Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

In the past, we have discussed skeuomorphism, and I am getting a little tired of it in Apple's latest works. The newly released Podcasts apps features an animated tape deck when one looks at the play options. It just seems so unnecessary to waist time and resources creating an animated tape deck that even shows the tape appropriately moving from reel to reel. For a company that is so willing to just completely ditch a technology it considers old, seeing skeuomorphism being more and more part of the design philosophy just seems odd. What's next, could I get all of the joy of an Apple II's look with my next iMac?

This video, a recent TED talk, features two items discussed in the past, the Theme Building at LAX and the iPhone.



Even if the world is timeless, what happens when you want to add something related to the new big franchise? Most parks are limited in their available space. It is not going to fit what exists. Are we going to see bigger projects spread further apart? Adding an attraction to a generic land is one thing, having to tear out and replace a land is an even bigger proposition. Then what happens when one of these big lands just completely bombs?

They are afraid of the "bomb" aspect especially since they put Carsland to remedy an entire park that bombed! So many times attractions and lands are designed and then the movie they are based on flops like Tron or Atlantis. Your work just goes into another drawer. Cars is a runaway hit and timeless in that the merchandise is huge and cars in general like dinosaurs is a generic boy interest. So it kinda works. It will drop off over time, sure, but it will be a crowd pleaser for a long time.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

There have been proposals in part for most all of the elements you propose in attraction form, including a Villain's park, I think it included a Castle. In fact, the Castle from (Evil Queen) Snow White is the facade for the ride at DL now, as she peers out the window. So you are thinking like a true Imagineer!

Thanks for that info, I love the Snow White Ride in DL, especially the facade lighting and dungeon scenes, didn't know that the outside was directly taken from the film, but there are a lot of little details that reference the film. I'll have to watch the film again. If they ever move Snow White (perhaps to make it into an e-ticket Fantasyland dark ride), I hope they build a little evil castle on a hill for the facade.

Given the popularity of Potterland, I would think that a Disney-built land which features features the "dark magic" of some of the more memorable characters such as the queen from Snow White, Maleficient, would be popular, perhaps with rides in a medievalish gothic type village, such as with the feel of the animated feature "Sword in the Stone." I guess that would be Villain's Park Fantasyland. . . slightly more sinister looking, with scraggly trees and rides featuring the villains, with facades that look rundown (or at least infused with wickedness) and foreboding. I love how the "wickedness" of Snow White's Queen seeps out into the facade, much different that the facades for Mr. Toad or Peter Pan.

I just saw Brave and will very disappointed if the movie, along with the "woodcarver"/ex-witch, is not made into a ride at some point.

 

[flynnibus]

@lazyboy97o you can always expand the previously known universe.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Thanks for that info, I love the Snow White Ride in DL, especially the facade lighting and dungeon scenes, didn't know that the outside was directly taken from the film, but there are a lot of little details that reference the film. I'll have to watch the film again. If they ever move Snow White (perhaps to make it into an e-ticket Fantasyland dark ride), I hope they build a little evil castle on a hill for the facade.

Given the popularity of Potterland, I would think that a Disney-built land which features features the "dark magic" of some of the more memorable characters such as the queen from Snow White, Maleficient, would be popular, perhaps with rides in a medievalish gothic type village, such as with the feel of the animated feature "Sword in the Stone." I guess that would be Villain's Park Fantasyland. . . slightly more sinister looking, with scraggly trees and rides featuring the villains, with facades that look rundown (or at least infused with wickedness) and foreboding. I love how the "wickedness" of Snow White's Queen seeps out into the facade, much different that the facades for Mr. Toad or Peter Pan.

I just saw Brave and will very disappointed if the movie, along with the "woodcarver"/ex-witch, is not made into a ride at some point.

The DL Snow White Castle is an abstraction from the movie, but it does have the Queen in the window and lots of Skulls as Corbels. Our kids were actually worried when she opened the drape and shied away.

My personal thing is to avoid things that are occult in nature, but that's because I have Christian upbringing. There has always been lots of interest in Villains because they add drama and are interesting, but the one thing to keep in mind that in Fantasyland there are lots of really small children who have an instinctive sense of threat. Sudden loud noise, darkness, stuff like that ruins their little day and irritates the parents as they have to sweet talk them off of their tiny ledges. The Nemo Subs has a moment like that and being trapped in that Sub with a bunch of balling toddlers is murder! Their parents are spending a fortune to take them to the park and if things end up getting too threatening or spooky all the time they tend to cower and then freak out.

