters in front of you to help direct your attention to what was going on. I'm not even sure that the under the sea sequence with its low ceilings is as dramatic as was done in the final attraction. Simulations don't show exit signs, lighting equipment, tracks and all the clearances that they represent and the true lighting situation. For example, when entering Ursula's world you have rotating circles of creatures that cross the track. Maybe they came up with some kind of way to do that but it seems a bit risky. Looked like a cheat to me. When you dive below the surface you seem to be in an area with a very low ceiling and the track. In reality, the track would most likely become far more obvious, not to mention the omission of all the lights that are lighting the characters. Not to say that I don't prefer the computer animated version, but I think to be very fair to the fully executed version that there are many liberties that are taken when the ride lives in pixels. When you're using motion picture footage in a simulation like that, everything seems to live together very well and nothing is betrayed as fake or as fiberglass figures. By the way, the finale ending in the computer animated version seems very lackluster with a distant ship with them waving. It just seemed a very anti-climactic.

The one thing about "It's a small world" is that it doesn't pretend to be something it is not. The dolls are not living creatures nor do they attempt to be. It's just incredibly charming and artfully done as a display of animated toys. What it is however, is incredibly immersive and good at what it sets out to do. The song is a tremendous thread that holds all of the sequences into one long tracking shot. Would I rather not see all the lights in the ceiling? Sure. Doesn't bother me that they are visible? No, because it is consistent.

I won't argue that every kid is not in love with the little Mermaid ride or may not want to repeat it. I'm just giving you some of the comments that I have heard that are positive and beyond these boards. I think non-Disney fans seem to like it, yet it's probably not their favorite attraction. It probably is very good that it exists in the context of DCA as it is not competitive or compared to the other Fantasyland attractions.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

And that all reminds me very much of your plan to unify Pirates, Mansion and Tom Sawyer Island through Jean Lafitte. I can definitely see the angle from which you were approaching the idea. It would've been a brilliant way to expand the "underworld" of NOS.

Here is a painting Dan Goozee did for Tony, where we designed a New Orleans Square for outside of DLP as an Entertainment District. We had also proposed an "underground kind" of idea with Bayous, etc. I did a cross section view of it that is out there on the net someplace. This would have been Jean Laffite on crack.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Here is a painting Dan Goozee did for Tony, where we designed a New Orleans Square for outside of DLP as an Entertainment District. We had also proposed an "underground kind" of idea with Bayous, etc. I see the Riverboat so it may have also been pitched as an addition to DLP, but I kind of doubt that. This would have been Jean Laffite on crack.

View attachment 28355

That seems really cool. With Big Thunder, Phantom Manor, Space Mountain, Adventure Isle and MSUSA of course, there was obviously a lot of thought into reinventing the classics for Paris. New Orleans Square would have a lot to offer as the basis for this type of area. What happened to it? Too ambitious? Given that it would've been outside the parks, I'd imagine the company would look even harder at every square foot that wasn't generating revenue. What the French think of the Creole culture in Louisiana?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That seems really cool. With Big Thunder, Phantom Manor, Space Mountain, Adventure Isle and MSUSA of course, there was obviously a lot of thought into reinventing the classics for Paris. New Orleans Square would have a lot to offer as the basis for this type of area. What happened to it? Too ambitious? Given that it would've been outside the parks, I'd imagine the company would look even harder at every square foot that wasn't generating revenue. What the French think of the Creole culture in Louisiana?

I believe it was the cost first and foremost. If you look at the downtown Disney they actually built, it was insanely modest. Frank Geary pretty much designed on a shoestring. We were swinging for the fences so to speak, as anything themed outside of the gate with the exception of the Disneyland Hotel was somewhat over the top.

Jazz is popular in Europe and especially France so that was the centerpiece of our New Orleans idea. We tried to get that feel into the 1920's Main Street but failed, so this was likely to be a final attempt to get that jazz feel into the project. New Orleans in of itself is a very unique environment as it borrows from both Spanish and French cultures, yet has a uniquely American feel to it. When you add all the intrigue and underground romance with piracy, music, and cuisine you have a pretty nice package. At least that's what we thought. I don't think anyone disagreed, it was more of a question of cost.

