Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[ChrisFL]

While discussing Space Mountain music, I often thought the original Paris Space Mountain soundtrack sounded a LOT like E.T.'s soundtrack, (after I watched the video of the "making of" the attraction)

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The cool thing about the Batman TV soundtrack is that it had the sound effects that you could drive to, the ignition sounds, the rocket turbine sounds, and burnouts and tires screeching. It was really fun to pop the clutch and burn out of WDI with that track going and Adam West yelling "To the Batmobile".

 

[Omnispace]

That's a great story about Space Mountain! I wish I would have had the chance to ride that version -- it must have been a blast!!

I do think they have done an excellent job with the current version -- they kept enough of the original design sense of the ride and freshened it in just the right ways to bring it up to date -- and the soundtrack works well. Was there ever discussion to add more design elements alongside the track for the trains to pass by? I can imagine some cool doppler effects could be added to the soundtrack as the trains pass by comets or twinkly-star stuff.

btw - Starrider was an awesome song! "Speed increasing, all control is in the hands of those who know..."

 

[Patricia Melton]

Fun was much easier to have back then....I liked the "Swiss Warbler" bird calls.

Can there be an Eddie Sotto's Take, Part III please!

That would be a great Christmas present for everyone!

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Can there be an Eddie Sotto's Take, Part III please!

That would be a great Christmas present for everyone!

We don't have to worry about that until this thread gets to around 5,000 replies. That may have been a restriction of the old board software or it just may be message board physics.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The funny thing I learned about Mr. Dale is that he can't read music, he plays by ear. Extraordinary musical talent. He also told me that he taught Jimi Hendrix how to play. If you read his wiki, you'll learn how he reinvented Amps, strings and pretty much started shredding on the guitar. I saw him play a month or so ago in Malibu and he is still awesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Dale

Watch this video and you will get why I had to have him play on Space Mountain. True definition of a Rockstar and music legend. He deserved to be on the ride. If only the speakers were bigger on the trains! that was his reaction after riding. He wanted it all much louder and with more bass. We just could not get there with the existing situation.



His energy is so powerful and the way he slides and riffs takes you right on the curves of the ride. Try driving to his music and you'll get a ticket. We did not have a big budget, so I promised him he could play on top of the Matterhorn if he would make a modest deal with us and he accepted. They would not let me put him up there opening night, so he played a concert from the top of Space Mountain. He was the hit of the Tomorrowland 86 opening party.

 

[Rasvar]

They could. If they made them too appealing, kids that could walk would ask for them. We discussed this earlier, but the number of strollers in the park compared to pictures in the old days has skyrocketed. Just storing them outside the Jungle Cruise and Nemo Subs is a nightmare.

Not to mention strollers have grown to be small SUV or urban assault vehicles. They have morphed from being carriers for small children to being mobile lockers. The stroller issue at DL seems more enhanced due to the smaller walking areas. My last trip to Epcot, I actually saw a quad stroller. I think they could have even put a whole set of luggage on that thing. It seems like stroller use has gone up as in park transportation has gone down. That may be more of the fact that some of the transportation has been reduced because of more crowded conditions. However, there was something about being able to rest on the double-decker buses around World Showcase or when you had more Friendships operating in the lagoon that made it less taxing to get around when tired. I use to love closing an evening in the Magic Kingdom with a night time trolly ride or the Omnibus. Those little things added a lot for me.

 

[Rasvar]

We also had a music video running in the queue that was NASA footage depicting the history of the space race, set to Dale's "Ghost Riders in the Sky". It was part of an "intergalactic channel surfing" program running in the queue.

I have to admit that video was the one I always wanted to see when I was in the queue. I actually got disappointed when the line was too short for me to see it. But, I was also one of the kids who loved to listen to the recorded background chatter that you would hear in the back of the queue area too. I always appreciated the smaller elements like this. That is what always separated some of the roller coasters at Disney from Six Flags. The new interactive queues just don't seem to register for me as much. They seem to act more as a distraction from the time you are spending in the queue instead of working to build the attraction. I will say I have not seen the queue in the New Fantasyland Little Mermaid. For a ride like Dumbo, I think what they have tried makes sense. But, I don't want to see an interactive queue for ToT or Star Wars. Not really a fan of the standby game in Space Mountain. Those queues work better in building a story and entertaining. I think the interactive area of Haunted Mansion is an example where a story opportunity was lost in favor of cheap distraction from time. Big Thunder Mountain is an under utilized queue in this manner. I've always wondered why there wasn't some kind of back story embedded within this area.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

If only the speakers were bigger on the trains! that was his reaction after riding. He wanted it all much louder and with more bass. We just could not get there with the existing situation.

Was the size of the speakers debated a lot during the refurb? The popular notion with fans now is that the track couldn't handle the extra weight from the sound system, leading eventually to the 2 1/2 year closure. Do you think it was the sound system or was it really the Pressler-era maintenance?

