Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[jt04]

Here's some more pics of the new remodel work on Main Street. Lots going on.

http://micechat.com/blogs/dateline-...-mermaids-re-openings-remodels-revisions.html

Yes Main Street is looking great at both US castle parks.

I am seeing more pictures of LBV Street at DCA and I am really impressed. There is something sublime in the understated architecture (if that makes sense). :lol:

They are definitely evoking something wonderful or even profound about that era and I can't wait to see the finished product. I don't think I am overstating it either but then I am just a novice at best at evaluating this stuff.

Do you avoid watching the progress of such projects in the way that movie goers avoid spoilers before seeing a movie? Or are you a big a fan of watching projects be built as some of us are?

Any opinions on the new DCA you would care to share with us?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes Main Street is looking great at both US castle parks.

I am seeing more pictures of LBV Street at DCA and I am really impressed. There is something sublime in the understated architecture (if that makes sense). :lol:

They are definitely evoking something wonderful or even profound about that era and I can't wait to see the finished product. I don't think I am overstating it either but then I am just a novice at best at evaluating this stuff.

Do you avoid watching the progress of such projects in the way that movie goers avoid spoilers before seeing a movie? Or are you a big a fan of watching projects be built as some of us are?

Any opinions on the new DCA you would care to share with us?

I kind of try and wait till it's done before making a call, but notice things in the construction that are either good details or bad. It's a bit of a curse as I recognize the catalog items, like where they get their light fixtures and ironwork from. I'm guess I'm too close to it to be objective. I'd rather be you!

 

[IlikeDW]

To those of you new to the thread, this long awaited reprint of the DLP Book is hopping off of the presses. Easily the best thing to happen on the 20th of DLP. Truly worth the price.

http://neverlandeditions.blogspot.com/2012/04/lll.html

Anxiously awaiting mine, mostly your fault.

 

[KevinYee]

I take it that there are only 2-3 (or four or five) vendors in existence that supply that kind of things that WDI needs in a given environment? You actually recognize catalog items... that's pretty impressive!

Tell us more about the "stripping away of magic" that occurs when you're on that side of the table. Any good stories?

 

[Jeanine]

To those of you new to the thread, this long awaited reprint of the DLP Book is hopping off of the presses. Easily the best thing to happen on the 20th of DLP. Truly worth the price.

http://neverlandeditions.blogspot.com/2012/04/lll.html

Looking forward to receiving mine--have you seen the new anniversary book the park put out recently? Is it worth ordering?

The remodel work on Main St. looks nice, but it's hard to see the marginalization of the poor Penny Arcade machines and not think that the next redo will probably eliminate them entirely in favor of more retail space.

At least some of the details remind me a little of another candy palace...


Boardwalk Candy Palace by JustJeanine, on Flickr


Boardwalk Candy Palace by JustJeanine, on Flickr

 

[trs518]

Be Our Guest Restaurant Inspiration?

Let me ask this question....When trying to recreate an actual place from a movie, how accurate do Imagineers try to be to the movie? Is it down to the last detail, do they change minor details, or do they make wholesale changes? Have they ever tried to be accuate, but then found out that it simply wouldn't work.

I know that some of the original Imagineers worked in the movies.

The reason I ask, and I can't find the link, is that I was reading about the new Be Our Guest restaurant was "inspired" by the movie.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I take it that there are only 2-3 (or four or five) vendors in existence that supply that kind of things that WDI needs in a given environment? You actually recognize catalog items... that's pretty impressive!

Tell us more about the "stripping away of magic" that occurs when you're on that side of the table. Any good stories?

I look at a project and can see how many finishes are true "period" finishes and how many are typical modern architectural finishes. Sometimes it's a modern process that compromises the feel of the period. You see what is water jet cut aluminum filagree from an Illustrator file, then powder coated, and that adds a glaze, versus what is traditionally cast from sand or wax and hand painted. Scenic faux finishes stand out to me as well if they are not perfect.

