Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[lazyboy97o]

I think there may be some room to develop a ride vehicle chassis that has a softer, more side to side give in it to create a fishtailing type slide that a toboggan would have in a trench.

The swinging car system being developed for the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train seems like it could offer a basis for achieving this affect. It may require less swing or some rebanking, but the car would be able to sway back and forth as it rounded turns, just like one would expect from a free moving vehicle.

I also think that while maximum capacity was reduced, the actual capacity may have increased. While each bobsled could hold four people, if many were going out only holding two or three, that is less than the three are now always being filled due to the new single rider line. I am actually surprised that the change took so long to happen, as Space Mountain at the Magic Kingdom switched from the lap seating to single seats decades ago.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The swinging car system being developed for the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train seems like it could offer a basis for achieving this affect. It may require less swing or some rebanking, but the car would be able to sway back and forth as it rounded turns, just like one would expect from a free moving vehicle.

I also think that while maximum capacity was reduced, the actual capacity may have increased. While each bobsled could hold four people, if many were going out only holding two or three, that is less than the three are now always being filled due to the new single rider line. I am actually surprised that the change took so long to happen, as Space Mountain at the Magic Kingdom switched from the lap seating to single seats decades ago.

I think you could be right as the single rider phenom works well and eats those seats for breakfast. We all chose to do that on Racers at DCA as there time was so much shorter.

The whole notion of giving the chassis a "job" to do or modding it's suspension goes back to Indiana Jones where you get the road feel from the fixed chassis moving the body. No reason you could not do a very cool mod to the Bobsled to get more fun from it. The track would have to be able to accept the new shifting forces. The Dwarfs ride has the same premise as you point out. The challenge is packaging the hardware and keeping the effect simple and fluid.

I'd love a crack at the Matterhorn with a nice budget to really look at what could be done. Given today's computer control possibilities, you may be able to control more and smaller block zones so tightly that you could go back to single vehicles, but closer together. Add a switch that sends you through a third mystery track that you are randomly selected to experience, that takes you through melting caverns deep in the mountain (then rejoins the track system). How cool would it be to introduce the water earlier in the ride so you are careening through the melting snow, racing through cracking, dripping caves, dangling crystals, before you pop out and finally splash down?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The track would have to be able to accept the new shifting forces.

Therein lies the rub.

The 7DC track looks like it is massively reinforced to allow for the side to side motion, the RSR ride vehicles have something like north of 20 wheels underneath the track in various positions to keep the ride vehicle on the track, and that is because of speed, and unwanted side to side motion, and other unwanted movement, and the forces that accompany that.

What I remember from the old Matterhorn was the vertical dropping sensation, which probably was accented because of the loose seat-belt and the open bobsled. The new rider position with legs looped under the chair (if I got this description correctly), looks like it was introduced to prevent the upward/vertical movement of the rider independent of the ride vehicle. Remember the sad accident of the woman who "stood up" on the Mattehorn, they obviously want to keep riders firmly inside the vehicle. The old ride configuration definitely provided some thrills as you felt the bobsled almost drop out from under you.

Retrofitting the ride so that you've got a ride vehicle that moves indenpedent of the chasis to some extent would probably require reinforcing the track, and decreasing the banking angle as the ride vehicle would bank for you.

I think an improvement might be to build bobsleds with individual seats inclined backwards more, which if they all inclined at the same angle, you'd be able to the fit the same number, and you'd have more leg room. When the bobsled shoots down, and your momentum carries you forward, you might get a sensation of "lift" as not all of your weight would be on your tail-bone, but spread out over a larger area, and your feet and head would sort of go "airborne" for a couple seconds. But, then again, if you incline the seats back too much then people have trouble getting inside.

For some sections of the 7DC track, it looks like the rails vary with the parallel to the ground, introducing some "shaking" of the ride vehicle like in a mine. Basically, for example, the right rail dips, and the left rail stays parallel to the ground, and this introduces some "swinging" to the ride vehicle.

Similar style vehicle on Matterhorn probably couldn't have such a rail configuration given the speed, it might cause passenger to slam against the wall of the ride vehicle.

If you watch the winter Olympics, when the bobsleds start swinging horizontally like that, they soon crash!

 

[choco choco]

I think there may be some room to develop a ride vehicle chassis that has a softer, more side to side give in it to create a fishtailing type slide that a toboggan would have in a trench. Call Bob Gurr. That would make each car feel more loose and like it's more precarious. The feedback from the track is too direct right now. Even the ability to have them shock mounted to have a feel for leaning into the turns more like the old sleds.

