Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
I know they have seriously discussed this internally over the years as far back as when I was there, and at least adding one side to Disneyland on the East. I heard this was pretty close to happening a number of times. DLP uses them now to help the guest exit flow after parades and they work really well for that. This solution has not happened as they are rather expensive to do as there are disruptive impacts. Arcades have the issue of separating the shop from it's stockroom, thusly isolating the retail stores from being easily restocked without crossing the guests. disneyland has no real second story and so most of it is stocked from the rear. DLP has the upstairs as a stock room in some cases and bridges over the arcades leading to backstage elevators so the CM's can cross and bring carts of additional product without crossing the guest area. Who knew that the bigger problem would be that not enough guests were interested in the product!

Given space issues in Disneyland, I think that building some utilidors to allow access to the east side of Main Street would allow a second street parallel to Main Street to built, which I think Walt sort of thought about with Edison Square/Liberty Street, though there are a lot of support buildings, by building down, maybe a lot of the space issue problems could be solved.

The second street could have maybe even have a small D-ticket, like maybe a ride into the early history of animation. I always wish they would built a ride that has a "Wizard of Oz" effect, such that the first part of the ride, such as 'Steamboat Willie' section would be in black/white, or a Wizard of Oz sepia/white, and then you magically transition to a color animated film, maybe Dumbo (or a color Mickey short like lonesome ghosts) or something not already represented in a dark ride, and I guess with Mickey tying it all together, sort of traveling through these different animated films with you.
 

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
We were discussing a ride recently and his comment was that it was great to look at but lacked magic.

Little Mermaid? Elements of the ride look great, but there isn't that thread of magic that ties the ride together, like when you fly through the Darling's window on Peter Pan and out over London, you're on that magical journey.

Ursula is a bonafide sea-witch, but all you see of her using her powers is rubbing her hands while looking into her crystal ball and crooning. Tony Baxter's additions to Snow White really plus the ride as when the evil queen changes into the witch you get all of these great effects in the room, and you really feel like 'magic' has happened.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
DisneyQuest was designed to be in many cities, continually evolving the games, and that has not happened as it is a lone beachhead in the tourist turnover market of WDW. You can't justify developing product for just one location. Very innovative in it's day.

Right, but I don't think it was ever marketed very well. I think people were confused by the concept or just heard of it as a "glorified arcade" when I liked to think of it as a "Virtual theme park". Its funny that other similar efforts did much better, Gameworks, Dave and Busters, etc.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Here's a great article that "Disney and More" has posted on the TDS version of Toy Story Midway Mania.

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2012/06/tokyo-disney-sea-toy-story-mania-first.html

This would have been a unique approach to the Victorian design at DCA's Paradise Pier. So much more accurate and immersive. DCA is California, so more of an Italian inspired Venice Pier look would have made it far enough from being another Main Street. This TDS version looks well researched and the proportions, styling and scale feel different than your average Main Street. The article shows you the research and the "why" of the design. This area really takes you back to Coney Island's "Luna Park" and the many "Trolley Parks" (built by railroads at the ends of their lines to build ridership) that replicated this unique fantasy architecture. Thompson and Dundy, architects of Luna Park, set out to create their own exotic style and you sense much of that here in this new area.The night shots look great with the crisscross of bulbs on the minaret roofs. Other than overuse of teal green, it's really good. At the end of the article, there is a great documentary on Coney Island that IMO, is a must watch. Bring your Kleenex.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Right, but I don't think it was ever marketed very well. I think people were confused by the concept or just heard of it as a "glorified arcade" when I liked to think of it as a "Virtual theme park". Its funny that other similar efforts did much better, Gameworks, Dave and Busters, etc.

One issue DisneyQuest had was being at WDW and trying to break out with a clear marketing message from all the other "Disney" branded experiences. It is far more unique and more of a "virtual theme park" when it is set in a less confusing context, like Chicago, where it did well.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Before I read this post I was going to bring up building a Mr. Toad restaurant and attraction in the Magic Kingdom. They took out the old Mr. Toad ride, but with the new movie, and obvious love of the attraction, I think an updated Toad attraction would last for decades, especially as an E-Ticket.

Regarding bringing DLP's dragon to Disneyland's castle, I would assume that this would involve building a grotto where they are putting in the princess meet and greet. It certainly would have plussed the walk-through.

It would be great to see Toad come back in some form, either as a "dine and ride" option as you mention, at WS, just something that uses his character and that great Tudor look.

As for the Dragon's Lair, you are right, the idea was to build a rock cladded show building near the "princess meet and greet".
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Given space issues in Disneyland, I think that building some utilidors to allow access to the east side of Main Street would allow a second street parallel to Main Street to built, which I think Walt sort of thought about with Edison Square/Liberty Street, though there are a lot of support buildings, by building down, maybe a lot of the space issue problems could be solved.

