Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[flynnibus]

Its a dummy door, but it is real and not scenically painted. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think it's just the intense blue on the frame and door matching that kind of make the door almost look 'flat' and look like its painted on the wall Look at the photo with the ground threshold out of frame.. and it really blends in. More of an artifact of viewing it on a computer I'm sure..

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Here's an interesting article on the history of Disneyland. I think there is more to it than Sam relates here (like Walt being inspired by Greenfield Village) but it's a good read and has some new information. Dave Bradley, mentioned in the article was someone I knew and did some work for early in my career. He told me Walt stories and showed me early sketches that he had.

http://micechat.com/224-walt-disney-disneyland/

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yeah, I think it's just the intense blue on the frame and door matching that kind of make the door almost look 'flat' and look like its painted on the wall Look at the photo with the ground threshold out of frame.. and it really blends in. More of an artifact of viewing it on a computer I'm sure..

When they repainted the door they made the door and the casing (frame around the door) blue making it look fake. They should have left the frame the color of the building and the door blue. That would have solved the problem by separating it.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

With the success of Carsland and the immersive, all out look of it, my guess would be that the tide is turning toward blockbuster "lands" based on a property, versus single ticket projects. WWHP at Universal has been a wake up call that is proving that doing it right, even in retail, is the way to bring incremental attendance. This is big. You have to remember that years ago, the thinking in finance was that parades and shows like Fantasmic! were a far better, and cheaper bet than adding an E Attraction. Indiana Jones was considered a bad value to them compared to telling you it was your last chance to see the Electrical Parade. They did not factor in the impact of those shows in adding viewing, lack of capacity, and stuff like that, but up until WWHP and now the approval ratings of Carsland, investing in that range was not on the table. Why do you think there were no big E Rides (just redos) at DL since Indy?

Bob Iger and Universal have brought in a new era of investment philosophy and with John Lassiter nudging the quality and plussing everything, it's all good. We always knew that awesome products will bring a crowd, but it's more important that the financial community gets this. Taking care of the existing properties is the challenge of course, but in my day it was looking forward to the next parade or anniversary, not the new land.

I'm hoping to see Star Wars be something Disney would embrace in a mega way, but Marvel will likely get first shot in California. I hope Paris gets Star Wars as a land. The Star Tours there is still 1.0 and in sad condition.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think while it works now, the investment in franchise lands may still prove to be a bad choice down the road. Unlike the generic lands of Disneyland, these more specific lands are quite restrictive in what they can accomodate with future additions. While Islands of Adventure is quite landlocked and had issues regarding it parents company caring, it is very much this model played out through an entire park. Expansion has not taken place with the existing properties. The same mindset focused on franchises that builds these lands is also going to deny future expansion if it is perceived that the property has lost relevance.

 

[midwest_mice]

Franchise lands I think are a safe bet. Take a hugely profitable franchise and put it in the parks so guests can immerse in the experience. As much as the Fantasyland expansion will be nice, I don't think its going to have the same effect as a Cars Land or a Star Wars Land. What are the chances of seeing a franchise land come to Hollywood Studios sooner, rather than later? The stunt show takes up quite a bit or real estate given that they also have a practice area too.

 

[CBOMB]

Here's something interesting. I wonder what someone was thinking?

http://micechat.com/forums/hong-kong-disneyland-resort/169967-monster-mainstreet.html

To me that looks as out of place as I think the Louvre Pyramid does.

 

[trs518]

It's interesting to read about some of Walt's failures, as we're more likely to hear about the legend.

http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2012/06/what_would_walt_do_1.html

I'm not going to touch the arguement about whether Walt would approve of something or not. That's for people who knew him.

 

[HMF]

It's interesting to read about some of Walt's failures, as we're more likely to hear about the legend.

http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2012/06/what_would_walt_do_1.html

I'm not going to touch the arguement about whether Walt would approve of something or not. That's for people who knew him.

Yeah, It really irritates me when an Imagineer says that "Walt would have loved this" such as one claims in a recent Cars Land video. No matter how good or poor quality something may be describing your work as something "Walt would love" always come across like putting words in a dead mans mouth and is very arrogant sounding despite the intent. I feel the company should obviously honor Walt and do things the way he would do them but not by invoking his name and assume he would praise something, That cheapens his name and just makes you sound cocky.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yeah, It really irritates me when an Imagineer says that "Walt would have loved this" such as one claims in a recent Cars Land video. No matter how good or poor quality something may be describing your work as something "Walt would love" always come across like putting words in a dead mans mouth and is very arrogant sounding despite the intent. I feel the company should obviously honor Walt and do things the way he would do them but not by invoking his name and assume he would praise something, That cheapens his name and just makes you sound cocky.