I wonder if its possible to do an actual bobsled coaster, like the ones that are present in other parks. I know real bobsled coasters require high walls, so maybe the Matterhorn can't really accommodate that, or they are afraid of losing the views as you ride down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobsled_roller_coaster

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's fun to look at Daveland's Matterhorn page and notice the evolution of the ride.

http://davelandweb.com/matterhorn/

The landscaping and early area development back in the 60's looked pretty bad compared to it's lushness today. I'd imagine making any serious track modifications or a trough would impact the tunnels and pathways, etc. and be pretty tough. Maybe a small shock mounting or slight "give" would work in place of a full on swinging sensation? Just reinforce the turns where the vehicle seems to "break away". I noticed that there were far more openings and views back when it opened, including 3 open runs under the giant waterfall.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Therein lies the rub.

The 7DC track looks like it is massively reinforced to allow for the side to side motion, the RSR ride vehicles have something like north of 20 wheels underneath the track in various positions to keep the ride vehicle on the track, and that is because of speed, and unwanted side to side motion, and other unwanted movement, and the forces that accompany that.

What I remember from the old Matterhorn was the vertical dropping sensation, which probably was accented because of the loose seat-belt and the open bobsled. The new rider position with legs looped under the chair (if I got this description correctly), looks like it was introduced to prevent the upward/vertical movement of the rider independent of the ride vehicle. Remember the sad accident of the woman who "stood up" on the Mattehorn, they obviously want to keep riders firmly inside the vehicle. The old ride configuration definitely provided some thrills as you felt the bobsled almost drop out from under you.

Retrofitting the ride so that you've got a ride vehicle that moves indenpedent of the chasis to some extent would probably require reinforcing the track, and decreasing the banking angle as the ride vehicle would bank for you.

I think an improvement might be to build bobsleds with individual seats inclined backwards more, which if they all inclined at the same angle, you'd be able to the fit the same number, and you'd have more leg room. When the bobsled shoots down, and your momentum carries you forward, you might get a sensation of "lift" as not all of your weight would be on your tail-bone, but spread out over a larger area, and your feet and head would sort of go "airborne" for a couple seconds. But, then again, if you incline the seats back too much then people have trouble getting inside.

For some sections of the 7DC track, it looks like the rails vary with the parallel to the ground, introducing some "shaking" of the ride vehicle like in a mine. Basically, for example, the right rail dips, and the left rail stays parallel to the ground, and this introduces some "swinging" to the ride vehicle.

Similar style vehicle on Matterhorn probably couldn't have such a rail configuration given the speed, it might cause passenger to slam against the wall of the ride vehicle.

If you watch the winter Olympics, when the bobsleds start swinging horizontally like that, they soon crash!

Good points. I just flew on Air France where the seats slid forward and angled, sliding legs beneath the next seat to allow you to lay down but never moved their fixed positions.

http://corporate.airfrance.com/fileadmin/dossiers/images/PremiumVoyageur_legendes.jpg

The Bobsled changes were obviously not driven to improve the ride experience, but to restrain the rider as you point out. As I recall, the previous vehicles allowed your legs to pass a bit beyond the sides of the seatback in front of you and that does not happen here. That way you naturally adjusted your own angle and were not squeezed in. It looks to me like some people may not be able to fit in today's sled at all :-( The first Gen vehicles had high sides and were pretty narrow and tight. You were encouraged to extend your arms out and hold on to the external rails which would be a no-no today. The 2G design was wider and more sloshy but had the handles inside.

BTW. Please define "7DC" for us. Is this the generation of track design?

 

[lazyboy97o]

BTW. Please define "7DC" for us. Is this the generation of track design?

It's short for Seven Dwarfs Coaster, itself a shorthand for the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. I would assume that the track is likely a Vekoma design, as they seem to be Disney's go-to company for roller coasters.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's short for Seven Dwarfs Coaster, itself a shorthand for the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. I would assume that the track is likely a Vekoma design, as they seem to be Disney's go-to company for roller coasters.

They have been, yes. Ok. 7DC....That's soooooooo obvious (but not to me!). LOL. I have never worked with Vekoma as my projects were usually internal to WDI and all custom like Pooh. For some reason. I thought you were breaking down the Matterhorn's track modifications into design revisions.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I've really been enjoying reading this thread. Thanks for responding, it's been an interesting insight.