We did not have a big budget, so I promised him he could play on top of the Matterhorn if he would make a modest deal with us and he accepted. They would not let me put him up there opening night, so he played a concert from the top of Space Mountain. He was the hit of the Tomorrowland 86 opening party.

I loved this story. So many of your stories I haven't seen circulated elsewhere online.

 

[dreamscometrue]

Hi Eddie

As I mentioned in another post, I very much enjoy reading this thread and appreciate your taking the time to discuss topics on here. I read this often. Having said that, I have not actually read every post on every page of the 2 threads, so I apologize in advance if you've discussed the following in an earlier post.

Could you please briefly explain the ride design process at Disney, from start to finish. I understand that you are not there now, and can only perhaps speculate on recent attractions, but this post was motivated by some of the banter I've read online about the construction of the 'Little Mermaid' attractions. Specifically, several people who post on this board have said that the ending seems abrupt, perhaps they ran out of money, they were cheap from the outset and decided on a few good scenes and a few poor ones, etc. Lately, people have had opinions about the ride not being dark enough and other perceived show lighting issues. So...how would it have been designed? Wouldn't all models have been done far in advance and there would be no shortfall of money leading to the 'ending' we have? Isn't all of this planned well in advance, and what are your thoughts on the finished attraction? Also, wouldn't the show lighting people know how to properly light an attraction? Are there reasons of which guests might not be aware for the lighting levels being what they are (which some consider overly illuminated)?

Thanks in advance for your insight and information.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Here's something interesting about the brain and relates to our recent discussion.
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/en/162322

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Today we lost an Imagineer that not many of you may be familiar with. His name is Roger Broggie Jr. His father Roger Sr. was responsible for building the Steam Trains for the Parks.

Sad, sad news. There have been a lot of Broggies who worked for the company. I rode with a couple of them in the Lilly a couple years ago.

When I was very young and I used to walk down Main Street looking up at the second-story windows I'd imagine what was going on up there and who was living there. It was kind of a fantasy that someday you would go into those second-story spaces and find something that fully met your expectation.

I've noticed they also pipe in conversation around NOS. One second-story area that will become a guest area in the near future is the space above the French Market, they are expanding Club 33 to this area, or so I've been told. Online rumors are that it will be a jazz club, with a stage for presentations instead of using the main Club 33 dining room I guess.

I kinda feel that the second story of BVS is underutilized, though obviously not much happens in terms of guest experience on the second story of Main Street, I don't see why something couldn't have been done on BVS (outside of the Carthay), such as a second story for the Pig Cafe, anything to kill the horrible acoustics!

Here's something interesting about the brain and relates to our recent discussion.
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/en/162322

I'm not sure where the psychologists got their "data", for this book. Was it personal experience with patients, research subjects? There are also some inconsistencies in the brief description—while they insist that brain anatomy hasn't changed, they allude to some new circuits and older circuits which have been lost. Without literally using brain slices, and special stains, and doing a ton of research, this is just assumption on these psychologists' part. Brain circuity changes on a daily basis, but I suppose they are inferring behavioral changes to presumably gross changes in connectivity. Maybe they did special scans, like PET scans, which look at areas of a brain being utilized.

I don't think the article reveals as massive a change in the way people think as the authors would hope (and no doubt sensationalism helps sell books). Humans have had to cope with a lot over the past centuries, quite possibly more demanding than video games, such as the switch from an agrarian society to an urban one for many, widespread literacy and expanding eductional opportunities . . . if there is one constant it is that the human brain is capable of adapting to a wide range of new circumstances.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Specifically, several people who post on this board have said that the ending seems abrupt, perhaps they ran out of money, they were cheap from the outset and decided on a few good scenes and a few poor ones, etc.

I think they used the obvious scenes, such as the "Under the Sea" and the "Kiss the Girl" scene which were in Tony Baxter's CGI Mermaid Ride. I don't know about what Eddie thinks, but I think that certainly the final scenes don't have as much eye candy and enchantment as other classic Disney rides, and I think this is due to a lack of $$ for the necessary details.

So...how would it have been designed? Wouldn't all models have been done far in advance and there would be no shortfall of money leading to the 'ending' we have?

Not sure what Eddie thinks, but Mermaid was constrained for space in DCA. The final scenes you are up against a wall and the clam shell is on a straight path back to the unload area, so these might have been constrains in that the clamshell didn't have the space to go through a large hyper-detailed area.

TDO had the blessing of space in Orlando . . . but they just copied Mermaid without thinking about building a bigger, or better designed, showbuilding.

Also, wouldn't the show lighting people know how to properly light an attraction? Are there reasons of which guests might not be aware for the lighting levels being what they are (which some consider overly illuminated)?