Well said. Walt would have loved your comment.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think while it works now, the investment in franchise lands may still prove to be a bad choice down the road. Unlike the generic lands of Disneyland, these more specific lands are quite restrictive in what they can accomodate with future additions. While Islands of Adventure is quite landlocked and had issues regarding it parents company caring, it is very much this model played out through an entire park. Expansion has not taken place with the existing properties. The same mindset focused on franchises that builds these lands is also going to deny future expansion if it is perceived that the property has lost relevance.

Interesting perspective. I visited DCA and Carsland today and it is really well done. The wait for the ride kept me away, but the feel of the land is right on, although it is dead ended. You have to wonder which franchises are timeless as a "world" you would want to be in, regardless of a films waning interest. It has to stand on it's own and not rely on seeing the movie to be awesome. The look and theme must be intrinsically solid like Mr.Toad. Reckless driving will always be fun, film or not. Route 66 is a cool premise and so for me that's a realm I enjoy beyond the puns about cars. The jokey-ness of it (you auto swing by) wears thin right away but the "world" holds together well. I believe that a ride based on competition between vehicles can be timeless too. The Soapbox Ride I first worked on at Knott's was lame to look at, but got tons of re-rides because of it's competitive nature. Carsland has the same dynamic.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It's interesting to read about some of Walt's failures, as we're more likely to hear about the legend.

http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2012/06/what_would_walt_do_1.html

I'm not going to touch the arguement about whether Walt would approve of something or not. That's for people who knew him.

Good article. It's true that some have created standards for Walt that he never lived up to. The world has changed and Walt knew that he was in business to please his audience. I'm just happy that there ARE standards we can all push for.

 

[lazyboy97o]

In the past, we have discussed skeuomorphism, and I am getting a little tired of it in Apple's latest works. The newly released Podcasts apps features an animated tape deck when one looks at the play options. It just seems so unnecessary to waist time and resources creating an animated tape deck that even shows the tape appropriately moving from reel to reel. For a company that is so willing to just completely ditch a technology it considers old, seeing skeuomorphism being more and more part of the design philosophy just seems odd. What's next, could I get all of the joy of an Apple II's look with my next iMac?

This video, a recent TED talk, features two items discussed in the past, the Theme Building at LAX and the iPhone.

Interesting perspective. I visited DCA and Carsland today and it is really well done. The wait for the ride kept me away, but the feel of the land is right on, although it is dead ended. You have to wonder which franchises are timeless as a "world" you would want to be in, regardless of a films waning interest.

Even if the world is timeless, what happens when you want to add something related to the new big franchise? Most parks are limited in their available space. It is not going to fit what exists. Are we going to see bigger projects spread further apart? Adding an attraction to a generic land is one thing, having to tear out and replace a land is an even bigger proposition. Then what happens when one of these big lands just completely bombs?

 

[HMF]

Well said. Walt would have loved your comment.

LOL!

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

The point here is that facades are not just decorated walls to hide the stores, they are the threads that make up the social fabric of the small town. Facades as much as anything tell our story in a subtle, implicit way. They contain more than Disney insider references, they exist to enhance the area's theme as a source of story, drawn from the sense of community that is Main Street.

View attachment 27918View attachment 27919

The story that the facades on Main Street tell is definitely more subtle that the story told by the "residents" of Carsland as the proprietors there have a much deeper back story, but also the structures in Carsland are more clearly separated by the use of space.

While Main Street is one of my favorite lands, I don't like the recent changes in HKDL, and the changes to the Carnation Cafe in Disneyland as you lose the "empty space" between buildings on the small side streets. Even old turn of the century Main Streets probably had small lots, and little corners that weren't much besides some wooden fences.

If more space is needed for a shop, it actually make more sense, at least in my mind, to expand the street back as that would draw more people to the shop as there is more to see visually, rather than trying to draw in more people by bringing the shop closer to the curb.