There are generic wood victorian fretworks that are easy to spot. http://www.cumberlandwoodcraft.com/products.asp?cat=5

Victorian wallpaper that is amazing and really makes main street sing. We used it all over DLP and then DL when i was down there. http://bradbury.com/

You want to do your own New Orleans Square? It's all here. Even the wall vents. Haunted Mansion balconies http://www.orleansornamental.com/search.asp?pl=52&ctg=CASTING (BIRD OF PARADISE and even Walt's crest.
http://www.orleansornamental.com/contents.asp

http://www.orleansornamental.com/search.asp?pl=67,110&ctg=CASTING (VENTS)
http://www.orleansornamental.com/search.asp?pl=61,73&ctg=ALUMINUM (Walt crest frame is on page 2)

Or street lighting.
Or speaker grilles
http://www.reggioregister.com/category/metal-grilles
http://www.ela-lighting.com/html_pages/arch_outdoor/cross_arms/cross_arms.html

Wrought iron made on mechanical bending machines versus hand forged makes the curves look lame or limp with tack welds. No one will know but nuts like me that see this stuff in catalogs or know the process of manufacturing decorative elements. Square tube steel used to emulate wood for railings that looks cheap and hollow and modern with exposed and unfinished weld joints, stuff like that. Phillips heads screws were invented in about 1930, so they are taboo on my jobs if it's period. This is the kind of thing that is a design "spoiler" to me and I can't ignore it. You've done it for 30 years and you just see these things pretending to be Victorian, Deco or whatever. You guys are blessed as you don't see this stuff and just enjoy it ( till now!!! Wohwahahaha!). I could go through MiceAge updates and point out all kinds of stuff like that but I'd just seem like a knit picker. It's not bad, just familiar and triggers a process in my head.

Do you really want me to ruin it all? I hope not.

Ok. Here's one to keep you at bay Kevin. This awesome light and the variation next to it, on the DCA Carthay Circle building came from Lantern Masters. http://www.lanternmasters.com/Pages/House 35/Private35.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Let me ask this question....When trying to recreate an actual place from a movie, how accurate do Imagineers try to be to the movie? Is it down to the last detail, do they change minor details, or do they make wholesale changes? Have they ever tried to be accuate, but then found out that it simply wouldn't work.

I know that some of the original Imagineers worked in the movies.

The reason I ask, and I can't find the link, is that I was reading about the new Be Our Guest restaurant was "inspired" by the movie.

Usually you try to copy the film, but the operational aspects of how the space has to work quickly take over. You end adding Exit Signs and finishes that are guest proof, cash wraps, ramps for code and before you know it, it's not much of a movie set. We start there and try to give you the feel and keep the iconic elements that most people remember, but it's usually a mash-up.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Looking forward to receiving mine--have you seen the new anniversary book the park put out recently? Is it worth ordering?

The remodel work on Main St. looks nice, but it's hard to see the marginalization of the poor Penny Arcade machines and not think that the next redo will probably eliminate them entirely in favor of more retail space.

At least some of the details remind me a little of another candy palace...


Boardwalk Candy Palace by JustJeanine, on Flickr


Boardwalk Candy Palace by JustJeanine, on Flickr

The Red, Off White and Navy Blue color scheme of the DL Penny Arcade came from DLP's Disney and Company. http://www.designingdisney.com/content/designing-main-street-usa-disney-co-shop

 

[KevinYee]

Ok. Here's one to keep you at bay Kevin

LOL. Love the metaphor. I'm pulling at my leash, desperate to break free!! :lol:

I absolutely love details like you gave in that post. And they illustrate a very important point that's been made before by many others: the "hidden" details matter a great deal.

Real vs. fake Victorian wallpaper? I'd have no clue. A Phillips screw in use for a 1901 period set? Would never have noticed.

Or would we notice? I kind of think we would... subconsciously. If enough of these details are wrong, then the whole thing seems "off" just a little bit (this is where Freud calls things "uncanny" - like an android that is ALMOST convincing, but is ever so slightly off).

It seems to me that an awful lot of 'theme' environments and parks around the world get this wrong. They do take the shortcut, and buy fake Victorian wallpaper (or the equivalent thereof for any given project).

What the world needs is designers who read as much (and as widely) as you do, Eddie, and who consider history important. And fascinating.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Keeping it Real. There you have it.

LOL. Love the metaphor. I'm pulling at my leash, desperate to break free!! :lol:

I absolutely love details like you gave in that post. And they illustrate a very important point that's been made before by many others: the "hidden" details matter a great deal.