We learned this on Pooh and we had to be careful to make it engaging enough for Adults but somehow not too threatening for kids.You need to have some of that to tell the story of make the ride interesting for the majority. If the majority is parents with really small kids then it has to be Small world level of friendly and happy because that's what works. Snow White's "Scary" Adventures (or even Hell in Toad) has historically had this issue. Even with "scary" in the title, parents still bring out screaming toddlers. I'm not saying you can't do some spooky stuff or more Villain stuff, but as a designer, you want to be somewhat sensitive to the audience.

 

[jt04]

The DL Snow White Castle is an abstraction from the movie, but it does have the Queen in the window and lots of Skulls as Corbels. Our kids were actually worried when she opened the drape and shied away.

My personal thing is to avoid things that are occult in nature, but that's because I have Christian upbringing. There has always been lots of interest in Villains because they add drama and are interesting, but the one thing to keep in mind that in Fantasyland there are lots of really small children who have an instinctive sense of threat. Sudden loud noise, darkness, stuff like that ruins their little day and irritates the parents as they have to sweet talk them off of their tiny ledges. The Nemo Subs has a moment like that and being trapped in that Sub with a bunch of balling toddlers is murder! Their parents are spending a fortune to take them to the park and if things end up getting too threatening or spooky all the time they tend to cower and then freak out.

We learned this on Pooh and we had to be careful to make it engaging enough for Adults but somehow not too threatening for kids.You need to have some of that to tell the story of make the ride interesting for the majority. If the majority is parents with really small kids then it has to be Small world level of friendly and happy because that's what works. Snow White's "Scary" Adventures (or even Hell in Toad) has historically had this issue. Even with "scary" in the title, parents still bring out screaming toddlers. I'm not saying you can't do some spooky stuff or more Villain stuff, but as a designer, you want to be somewhat sensitive to the audience.

Good luck getting that across to some around here. They won't be happy until Fire Mountain looms over Fantasyland or some looping death defying mega coaster ride replaces the castle.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Good luck getting that across to some around here. They won't be happy until Fire Mountain looms over Fantasyland or some looping death defying mega coaster ride replaces the castle.

Until we had children ourselves it was easy to discount the impact of what you are doing in those scarier areas. Disney actually wins with families because BTM and other attractions are not the most death defying. I was surprised to hear from a senior operations director that Space Mountain only gets 20 percent of the attendance.
Walt mixed strong emotions into the films and Pinocchio had it's fright and so did Snow White. When you are immersed fully in a ride I suspect those feelings are even more real and potentially intense. I'm not sure you want to shy away from them entirely, but you need to be aware how it entertains or can scar the younger target audience.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

So. it was just weird, that's all. I noticed that DLP sells Beer in...Cans. I just had to buy one and drink it walking around Fantasyland just for the experience of doing it. I got mine at the adorable Old Mill. Who knew they were grinding hops? First off, the beer tasted like a Coors, but the whole idea of chugging it while waiting for Casey Jr. was kind of a mind meld of a Ball Game and Pre School. I think it's hard to retain the fantasy of being a kid again, when you are drinking a beer. Maybe that was my subconscious issue. It reinforced that I was a grown up and did not allow me to recall the feelings I had for those dark rides as a child. Dolewhip or the other old school foods reinforce those happy times. That frothy bitterness from an aluminum can is associated with other memories, it separated me from my inner kid and took me to my later years, at least I think that's what it was. I reminded me that I was just a dad, the filthy County Fair, or of Baseball. Yesterday I had a cup of draft beer in DCA at Paradise Pier and somehow the Carny environs matched to the point where it did not matter. I had a Cocktail at the Carthay Circle Restaurant, no big deal, it looked like a bar, not a cottage with dwarves. Why was it ok in one place and not another? No earlier memories to tread on as there was nothing in my childhood to defile? Maybe. But a can of brewski in Fantasyland felt so out of place to me. Is the "Sword in the Stone" is a two drink minimum? The same Container you can buy at the the corner market made it entirely cheesy. I did not do it, but I imagined asking Snow White to hold my beer while I dug for my autograph pen. The Pabst Princess. I know this all sounds really prudish, but beer cans in the MK just bugged me more than I thought it would.