The second street could have maybe even have a small D-ticket, like maybe a ride into the early history of animation. I always wish they would built a ride that has a "Wizard of Oz" effect, such that the first part of the ride, such as 'Steamboat Willie' section would be in black/white, or a Wizard of Oz sepia/white, and then you magically transition to a color animated film, maybe Dumbo (or a color Mickey short like lonesome ghosts) or something not already represented in a dark ride, and I guess with Mickey tying it all together, sort of traveling through these different animated films with you.

Your thoughts on the East side of Main Street are exactly what had been discussed in my day. So you are on the right track. As for the "black and white" to "color" ride idea, you are right again, there was a proposal many years ago for a Mickey Mouse Ride where you tour his Studio using that technique (designed by the Kirk Brothers). Toontown later incorporated much of that idea in "Mickey's Movie Barn".
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Little Mermaid? Elements of the ride look great, but there isn't that thread of magic that ties the ride together, like when you fly through the Darling's window on Peter Pan and out over London, you're on that magical journey.

Ursula is a bonafide sea-witch, but all you see of her using her powers is rubbing her hands while looking into her crystal ball and crooning. Tony Baxter's additions to Snow White really plus the ride as when the evil queen changes into the witch you get all of these great effects in the room, and you really feel like 'magic' has happened.

"Magic" can be an elusive quality. You can create magic in ways that even surpass the content of the scenes. Sometimes the ride system creates the magic by reacting to the content, as in the case of Indiana Jones. The vehicle uses action to illustrate what you are doing. When the snake leaps out, the car wrenches back as we do. It backs up to help us escape, like a trusty horse. It becomes a character. Pooh in TDL is that way too as it bounces along with Tigger, backs us out of danger, etc. In the end, it is all of it working together that surprises us in a "how did they do that?' kind of way. The immersion of "Carsland" transports us into the movie and that's magic. The ride goes even further. Subconsciously we know how it's done, but we submit to our senses telling us we are in Ornament Valley because it reinforces the illusion so well and consistently. When a ride or show is so flawed and has so many thematic "distractions" or "contradictions" that you never lose yourself in it, then the magic does not have a chance to take hold.

The other point you touch on is an important one. It's characters that "do" something. It always bothered me that the TDL Dragon in the Castle Mystery Tour was asleep. If "Magic" is the "illusion of life", why not make it seem more alive? Why build it if it's sleeping? Make it more memorable. Give it something to do. it's an actor, give it a part to play. Give us something to photograph. In DLP, the same Dragon is alive and smoking and it's a 20 year old hit. The TDL Dragon is gone.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
One issue DisneyQuest had was being at WDW and trying to break out with a clear marketing message from all the other "Disney" branded experiences. It is far more unique and more of a "virtual theme park" when it is set in a less confusing context, like Chicago, where it did well.

If the Chicago location did well - any idea why they punted on the concept so early? And why even after punting the other locations, they kept DTD running for what is what.. like 10 years later?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
They decided they did not want to support the entire rollout of DisneyQuest as the return was not great enough (the kiddie place, Club Disney wasn't returning that well either), so they scaled back the whole beyond the gate effort and kept ESPN Zones, then whittled down the LBE department. There were some in WDI that felt that DQ was killed off prematurely. In turn, because it was locally maintained and could do ok, they kept WDW. I could be wrong about this, but that is my recollection.
 

StageFrenzy

Well-Known Member
Here's something interesting. I wonder what someone was thinking?

http://micechat.com/forums/hong-kong-disneyland-resort/169967-monster-mainstreet.html

It was obviously operations right? Someone got a pat on the back too, I bet. On the thread they mention Tokyo's covering, was that an OLC change or did WDI have anything to do with it. On dry days most guests probably wish it wasn't there, but i guarantee on wet days they probably wouldn't have it any other way.
 

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
Here's something interesting. I wonder what someone was thinking?

http://micechat.com/forums/hong-kong-disneyland-resort/169967-monster-mainstreet.html

Wow, that is very cheap looking. I think they could have built a similar structure like the Crystal Palace in Magic Kingdom, but on a smaller scale, which would have served whatever purpose this building would have, and would almost pulled off looking appropriate on Main Street. Wedged between two buildings like that, it really look out of place. The thread hints that it is a store, too high in my opinion, unless they are planning on adding a second story.

I don't think it will especially solve any rain issues as it doesn't cover all of Main Street. If they have rain issues then they should have added an arcade for use when it rains really bad.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
emptoday.jpg



Looks like they took their cue from WDW's Main Street Monstrosity.
What's with the urge to destroy side streets for twelve feet of extra street frontage retail space? Hong Kong even copied the arcade-look - compare the ground floor of the MK.