I can see why Walt wanted to build a haunted house off of Main Street, what a perfect setup for that type of attraction as Main Street is almost "too busy" with shops and people everywhere, and then down a twisty side street sits a hill with a haunted house. Even though WDI wouldn't do this in Disneyland, it would be nice to have open space leading off of Main Street, maybe to a small little park and a shop. If you watch "So Dear to My Heart" there is a more open Main Street, if I recall, and having that feel in the park would be great. Having the side streets open and uncluttered is important as it breaks up the blocks of buildings into somethng more appealing, without them, you've just got a long street with a monotonous row of buildings, which can feel claustrophobic.

Here a little more about the Haunted House on Main Street, http://www.doombuggies.com/history1.php

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

With the success of Carsland and the immersive, all out look of it, my guess would be that the tide is turning toward blockbuster "lands" based on a property, versus single ticket projects.

I also think that Disney forgot how to build "lands", such as those in Disneyland, which represent a themed area appropriate to several attractions. Walt did a great job with Adventureland, the Jungle Cruise fits well, but decades later Indy fits just as well into the land, if not better. Lands, in a lot of cases, outlive the attractions that were located in them, and allow for the easy building of new attractions without having to retheme an area. Look at the former Bear Country, the trees and plants still look great, as does the Hungry Bear, Country Bear Jamboree is now gone, but Splash and Pooh are still well served by the elements of this land. (The Pooh needs to go to Fantasyland and be upgraded to the Tokyo version)

Growing up, I thought that the task of the Imagineers were to basically design new lands for new parks. I was disappointed when I first visited DHS (then MGM Studios) as the boundaries, or even labeling, of lands was much less clear than Disneyland. Sometimes a sub-par ride can be rescued by a fantastic land as the total experience is quite good. Look at the Tea Cups in Disneyland, I like this ride and enjoy it, though I am sure I wouldn't enjoy the same ride operating in an amusement park without just the simple joy of being in Fantasyland.

I think that the real art of being an Imagineer is too create "lands" or themed areas which are enjoyable and which glue the rides together. Carsland works, even if you have never seen Cars, the theme of cars everywhere, and the Route 66 stuff, resonates, and explains why the rides are there and how everything fits together.

I think the Avengers park will work if they can create lands that make sense for several different attractions, and which tell a story without relying on the rides. For example, what if they had an "Arctic Wilderness" land, which would tie into Captain America being frozen there, and perhaps Iron Man has his own "fortress of solitude" there, it could be decked out with buildings that are painted to look like glaciers, and fake snow around the land. Then perhaps another land could be built to look like the surface of a foreign planet, (more than just the future in Tomorrowland), and you could have meteor craters and an alien landscape, and it would tie in with Marvel characters that ventured into space.

The cheap way, or the universal way, would be to build the attractions inside of big show-building and just slap a sign on them.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Here's a question for Mr. Sotto,

My daydreams for a Villains theme park included a Maleficent's castle, instead of the storybook castle of Sleeping Beauty, this castle would look similar to the one in the film, more worn, covered in parts with nasty looking plants, and with a Maleficient dragon which could rise up from the moat and perhaps participate in a show similar to Fantasmic. For the Main Street leading up to the castle I would go with a street based upon "Cherry Tree lane" from Mary Poppins, with an Admiral boom's house, as well as references to other Disney movies somehow related to england/london. There are quite a few, Alice in wonderland, Mary Poppins, the Great Mouse Detective, Mr. Toad, Peter Pan, and on and on. Plus it would be neat to see horsedrawn carriages circle around a castle, plus the red telephone booths.

I assume that the Imagineers have had dreams/ideas for building one of the castles of the Villains in a theme park? If not Maleficient then maybe the witch from Snow White?

thanks,

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I also think that Disney forgot how to build "lands", such as those in Disneyland, which represent a themed area appropriate to several attractions. Walt did a great job with Adventureland, the Jungle Cruise fits well, but decades later Indy fits just as well into the land, if not better. Lands, in a lot of cases, outlive the attractions that were located in them, and allow for the easy building of new attractions without having to retheme an area. Look at the former Bear Country, the trees and plants still look great, as does the Hungry Bear, Country Bear Jamboree is now gone, but Splash and Pooh are still well served by the elements of this land. (The Pooh needs to go to Fantasyland and be upgraded to the Tokyo version)

Growing up, I thought that the task of the Imagineers were to basically design new lands for new parks. I was disappointed when I first visited DHS (then MGM Studios) as the boundaries, or even labeling, of lands was much less clear than Disneyland. Sometimes a sub-par ride can be rescued by a fantastic land as the total experience is quite good. Look at the Tea Cups in Disneyland, I like this ride and enjoy it, though I am sure I wouldn't enjoy the same ride operating in an amusement park without just the simple joy of being in Fantasyland.