Real vs. fake Victorian wallpaper? I'd have no clue. A Phillips screw in use for a 1901 period set? Would never have noticed.

Or would we notice? I kind of think we would... subconsciously. If enough of these details are wrong, then the whole thing seems "off" just a little bit (this is where Freud calls things "uncanny" - like an android that is ALMOST convincing, but is ever so slightly off).

It seems to me that an awful lot of 'theme' environments and parks around the world get this wrong. They do take the shortcut, and buy fake Victorian wallpaper (or the equivalent thereof for any given project).

What the world needs is designers who read as much (and as widely) as you do, Eddie, and who consider history important. And fascinating.

There are far more period reproduction sources today than in 1992 and almost none in 1955. I replaced my light switches at home with these. They predate the house by a few years but have the right feel. http://www.classicaccents.net/

Now you see why I'm cursed! Everything (usually my own stuff) has something "wrong" with it as you really cannot expect to be that meticulous. The things that bother me most are not the lack of budget, but when something could have been done well for the same money if only the research or effort had been expended. Herb Ryman once said "Bad Taste costs no more". He was right. We make it too easy to pick the same font and drag and drop a graphic without kerning the letters, or look at another theme park to research "history". It's all been done and better, but we fall into habits, myself included.

DLP had to be authentic, job one, so here's another source for a unique material we used extensively on Main Street as an alternative to wallpaper. It's not plastic, it's Lincrusta. We scenically painted it to great effect all over the area and it felt true to the time.
http://lincrusta.com/TheHistoryofLincrusta.Asp
http://lincrusta.com/TheLincrustaCollection_Product.Asp?CollectionName=Wallcoverings

Ceilings were authentic as well. There are better sources, but you want historic patterns and real trims, not the kind that fit into T Bar drop ceiling systems.
http://www.thetinman.com/styles_turncentury.htm

Then the props have to be spot on, and here's the place we bought DLP hearths and furnishings from for Walt's. Especially the lobby.
http://www.antiquariantraders.com/c-13-architectural.aspx

We hired this company to build the Elevator and Nouveau Hearth at Walt's and produce most of the stained glass windows.
http://www.andythornton.com/en-UK/portfolio/15-themed-venues

 

[bcoachable]

With so many choices in materials like the above examples, how does your team ever as a group, come to a consensus?

 

[ChrisFL]

With so many choices in materials like the above examples, how does your team ever as a group, come to a consensus?

I think they use the "Blind dartboard toss"

 

[jt04]

LOL. Love the metaphor. I'm pulling at my leash, desperate to break free!! :lol:

I absolutely love details like you gave in that post. And they illustrate a very important point that's been made before by many others: the "hidden" details matter a great deal.

Real vs. fake Victorian wallpaper? I'd have no clue. A Phillips screw in use for a 1901 period set? Would never have noticed.

Or would we notice? I kind of think we would... subconsciously. If enough of these details are wrong, then the whole thing seems "off" just a little bit (this is where Freud calls things "uncanny" - like an android that is ALMOST convincing, but is ever so slightly off).

It seems to me that an awful lot of 'theme' environments and parks around the world get this wrong. They do take the shortcut, and buy fake Victorian wallpaper (or the equivalent thereof for any given project).

What the world needs is designers who read as much (and as widely) as you do, Eddie, and who consider history important. And fascinating.

Yes incredibly fascinating. I will be noticing phillips screws on MSUSA until the my eyesight goes now. :lol: I agree with about the uncanny quality of some design and how it effects the subconcious. I think you have an entirely new way of judging the magic now.

There are far more period reproduction sources today than in 1992 and almost none in 1955. I replaced my light switches at home with these. They predate the house by a few years but have the right feel. http://www.classicaccents.net/

Now you see why I'm cursed! Everything (usually my own stuff) has something "wrong" with it as you really cannot expect to be that meticulous. The things that bother me most are not the lack of budget, but when something could have been done well for the same money if only the research or effort had been expended. Herb Ryman once said "Bad Taste costs no more". He was right. We make it too easy to pick the same font and drag and drop a graphic without kerning the letters, or look at another theme park to research "history". It's all been done and better, but we fall into habits, myself included.