Soon, they'll have a massive hat blocking the park icon....
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
In Paris we had the same situation as we needed an entrance to the arcades.

http://images.mouseplanet.com/dtp/compressed/Liberty34.jpg

We kept the Liberty Court Facade scaled down and set back (versus jutting forward) so it did not compete with the other facades. The hard part in both the HKDL and WDW examples is that the windows of the adjoining facades face the windows of the new one between it, so it' s an obvious after thought. The WDW one comes off mostly flat with inset panels and little delicate ornament. The facades to the left and right are beautifully scaled and are more dimensional, with layers of fine moldings and ornamental overhangs to add visual richness. The loss here in any case, is the sense of a side street.
 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
emptoday.jpg



Looks like they took their cue from WDW's Main Street Monstrosity.
What's with the urge to destroy side streets for twelve feet of extra street frontage retail space? Hong Kong even copied the arcade-look - compare the ground floor of the MK.

Soon, they'll have a massive hat blocking the park icon....

At least it has the same type of architecture in the same style. Sure, the lack of side street is disappointing but at least it fits in with its surroundings.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
As we are chatting about detail and facade design, here's a couple to discuss from Paris. They are not perfect, but have charm. We added a San Francisco feel to our East Center Street (renamed Market Street in DLP). The Victorian details are more eclectic and fanciful and very dimensional. We decided that they would be apartments or boarding houses to add a residential dimension to the street. The design needs to have story content and props to really feel real. The Signage shown here is from Beulah's Boarding House. (Beulah relates the the Disney film "Summer Magic" as it's a town in Maine). Some of the names have significance too, such as "Harmony Bob" running the nearby Barber Shop, "Dr. Sherwood" being the first person to hire Walt to draw picture of his horse, and "J. (Jack) Junkmeyer" was the first Editor of the Disneyland Newspaper back in 1955. Godey is known for a woman's fashion journal of the 1860's-70''s named "Godey's Lady's Book".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godey's_Lady's_Book

Sound effects of "piano lessons" waft out the upstairs window as we hear practicing from time to time so the facade has life going on. Studying Piano and practice was a common back as homes had parlors, movies like "The Music Man" featured this.

Can't recall the significance if any of the other names, although we used period Disney movies as a source from time to time. There was a real "H.M. Sanders" that wrote about other metaphysical writings back in 1900, but that was not my suggestion, maybe someone in show writing tossed him in. The other detail we noticed at Disneyland that had gotten lost was the use of mailboxes. We tried to add them where appropriate to make the street feel like a real town. (Now I wish there was a crate of fake milk bottles on the porch!) The "No Tobacco" sign is an antique as it adds personality to the propriety of the house. In some places there are parked bicycles.

We also tried something new to Main Street which had historic precedent, doing awnings with solid trim and graphics on the edges or in the body. ICE CREAM is emblazoned on the edges of the awnings you see there and that was a new graphic design detail we began back in Paris. It busied things up, but added some character to the facades.

The point here is that facades are not just decorated walls to hide the stores, they are the threads that make up the social fabric of the small town. Facades as much as anything tell our story in a subtle, implicit way. They contain more than Disney insider references, they exist to enhance the area's theme as a source of story, drawn from the sense of community that is Main Street.

They communicate in many ways beyond architecture the personality of those who live inside of them, otherwise they are just that, facades. Even if they are masks, they need to have expression and personality. Buildings are happy or sad, just like cars seem to have faces. Everything matters. The color communicates the taste and in some cases the gender of the inhabitants. The materials and textures communicate the period and even the locale as they are usually native to an area. Banks and other institutions were meant to say "trust" so they'd have Greek columns to say they have legacy and strength, the limestone or granite says they will be there forever and so your money is safe. Our City Hall was done in that tradition as well. What "they" (our citizens) leave behind on the porch or erect on a sign betrays a lifestyle or personality, and we sense all of that. If that dimension is missing or random, we sense that at some level too. I venture to guess the strong reaction to these facades at HKDL and WDW is not just visual, it's also a gut reaction to something deeper as they may not respond that well to the "town" aspects of Main Street.

Or do they? Since we see the same "Emporium" sign on all of the WDW buildings in that picture, maybe there is a sort of truth here that's actually part of the story. The big box Emporium has expanded to close down all the small Mom and Pop businesses, taking over the entire block. That's American! Is the small town is now a mall town? It's funny that the 1955 MSUSA story was always about a "small town in transition from Gas to Electric and from Horse and buggy to Horseless Carriage". Of course, these developments would lead to one outcome, growth. Progress is another dilemma that faces any small town. Has Main Street given way to Walt-Mart?


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flynnibus

Premium Member
is that door just painted there or is it actually there? :)

Great background on the design process Eddie! always appreciate you sharing this
 

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