On that project, there was a bit of highbrow anti-theme prejudice going on when it came to the hotel area. As bad as the theme was on the Western themed hotel, it was still supposed to have some sort of an intellectual conceit. Most of the hotel proposals exposed the lack of creativity or discomfort the architects had with trying to do a Disney hotel project. That's just my opinion. I think the New Orleans idea would've been really well received if it was done at a high level of execution and was true to itself. All of those New Orleans jazz greats performed in Paris and were incredibly well received. You might even argue that they were more appreciated in Europe than they were in America, but I'm no expert.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I believe it was the cost first and foremost. If you look at the downtown Disney they actually built, it was insanely modest. Frank Geary pretty much designed on a shoestring. We were swinging for the fences so to speak, as anything themed outside of the gate with the exception of the Disneyland Hotel was somewhat over the top.

Jazz is popular in Europe and especially France so that was the centerpiece of our New Orleans idea. We tried to get that feel into the 1920's Main Street but failed, so this was likely to be a final attempt to get that jazz feel into the project. New Orleans in of itself is a very unique environment as it borrows from both Spanish and French cultures, yet has a uniquely American feel to it. When you add all the intrigue and underground romance with piracy, music, and cuisine you have a pretty nice package. At least that's what we thought. I don't think anyone disagreed, it was more of a question of cost.

On that project, there was a bit of highbrow anti-theme prejudice going on when it came to the hotel area. As bad as the theme was on the Western themed hotel, it was still supposed to have some sort of an intellectual conceit. Most of the hotel proposals exposed the lack of creativity or discomfort the architects had with trying to do a Disney hotel project. That's just my opinion. I think the New Orleans idea would've been really well received if it was done at a high level of execution and was true to itself. All of those New Orleans jazz greats performed in Paris and were incredibly well received. You might even argue that they were more appreciated in Europe than they were in America, but I'm no expert.

One wonders with rumblings about a redo of that area...

 

[Cosmic Commando]

I think the New Orleans idea would've been really well received if it was done at a high level of execution and was true to itself.

Absolutely. People recognize and respect quality. It really does look neat. It blurs the line between what we think of as a theme park and a "Downtown Disney" for lack of a better term. Rivers of America and New Orleans Square meets Pleasure Island sort of. If they announced that for the former Pleasure Island spot, I think you'd erase a lot of the complaints about the blunders there. It reminds me of the San Antonio Riverwalk; you can see that type of venue would be successful, though obviously with a much different flavor than it would've had in this project.

I don't know if this has been brought up in regard to the hotels, but I've been wondering. In "The Art of the Walt Disney World Resort", there is a concept painting from the late 60's by Dorothea Redmond of a "Main Street Hotel" for the Magic Kingdom. Obviously, that never happened. This idea of either having a hotel inside the park or at the entrance to a park had been kicked around for a long time, but always set aside. What was it that finally got a hotel like the Disneyland Hotel in Paris built?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I truly miss the "Adventure through Inner Space" ride. It was one of my favorites as a kid. In seventh grade I made a model of one scene from the ride inside of a shadow box using blue Styrofoam balls and a pulsing nucleus. I had recorded my own voice and doing the narration and looping it so it played from a tape recorder inside of this cardboard box with a viewing window so it would be dark when you look inside. Yes, I was one obsessed junior high school student. I think I did get a good grade on it though. For those of you who never saw the attraction, here are some highlights you can check out.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I don't know if this has been brought up in regard to the hotels, but I've been wondering. In "The Art of the Walt Disney World Resort", there is a concept painting from the late 60's by Dorothea Redmond of a "Main Street Hotel" for the Magic Kingdom. Obviously, that never happened. This idea of either having a hotel inside the park or at the entrance to a park had been kicked around for a long time, but always set aside. What was it that finally got a hotel like the Disneyland Hotel in Paris built?

Not really. At the time I was not aware of that artwork. I do know that at Walt Disney World the building that housed the Walt Disney Story in Town Square was based on an actual hotel in New York called the United States Hotel. The running title of the WDW building was the "Main Street Hotel". Not a real hotel, but like the "Opera House" does not have Operas at Disneyland, this could've been the Artwork that belonged in the "Main Street Hotel" building of Walt Disney World.

The Disneyland Paris solution was more evolutionary. We had first put a giant roof over all of the ticket booths so people wouldn't have to wait in the rain. The roof design was very much derived from the Del Coronado Hotel in San Diego. When the bill came in for the roof proposal it was really high, so in order to save the concept I suggested putting a few Hotel suites up there. That idea later evolved into the mega-hotel that we have today.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

One wonders with rumblings about a redo of that area...