DLP had to be authentic, job one, so here's another source for a unique material we used extensively on Main Street as an alternative to wallpaper. It's not plastic, it's Lincrusta. We scenically painted it to great effect all over the area and it felt true to the time.
http://lincrusta.com/TheHistoryofLincrusta.Asp
http://lincrusta.com/TheLincrustaCollection_Product.Asp?CollectionName=Wallcoverings

Ceilings were authentic as well. There are better sources, but you want historic patterns and real trims, not the kind that fit into T Bar drop ceiling systems.
http://www.thetinman.com/styles_turncentury.htm

Then the props have to be spot on, and here's the place we bought DLP hearths and furnishings from for Walt's. Especially the lobby.
http://www.antiquariantraders.com/c-13-architectural.aspx

We hired this company to build the Elevator and Nouveau Hearth at Walt's and produce most of the stained glass windows.
http://www.andythornton.com/en-UK/portfolio/15-themed-venues

OK, I get it now. This explains much of what gets discussed by you and others. Excellent information and quite educational. Thanks.

There is something comedic about your "dilemma". I am laughing thinking about how you must silently suffer constantly seeing stuff that just does not quite fit because of poor design and how you must want to run to a supplier and get a replacement part just to see it done right. Hilarious in a way. The curse of the Imagineer.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There is something comedic about your "dilemma". I am laughing thinking about how you must silently suffer constantly seeing stuff that just does not quite fit because of poor design and how you must want to run to a supplier and get a replacement part just to see it done right. Hilarious in a way. The curse of the Imagineer.

It's officially OCOD, "Obsessive Compulsive Ornamental Disorder".

 

[unkadug]

It's officially OCOD, "Obsessive Compulsive Ornamental Disorder".

:ROFLOL:


That got a good laugh out of me! :wave:

 

[RandySavage]

Agree with the above sentiments... since I started following this thread a couple years ago, my eyes have started to move to the light fixtures, shelving, etc. when at the parks, thinking "I wonder how period-accurate those are." Regarding that Carthay Circle light fixture... here I was thinking to myself, 'what a nice, original/authentic design someone put together' until I clicked on the link.

Still, it's a learning experience I welcome!

***
This shows the actual Carthay Lamps:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6261222632_31dd9ed24c_o.jpg

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Agree with the above sentiments... since I started following this thread a couple years ago, my eyes have started to move to the light fixtures, shelving, etc. when at the parks, thinking "I wonder how period-accurate those are." Regarding that Carthay Circle light fixture... here I was thinking to myself, 'what a nice, original/authentic design someone put together' until I clicked on the link.

Still, it's a learning experience I welcome!

***
This shows the actual Carthay Lamps:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6261222632_31dd9ed24c_o.jpg

They made a good choice. It's a great fixture and in the style of what existed. Thanks for posting that great image too!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

With so many choices in materials like the above examples, how does your team ever as a group, come to a consensus?

Consensus takes too much time. But having said that you have to set a clear direction, so that tone or feel that you are going for edits out lots of options. I usually had to make the final choice as my job was to direct and approve the overall effort. I'd have a pretty good idea of what each store was about so they would have to stand out as their own person, so it did get easier.

 

[KevinYee]

Business writers Pine and Gillmore charted something called the Experience Economy: businesses must orchestrate memorable events for their customers, and that memory itself becomes the product - the "experience". More advanced experience businesses can begin charging for the value of the "transformation" that an experience offers, e.g., as education offerings might do if they were able to participate in the value that is created by the educated individual. This, they argue, is a natural progression in the value added by the business over and above its inputs.

They also wrote a book called Authenticity (2007):

Inundated by fakes and sophisticated counterfeits, people increasingly see the world in terms of real or fake. They would rather buy something real from someone genuine, rather than something fake from some phony. When deciding to buy, consumers judge an offering's (and a company's) authenticity as much as if not more than price, quality, and availability. In Authenticity, James H. Gilmore and B. Joseph Pine II argue that, to trounce rivals, companies must grasp, manage, and excel at rendering authenticity. Through examples from a wide array of industries as well as government, non-profit, education, and religious sectors, the authors show how to manage customers perception of authenticity by:

- Recognizing how businesses fake it
- Appealing to the five different genres of authenticity
- Charting how to be true to self and what you say you are
- Crafting and implementing business strategies for rendering authenticity

Both topics seem relevant to "what makes Disney tick"!