Did you ride the Matterhorn? I rode it with my family, and we all simultaneously wondered where the legroom went when getting into the sled. It's really unfortunate, the ride was quite uncomfortable. Other than that though, it looked great. Still my favorite "mountain" in the park. It's just one of those rides where the layout always surprises.

I dislike the Matterhorn. It's incredibly uncomfortable even without the legroom issues. It has the same problems that Space Mountain in Disney World has, except it's older so you feel every weld in the track that much more.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I dislike the Matterhorn. It's incredibly uncomfortable even without the legroom issues. It has the same problems that Space Mountain in Disney World has, except it's older so you feel every weld in the track that much more.

It is like riding a scab at times. Imagine how many times they have replaced sections of track and structure. A decade ago I recall a proposal to just tear it down and start over as it was getting so old. I think they replaced the inner structure and the wood lathe.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

It is like riding a scab at times. Imagine how many times they have replaced sections of track and structure. A decade ago I recall a proposal to just tear it down and start over as it was getting so old. I think they replaced the inner structure and the wood lathe.

The Matterhorn sure is getting up in age, and I know they replaced some rotten wood on the inside. My biggest letdown between concept art for the Matterhorn and Expedition Everest and what was built is that the concept art depicts more of a sprawling mountain, whereas the Matterhorn and Everest we got are much more box-like, than say Big Thunder which sprawls to a much higher degree.

http://www.imagineeringdisney.com/blog/2010/7/25/matterhorn-for-magic-kingdom-fantasyland.html

Everest is OK, but the effect is ruined as the landscaping around the mountain throws off the perspective. Shown below, the trees seem to go up about a third of the way up the mountain, and the lack of smaller "foothills" around the mountain make the idea of a mountain range implausible. Some of the early concept art for Everest depicted more of a mountain range look than the box structure. The train ascending the track also throws off the scale. The Matterhorn looks more like a real mountain to me.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Expedition_Everest.jpg

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Very nice sketch! I hope you had extra napkins. Very cool. I did a rendering years ago for a Matterhorn at EPCOT for the Swiss Pavilion. It looked a bit like yours with the Mountain in the back and the sleds reaching out to the street with the village in between. If I find a copy I'll post it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

It is like riding a scab at times. Imagine how many times they have replaced sections of track and structure. A decade ago I recall a proposal to just tear it down and start over as it was getting so old. I think they replaced the inner structure and the wood lathe.

Jim Hill talked about that fairly recently where they were going to have one night where the new one and old one were both open. It sounded intriguing.

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

Very nice sketch! I hope you had extra napkins. Very cool. I did a rendering years ago for a Matterhorn at EPCOT for the Swiss Pavilion. It looked a bit like yours with the Mountain in the back and the sleds reaching out to the street with the village in between. If I find a copy I'll post it.

I'd love to see that.

I know they replace the track often, but is there any reason why the replacement track doesn't make much difference? Either way, it'd be sad to see the mountain torn down, especially considering its historic significance as the first steel coaster (even though none of the original track is probably still there).

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Very nice sketch! I hope you had extra napkins. Very cool. I did a rendering years ago for a Matterhorn at EPCOT for the Swiss Pavilion. It looked a bit like yours with the Mountain in the back and the sleds reaching out to the street with the village in between. If I find a copy I'll post it.

The sketch isn't mine. It was from a website, link provided, and I believe it to be 100% bonafide concept art of the Matterhorn (or maybe for one in the Magic Kingdom???) I hadn't even realized it was done on a napkin. It does show how the imagineers back then wanted to expand the Matterhorn attractions into three attractions:

1. Bobsleds.
2. Junior bobsleds.
3. River ride.

I think they should have done a bigger EE that was able to house a couple of rides, which AK needs.

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

No, it's not an actual Imagineer's plan.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

No, it's not an actual Imagineer's plan.

So true. It does not look expensive enough.

 

[MarkTwain]

If I understand correctly, the sketch was done by Mitch at ImagineeringDisney as a proposal for how a Matterhorn could be integrated into the Magic Kingdom. And yes, it was done on a napkin.

http://www.imagineeringdisney.com/blog/2010/7/25/matterhorn-for-magic-kingdom-fantasyland.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Mitch is a good graphic designer too.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Check it out time...
Kevin Yee has made some really good observations about things other parks are doing that are worth discussing.
http://miceage.micechat.com/kevinyee/ky070312a.htm