Sorry for the blurry picture, I was shuddering at the sight of it. I know Europe is not the same as USA, but how about a plastic cup?

 

[ChrisFL]

Until we had children ourselves it was easy to discount the impact of what you are doing in those scarier areas. Disney actually wins with families because BTM and other attractions are not the most death defying. I was surprised to hear from a senior operations director that Space Mountain only gets 20 percent of the attendance.

We aren't even talking about the scariest Magic Kingdom ride to date....Alien Encounter. I can fully understand why they closed it, even for adults it was scary, and IMO, something that never fit into the Disneyland style parks. That's what Hollywood Studios is for, but I know the imagineers were dealing with a highly specialed location. There's VERY few things that "fit" into the same chambers of Mission to Mars. I really wish I knew what else they had planned for it, post-Stitch. I know somewhere in the vaults of WDI there's concepts...

 

[Omnimover]

We aren't even talking about the scariest Magic Kingdom ride to date....Alien Encounter. I can fully understand why they closed it, even for adults it was scary, and IMO, something that never fit into the Disneyland style parks. That's what Hollywood Studios is for, but I know the imagineers were dealing with a highly specialed location. There's VERY few things that "fit" into the same chambers of Mission to Mars. I really wish I knew what else they had planned for it, post-Stitch. I know somewhere in the vaults of WDI there's concepts...

Indeed. As a late teen/young adult, I adored the attraction. Its intensity was a refreshing change of pace in the Magic Kingdom, but after every visit my companion and I would look at each other and say the same thing: "That is just too scary for kids." Not once did I experience the entire show without hearing a small child wailing somewhere in the theatre, and justifiably so when they are sprayed with warm water and lead to believe that it's a man's blood falling from the catwalk above. Admittedly, perhaps the replacement attraction went a bit too far the other way and is therefore reviled, but sometimes concessions have to be made.

Though I will say that the robot arm cannons that target Stitch and the audience are exceptional. They feel very, very real in their movements; I believe them. Not sure exactly why.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The DL Snow White Castle is an abstraction from the movie, but it does have the Queen in the window and lots of Skulls as Corbels. Our kids were actually worried when she opened the drape and shied away.

My personal thing is to avoid things that are occult in nature, but that's because I have Christian upbringing. There has always been lots of interest in Villains because they add drama and are interesting, but the one thing to keep in mind that in Fantasyland there are lots of really small children who have an instinctive sense of threat.

Excellent points. I have also seen little kids get afraid of the queen in the window, most of the time they keep their eyes glued on the window after the curtain closes as they get afraid that the queen is watching them.

My nephew's first ride was Mr. Toad in DL, he freaked out in the hell scene. LOL. Toad is ok as it sorta teaches a moral, but it does scare little kids.

I wouldn't want a 'Villain's Fantasyland' to promote pagan or wicca or goth culture, but rather to feel more "enchanted" than pure fantasy. I could see though how a whole land focusing on the explicit "magic" of Villains might be a magnet for occult fans, and irk others.

I guess I'd want it to have the feel of Mickey Not so Scary halloween party, which kids seem to do "ok" with. MNSSHP sort of humanizes the villains, which apparently is what the Maleficent movie will do, maybe morals-wise this isn't a too good idea, after all, the witch in Snow White did try to poison Snow White . . .

I can see why Disney might have abandoned a whole "Villains Park", the villains are pretty well represented in rides in Disneyland anyway, where marauding Pirates have their own E-Ticket . . .

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

We learned this on Pooh and we had to be careful to make it engaging enough for Adults but somehow not too threatening for kids.You need to have some of that to tell the story of make the ride interesting for the majority. If the majority is parents with really small kids then it has to be Small world level of friendly and happy because that's what works. Snow White's "Scary" Adventures (or even Hell in Toad) has historically had this issue. Even with "scary" in the title, parents still bring out screaming toddlers. I'm not saying you can't do some spooky stuff or more Villain stuff, but as a designer, you want to be somewhat sensitive to the audience.

I think that Little Mermaid also has this issue as the Ursula is just so big . . . and so close.