Mermaid doesn't use "dark light", i.e. UV light like other classic Fantasyland dark rides (well, maybe a little around Ursula), though Pooh also uses "white light", Pooh, IMHO, seems to pull it off due to the multiple immersive scenes and awesome lighting in the Tokyo version of the ride. Mermaid's lights are visible and cast odd shadows from a great distance above, and look like a furniture display room, IMHO. I love Small World, but it does use white light, though they take pains to paint the ceiling black, and there is more to look at than can be seen on one trip through the attraction. Would Small World be a dud if it opened today? I would say no, given the scope of the ride.

Supposedly, Lasseter was very angry with WDI wanting to cut the budget to Carsland and told some WDI exec that if he was OK with standing outside of the ride they were working on (RSR?) and telling them what a big success it was because the budget was cut to a ludicrously low level then he was OK with the cuts.

Obviously, no such cuts were made.

I think Lasseter was incensed about Mermaid and lack of $. Supposedly about $100 million for both Mermaids, east and west, and I don't know if that counts the rock work.

Mermaid has a couple of high points, IMHO, Ursula and Under the Sea Ariel . . . but the filler is a bit lacking and I don't feel like it is a story, per se, but just an excuse to highlight some of the big musical moments. I think some of the magic is lost when they use screens for a couple scenes (Ariel getting her human legs and Ariel getting her voice back, in addition to the swimming Ariel) . . . kinda don't want to see screens in a Fantasyland ride. Space Mountain would be ok and even expected. Also . . . an Ursula cutout? Peter Pan still has little details I somehow missed over the past decades of enjoying this attraction. With Mermaid, everything can be seen and it is less of a visual scavenger hunt.

Plus, relating to the video game generation . . . Peter Pan and Toad present scenes pretty quickly to the guests, on Mermaid there is way too much time staring at rockwork on the ride while the clamshells creep along at a glacial pace. Works on HM where you can't see much due to the darkness and the omnimovers build anticipation, but not as much on Mermaid, IMHO.

What I remember most about the Adventure Thru Inner Space was seeing the big snowflakes and a lot of waiting for the next scene. Yeah, sorry to say, but Mermaid has the same boring moments.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Remember how the Upjohn Pharmacy on Main Street gave away samples? Imagine today's society drowning in prescription drugs. Main Street should bring it back with a real Doctor on duty that can quickly prescribe Valium and Xanax and other legal drugs to problem guests and their kids. Maybe a time release patch with the sponsor's name. "There's a great big beauti-pill tomorrow".

Wasn't Dupont's old motto "Better living through chemistry"?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Wasn't Dupont's old motto "Better living through chemistry"?

Not sure but....I always loved the ominous "hand" over your head in this display at Disneyland. World domination through chemistry, to serve man of course...I love how the figures rise from their test tubes in the "Chemitron. the postcard caption reads..

"In the ceiling above the “Chemitron” spreads the arm of chemistry which transforms these eight basic materials into hundreds of chemicals and thousands of products we use and enjoy. In the hand is a ball of fire, symbol of the complex processes necessary for this transformation. Through the arm the arteries of industry the chemicals are formed into products that affect our everyday lives.”

The "genie" is out of the bottle folks!

The NYWF of 1939 had similar ominous imagery. The Hall of Pharmacy. Ex-Lax was a sponsor BTW.

 

[Omnispace]

What I remember most about the Adventure Thru Inner Space was seeing the big snowflakes and a lot of waiting for the next scene. Yeah, sorry to say, but Mermaid has the same boring moments.

I'm not sure when you went on Adventure Thru Inner Space but the last time I was able to ride it (December 1984) the entire scene where you passed the crystalline structures of the ice was missing -- basically in darkness -- so perhaps that's what you remember. By this time the show was in such a sad state that it was heartbreaking. Past that point there was an intentional short dark segment ( "impenetrable darkness" mentioned in the narration) just before you happen upon the "fuzzy molecules" suspended in the endless mirror room. Other than that the ride was properly lighted, at least when it was fresh.

I would have given anything to explore around in there. Though I know much of it was done with projections onto walls and scrims, the script and pacing of the show with the omnimover made it work. Plus when ATIS opened, much of what you saw had never been done in quite the same way before. It was truly a unique effort.

 

[Omnispace]

The final scenes you are up against a wall and the clam shell is on a straight path back to the unload area, so these might have been constrains in that the clamshell didn't have the space to go through a large hyper-detailed area.

It sure seems like they ran out of space, but if you are designing from scratch the very best ride you can why would you allow that to happen? I recall seeing images of the earlier layout attempts for the Mermaid attraction that had a more serpentine return to the unload area so they were at one time considering a more immersive experience for that part of the show. Obviously at some point priorities were made that forced it to be the way that it is whether it was the decision to give more space to the Beneath The Sea scene or perhaps they felt they could have larger closing scenes with the current layout. It's a departure from the more immersive approach taken for the first 2/3 of the ride so perhaps that's why it stands out?