Start writing letters to John Lasseter, I'm sure he'd vote for something like that!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

While were at it, Saratoga Springs was also the inspiration for the porches of the Emporium.The Grand Union hotel is pictured here. There is a lot of simplification and scaling down that goes on but I think you can see where the inspiration came from.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Not really. At the time I was not aware of that artwork. I do know that at Walt Disney World the building that housed the Walt Disney Story in Town Square was based on an actual hotel in New York called the United States Hotel. The running title of the WDW building was the "Main Street Hotel". Not a real hotel, but like the "Opera House" does not have Operas at Disneyland, this could've been the Artwork that belonged in the "Main Street Hotel" building of Walt Disney World.

The Disneyland Paris solution was more evolutionary. We had first put a giant roof over all of the ticket booths so people wouldn't have to wait in the rain. The roof design was very much derived from the Del Coronado Hotel in San Diego. When the bill came in for the roof proposal it was really high, so in order to save the concept I suggested putting a few Hotel suites up there. That idea later evolved into the mega-hotel that we have today.

View attachment 28356

The caption identifies it as a luxury Victorian hotel (if we can trust them). It's not the best size, but...

Borrowed from disneyandmore

It's funny that the Paris hotel ended up in the same "place", but started in a completely unrelated and functional way.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Here is a painting Dan Goozee did for Tony, where we designed a New Orleans Square for outside of DLP as an Entertainment District. We had also proposed an "underground kind" of idea with Bayous, etc. I did a cross section view of it that is out there on the net someplace. This would have been Jean Laffite on crack.

View attachment 28355

Wow. That would have been something.

Disney has the talent and experience to build a themed dining/shopping/entertainment district, but they really haven't put their eggs in this basket. Downtown Disney at DLR is such a wasted opportunity, they fill it with outside vendors and it is like dozens of outside malls all across the country.

Surely, Downtown Disney could be themed, and have many of the same vendors if they wanted. What about a shopping center with a rural/country fair type theme, where everything looks authentic to a time period decades past. Sort of like a cross between a rural side of Main Street and the Disney film Pollyana. I know that the Grand Californian is supposed to be high end, so they feel they need a high endish looking shopping district, but the folks who come to DLR are already jonesing for a themed experience.

Main Street is great, but I hope they hurry up and build that rural alley . . . I actually enjoyed the Christmas decorations on BVS more than Main Street as BVS was able to capture a simple heart warming holiday feeling, whereas Main Street with the massive tree and hoopla over the candlelight processional has lost some of its charm as it has an almost garrish feel to it.

 

[Gonzo79]

Thank you Eddie for posting these pictures of Saratoga Springs.I live about an hour from there and had no idea some of their archictecture inspired some of Main Street. Actually I did read somewhere that the Main Street train station was modeled after the one in Saratoga Springs.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thank you Eddie for posting these pictures of Saratoga Springs.I live about an hour from there and had no idea some of their archictecture inspired some of Main Street. Actually I did read somewhere that the Main Street train station was modeled after the one in Saratoga Springs.

Think of all the money you'll save not going to Main Street!

 

[Californian Elitist]

Wow. That would have been something.

Disney has the talent and experience to build a themed dining/shopping/entertainment district, but they really haven't put their eggs in this basket. Downtown Disney at DLR is such a wasted opportunity, they fill it with outside vendors and it is like dozens of outside malls all across the country.

Surely, Downtown Disney could be themed, and have many of the same vendors if they wanted. What about a shopping center with a rural/country fair type theme, where everything looks authentic to a time period decades past. Sort of like a cross between a rural side of Main Street and the Disney film Pollyana. I know that the Grand Californian is supposed to be high end, so they feel they need a high endish looking shopping district, but the folks who come to DLR are already jonesing for a themed experience.

Downtown Disney is fine the way it is. I'm sure almost no one's going to be looking for a themed experience at a shopping and dining outlet OUTSIDE the parks.

 

[flynnibus]

Downtown Disney is fine the way it is. I'm sure almost no one's going to be looking for a themed experience at a shopping and dining outlet OUTSIDE the parks.

Tell that to rainforest cafe , etc

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The thing that bothers me about Rainforest is that it succeeds.

 

[flynnibus]

The thing that bothers me about Rainforest is that it succeeds.

more disturbing to me is that Disney allowed them to be at the gate of DAK... What does that say about your own ambitions inside the park? I mean its not like there is a viable retail presence outside the DAK gates... its a remote island in the WDW property