I think that teenagers would like a land, or sub-land, that had a spooky feel to it, maybe this could be achieved mostly with special effects and lighting at night. Such that at night eery light shines on twisted trees, evil red eye lights blink on and off . . . I wonder if Imagineers ever thought about building a two-track ride, (like the former Mr. Toad), except have one version a scary one, and the other more age appropriate for toddlers and small children.

The whole family could experience a tame queue together, then at the load station choose "Scary" or "Non-Scary", and then meet up at the exit at relatively the same time. When I was a teenager and wanted to ride haunted mansion, I had to do it with my dad as my mom didn't like it and my younger sibs were too young. Maybe with two versions of a popular ride, "Scary" and "non-Scary" families wouldn't have to break into two groups as often as they do.

I think one of the reasons why Snow White closed in MK is because of the scare-factor and decades of complaints at Guest Relations. What if they had a non-scary track for Snow White, mostly with the Dwarfs and Snow White, and a scary track with the witch and made to look even spookier than what is in Disneyland? With clear signs, parents could choose . . . though this might defeat the purpose of a "family" attraction.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The Soapbox Ride I first worked on at Knott's was lame to look at, but got tons of re-rides because of it's competitive nature. Carsland has the same dynamic.

I read elsewhere that some guests in the RSR cars didn't even know that they were "racing" the car next to them. I liked the Autopia as a kid because you got to drive the car, which makes the circa-1957 Autopia more "interactive" than 2012-Radiator Spring Racers!

Seriously, if they take out the Autopia in Disneyland (the current rumor) a lot kids are going to miss out on a fun experience . . .

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

We learned this on Pooh and we had to be careful to make it engaging enough for Adults but somehow not too threatening for kids.You need to have some of that to tell the story of make the ride interesting for the majority.

Hats of to you if you designed the Pooh in MK! I really love that ride, especially the scene where you go through Owl's house and the wind is blowing and shaking it, takes me right back to those old Pooh shorts, that scene was the biggest emotional connection I've had with an attraction; I got goose-bumps that I was in Owl's house in that world. That was just pure Disney magic.

 

[flynnibus]

I think one of the reasons why Snow White closed in MK is because of the scare-factor and decades of complaints at Guest Relations. What if they had a non-scary track for Snow White, mostly with the Dwarfs and Snow White, and a scary track with the witch and made to look even spookier than what is in Disneyland? With clear signs, parents could choose . . . though this might defeat the purpose of a "family" attraction.

Or simply it was the last flat blacklight ride that isn't nearly as popular as other attractions. Think about it.. MK has now purged all the original FL style dark rides except for Peter Pan. Pooh is a lot more advanced than the old style rides.

Yet DL still manages with 5! such styled rides. Peter Pan, Alice, Snow White, Pinocchio, and Toad

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Or simply it was the last flat blacklight ride that isn't nearly as popular as other attractions. Think about it.. MK has now purged all the original FL style dark rides except for Peter Pan. Pooh is a lot more advanced than the old style rides.

Yet DL still manages with 5! such styled rides. Peter Pan, Alice, Snow White, Pinocchio, and Toad

Tony Baxter added some new effects to the Snow White in Disneyland, it often has a short wait, but a great choice if you want to just ride something in Fantasyland without waiting for Peter Pan.

No doubt the closing of Snow White was a decision making process that involved several factors:

1. TDO likes to close a ride when they open a new one as this keeps maintenance and other costs from growing too much, though it also has left Magic Kingdom with far fewer rides than Disneyland.

2. TDO was sort of charged with adding a ride to the FLE as guests want more than just highly themed restaurants, Mermaid, and princesses, so they went with the Seven Dwarfs coaster. Artistically, some might wonder why there are two Snow White rides both with dark ride scenes, (thought the Seven Dwarf Coaster sadly will have fewer dark scenes).

3. Snow White does still scare kids, for MK with a lot of foreigner visitors who aren't forewarned by "Snow White's Scary Adventures", this could have lead to upset kids and angry parents.