 

[flynnibus]

Wdi shared previous iterations of the ride's design in the blue sky celler

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm gonna try to answer the myriad of questions in the earlier post about ride design, but restrict it to addressing the Little Mermaid show.

It may shock you, but I think there was plenty of money and room to tell that story and make a great ride. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride told it's "story" (or exploited the parts that were fun) in and with less, and some would argue that it did a better job. Mermaid was done on a grand scale and using different medium (dimensional figures and white light mostly), so they changed their own "rules" and in doing so had different challenges and expectations from the guest. Making magic can be harder to do as you have to hide everything. I'm not saying it should have been a black light ride either, but they took on a tough medium. TDL Pooh was a mixture of both and was bookended by white light with black light for the finale.'

Omnimovers also change the rules as you have a different "pace" to deal with. A Toad vehicle or a Small World boat have theirs. Some vehicles have ability to orient or point you at the action. Omnimovers can do that do a degree, the single car does it in a serpentine manner, like Toad or Alice. Boats tend to be less so. Ride vehicles do mean alot and set the tone for how you experience the adventure. They can either enhance or detract the from the show. Vehicles that change speed and are less predictable can be a good tool in changing the mood. The "Hunny Pots" in TDL Pooh, for example reacted in each scene by either "jumping" with Tigger, "blowing" in the blustery day by spinning and caroming, or "exploding" backwards to escape the black light "dream" and the Woozles into the white light real world. Mermaid has many big spectacles that you ride through too, but some say that overall it lacks "magic". I doubt that small kids feel that way.

The design process includes storyboards and rough models, and then architecture and further design development, leading to a finished model from a preliminary concept and budget.Once the budgets are approved and enough is known about the true cost of the production, the higher-ups at the corporate level approve capitalizing the cost of your show. None of this happens without the blessing of the marketing department, the operations department, and a whole host of Chiefs that are involved along the way.

The idea for a new attraction can come from many different directions. It can be a direct request that is somewhat generic, like for a thrill attraction or for a particular franchise. This might come from the marketing department or from the studio. There may be a particular operational reason to change out an attraction and that might generate the request for creative time to be spent. Less often is when someone just suggests something out of the blue without a particular need. I was fortunate enough to get permission to run my own small studio within Imagineering (Concept Development Studio) that would operate on a particular budget and get to do just that, suggest things that were "beyond the berm" so to speak. Sometimes they would involve new technologies that the folks over at the research and development department were working on but did not have an application in the parks. This was always exciting. We would only have enough money to take a particular idea up to the point of a modest presentation. If the executive in charge of that park, or perhaps Marty Sklar himself like the idea we would get approval to add more budget and put together a formal proposal. Sometimes we went directly to the operations folks themselves. So I guess what I am saying is, that there is no one path to getting an attraction approved or developed. Typically today, these kinds of initiatives are requested and funded because it is expensive to develop ideas. In the case of the little mermaid I'm not quite sure what the process was or how it got funded. I hope that is helpful in giving you a sense of the many ways that things might happen. Now back to the Mermaid show.


It looked pretty lavish to me, especially the massive building it is housed in. I'd guess that different crews worked on Mermaid in DCA and did not borrow that much from Tony. they like to replicate the shows scene for scene in WDW as it costs less. From what I hear, it is considered a big success at WDI and within the company.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Mermaid has many big spectacles that you ride through too, but some say that overall it lacks "magic". I doubt that small kids feel that way.

. . .

From what I hear, it is considered a big success at WDI and within the company.

I just rode Mermaid this month at DLR with a five year old Ariel fan in tow. (I had just slogged through another character meal at Ariel's Grotto for what is probably the sixth time). Mermaid was a 5 minute wait . . . there was nobody riding it (well maybe 15 folks in line), and yet the stand-by line for RSR wrapped around Carthay.

We rode it once, asked our young princess if she wanted to ride it again as there was no wait, the answer was no. The line for the ride was different from say, the line for Peter Pan, Small World . . . folks just weren't smiling. The CM doesn't even say, "enjoy your trip under the sea!" anymore, at least not when I rode it recently.

It's hard to pin-down why Mermaid doesn't work for us, but I think part of it is the massive size of the show building, the large and relatively close animatronics, and the "phoned in" scenes.

I have a hard time believing that the attraction is viewed as a big success, at least at DCA, as while it succeeds in providing a walk-on attraction in a land with few attractions, it's a diversion, not a primary draw for DCA, and doesn't seem to foster re-rideability much.

Without a refresh and re-do of the final scenes, and maybe even with that, I think Mermaid will eventually be gutted at DCA decades from now to put in something more fun, like maybe a Mermaid version of Crush's coaster.