I think that the real art of being an Imagineer is too create "lands" or themed areas which are enjoyable and which glue the rides together. Carsland works, even if you have never seen Cars, the theme of cars everywhere, and the Route 66 stuff, resonates, and explains why the rides are there and how everything fits together.

I think the Avengers park will work if they can create lands that make sense for several different attractions, and which tell a story without relying on the rides. For example, what if they had an "Arctic Wilderness" land, which would tie into Captain America being frozen there, and perhaps Iron Man has his own "fortress of solitude" there, it could be decked out with buildings that are painted to look like glaciers, and fake snow around the land. Then perhaps another land could be built to look like the surface of a foreign planet, (more than just the future in Tomorrowland), and you could have meteor craters and an alien landscape, and it would tie in with Marvel characters that ventured into space.

The cheap way, or the universal way, would be to build the attractions inside of big show-building and just slap a sign on them.

All good points, in the end, building a land is far more fun than just doing a single attraction. Lands are an open premise that allow you to plug in things that work over time. That is why tying it all into one movie may be too restrictive as some point out. It depends on what the property is. Fantasyland is pretty broad considering that the Castle is the marquee based on a single film, yet the land is a greatest hits from all kinds of stuff. That strong presence of the Castle being a single move did not hurt other things being added, including Small world.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Here's a question for Mr. Sotto,

My daydreams for a Villains theme park included a Maleficent's castle, instead of the storybook castle of Sleeping Beauty, this castle would look similar to the one in the film, more worn, covered in parts with nasty looking plants, and with a Maleficient dragon which could rise up from the moat and perhaps participate in a show similar to Fantasmic. For the Main Street leading up to the castle I would go with a street based upon "Cherry Tree lane" from Mary Poppins, with an Admiral boom's house, as well as references to other Disney movies somehow related to england/london. There are quite a few, Alice in wonderland, Mary Poppins, the Great Mouse Detective, Mr. Toad, Peter Pan, and on and on. Plus it would be neat to see horsedrawn carriages circle around a castle, plus the red telephone booths.

I assume that the Imagineers have had dreams/ideas for building one of the castles of the Villains in a theme park? If not Maleficient then maybe the witch from Snow White?

thanks,

There have been proposals in part for most all of the elements you propose in attraction form, including a Villain's park, I think it included a Castle. In fact, the Castle from (Evil Queen) Snow White is the facade for the ride at DL now, as she peers out the window. So you are thinking like a true Imagineer!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The story that the facades on Main Street tell is definitely more subtle that the story told by the "residents" of Carsland as the proprietors there have a much deeper back story, but also the structures in Carsland are more clearly separated by the use of space.

While Main Street is one of my favorite lands, I don't like the recent changes in HKDL, and the changes to the Carnation Cafe in Disneyland as you lose the "empty space" between buildings on the small side streets. Even old turn of the century Main Streets probably had small lots, and little corners that weren't much besides some wooden fences.

If more space is needed for a shop, it actually make more sense, at least in my mind, to expand the street back as that would draw more people to the shop as there is more to see visually, rather than trying to draw in more people by bringing the shop closer to the curb.

I can see why Walt wanted to build a haunted house off of Main Street, what a perfect setup for that type of attraction as Main Street is almost "too busy" with shops and people everywhere, and then down a twisty side street sits a hill with a haunted house. Even though WDI wouldn't do this in Disneyland, it would be nice to have open space leading off of Main Street, maybe to a small little park and a shop. If you watch "So Dear to My Heart" there is a more open Main Street, if I recall, and having that feel in the park would be great. Having the side streets open and uncluttered is important as it breaks up the blocks of buildings into somethng more appealing, without them, you've just got a long street with a monotonous row of buildings, which can feel claustrophobic.

Here a little more about the Haunted House on Main Street, http://www.doombuggies.com/history1.php

Space is so important and as the park becomes valuable the land is precious. Carsland is pretty spacious, and so is DCA in general. Studio Backlots had those faceted and curved streets that mask the fact that there is no real side street, but gave you a sense that the city or set was larger than it really was. When you plug up the side streets, it's no longer a town giving you a sense of an intersection that leads somewhere like the suburbs, but a boulevard.