4. Snow White maybe wasn't as popular as it once was, but given that the ride probably hadn't been significantly updated for over thirty years, this was a factor, though on hot and busy days in MK, Snow White sure got riders. If FLE didn't happen, then they might have gone with a Fantasyland upgrade, simliar to the one Disneyland got in 1982. I agree that the flat-plywood props used in Snow White should have gone, but it would have been so much easier to replace this stuff with things that look good, or use the ride track for a Beauty and the Beast ride. Not every attraction needs to have 45 minute stand-by lines and Fast-Pass, you gotta have some solid D-Tickets which provide a nice little surprise in between the E-Tickets, IMHO. Snow White was still entertaining millions every year, if they updated the attraction it would provide much need ride capacity in Magic Kingdom.

Disneyland has a great Fantasyland as you've got a lot of neat little dark rides and other attractions in a cozy setting, Magic Kingdom is more sprawling, and while I like some of the FLE, such as the BOG restaurant, MK still lacks the intimacy and "magic" of Disneyland's Fantasyland.

Ariel's facade, which is really just rock-work around a big box, is kinda too imposing and "showy" for me. I think they should have hidden the show building behind a berm, and gone with a more humble entrance, such as utilizing Prince Eric's ship for the facade.

Also, not all of TDO's decision are necessarily good, Toad is more popular than Pooh in Disneyland, and will become even more so when the CG-Live action Toad movie is done by Disney.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I wonder if Imagineers ever thought about building a two-track ride, (like the former Mr. Toad), except have one version a scary one, and the other more age appropriate for toddlers and small children.

That was sort of the idea behinds Pirates of the Scareibbean. Normal attraction during the day, scary with the zombies from the first film at night. In a way, it is also sort of what we now have with Green - Less Intense Training and Orange - Intense Training at Mission: SPACE. Unfortunately, with how people tend not to read, I could see a lot of people going on the wrong side.

 

[ChrisFL]

I read elsewhere that some guests in the RSR cars didn't even know that they were "racing" the car next to them. I liked the Autopia as a kid because you got to drive the car, which makes the circa-1957 Autopia more "interactive" than 2012-Radiator Spring Racers!

Heck, I've seen people on Buzz Lightyear and MIB who "didn't know" you were supposed to shoot things.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I went on RS Racers twice today and it is a very fun ride. Our kids loved it and so did most every guest. Not too fast, great AA work, lots of show, but the real star is the environment itself. The nostalgia of the Route 66 theme translates into being the "Main Street USA" of our time. There is a mojo there when you are transported into a John Ford film. It's big and overwhelms you. It's pure Americana, but grittier.. Johnny Cash versus Dapper Dans, more Drive-Ins and Neon than Gingerbread and Gas Lamps. When you look at the guests walking down the street, they are relating to what they see and it's all in fun. Car culture in the ultimate slot car set. It's childlike at the same time. That to me is the biggest lesson. I know from my days at Knott's that "competition" between vehicles is something that will work, and they have done it very well and combined it with a very sophisticated show. The setting is the icing that makes it something only Disney could pull off. Guests sense that in a second and are responding.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I went on RS Racers twice today and it is a very fun ride. Our kids loved it and so did most every guest. Not too fast, great AA work, lots of show, but the real star is the environment itself.

Awesome, looks like Carsland will have great family appeal. They spared no expense to re-create Radiator Springs, even sending Imagineers down Route 66 though much of the area is taken from the film.

There's a rumor that Tony Baxter will be heading a major expansion in Disneyland, maybe in Frontierland and maybe based on the Lone Ranger, possibly a Western River Expedition ride, to expand guest capacity as DLR is sure getting more business with Carsland.

 

[ChrisFL]

I went on RS Racers twice today and it is a very fun ride. Our kids loved it and so did most every guest. Not too fast, great AA work, lots of show, but the real star is the environment itself. The nostalgia of the Route 66 theme translates into being the "Main Street USA" of our time. There is a mojo there when you are transported into a John Ford film. It's big and overwhelms you. It's pure Americana, but grittier.. Johnny Cash versus Dapper Dans, more Drive-Ins and Neon than Gingerbread and Gas Lamps. When you look at the guests walking down the street, they are relating to what they see and it's all in fun. Car culture in the ultimate slot car set. It's childlike at the same time. That to me is the biggest lesson. I know that competition is something that will work, and they have done it very well and at the highest level of quality. The setting is the icing that makes it something only Disney could pull off. Guests sense that in a second and are responding.

Great, I'm glad to hear your positive impressions of the place, since I'm still in Florida and haven't made it over there yet. (But I'm definitely planning for it!)