Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

Business writers Pine and Gillmore charted something called the Experience Economy: businesses must orchestrate memorable events for their customers, and that memory itself becomes the product - the "experience". More advanced experience businesses can begin charging for the value of the "transformation" that an experience offers, e.g., as education offerings might do if they were able to participate in the value that is created by the educated individual. This, they argue, is a natural progression in the value added by the business over and above its inputs.

They also wrote a book called Authenticity (2007):

Inundated by fakes and sophisticated counterfeits, people increasingly see the world in terms of real or fake. They would rather buy something real from someone genuine, rather than something fake from some phony. When deciding to buy, consumers judge an offering's (and a company's) authenticity as much as if not more than price, quality, and availability. In Authenticity, James H. Gilmore and B. Joseph Pine II argue that, to trounce rivals, companies must grasp, manage, and excel at rendering authenticity. Through examples from a wide array of industries as well as government, non-profit, education, and religious sectors, the authors show how to manage customers perception of authenticity by:

- Recognizing how businesses fake it
- Appealing to the five different genres of authenticity
- Charting how to be true to self and what you say you are
- Crafting and implementing business strategies for rendering authenticity

Both topics seem relevant to "what makes Disney tick"!

Yes. the question could be that in a business where illusion is the product, what is authentic? Is it reality, or being true and consistent to your promise of illusion? It would seem that, to please it's audience, Disney needs to excel at being "authentically fake".

That term reminds me of Herb Ryman, the great Disney artist telling me my drawings were too specific and detailed. He said that to sell the idea they had to be "specifically vague" emotional pieces of art. Like an impressionist painting. Convey the feeling more than the nuts and bolts so others can see what THEY imagine they see in your idea. I do believe in being very true and authentic in doing period design, as it not only supports the fantasy, but adds an intellectual level that adults sense and appreciate. The SS Columbia and Mark Twain are great examples. You respect them although you are not a maritime engineer. They don't talk down to you and are not kiddie rides. They make the river legitimate in a way that a cartoony "Steamboat Willie" party boat would not. It appeals to your inner logic and is satisfying. They appeal to my OCOD. Both are reduced in scale, but work technically and theatrically. I feel more engaged on the Columbia than on the real Constitution in Boston. That does not mean that I would keep the mantles in the MS Victorian streetlights because the live flame is more kinetic. It is. I did that and got called out by a fan because it was not "period correct" to the fixture in an absolute sense. It is however, in keeping with the time (many gaslights were open flame) and "theatrically and emotionally" correct to communicate the romantic expectation of a gaslight more than the visual of a "glowing sock" that the mantle provides. You have to make those calls.

 

[COProgressFan]

Yes. the question could be that in a business where illusion is the product, what is authentic? Is it reality, or being true and consistent to your promise of illusion? It would seem that, to please it's audience, Disney needs to excel at being "authentically fake".

And all those little details, as you've mentioned (lights, fixtures, metal scrolls attached without modern screws visible, etc), make a huge difference in making the fake (which nearly all of Disney is) seem real. When it's done right, it all seems to be real and natural, when we know on some level it's not.

But the line between real and fake can be blurred. For example, to me, in many ways the Yacht & Beach Club resorts seem more "real" to me than many actual New England seaside resorts (as they capture the overall essence in architecture and design). Having been to a resort like this recently, I remember thinking to myself that the differences between the authentic and the fake really weren't that different at all, especially when considering the ways that older, "authentic" buildings are renovated or modernized over the years, losing that authenticity. I suppose the only major differences that I could see/feel were the fact the authentic really is next to a rocky seashore, salty air and all vs. across from the Swan/Dolphin and Boardwalk.

I guess I'm trying to say the lines get blurred in the "real world" and "Disney" world and its interesting to notice.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

And all those little details, as you've mentioned (lights, fixtures, metal scrolls attached without modern screws visible, etc), make a huge difference in making the fake (which nearly all of Disney is) seem real. When it's done right, it all seems to be real and natural, when we know on some level it's not.

But the line between real and fake can be blurred. For example, to me, in many ways the Yacht & Beach Club resorts seem more "real" to me than many actual New England seaside resorts (as they capture the overall essence in architecture and design). Having been to a resort like this recently, I remember thinking to myself that the differences between the authentic and the fake really weren't that different at all, especially when considering the ways that older, "authentic" buildings are renovated or modernized over the years, losing that authenticity. I suppose the only major differences that I could see/feel were the fact the authentic really is next to a rocky seashore, salty air and all vs. across from the Swan/Dolphin and Boardwalk.

I guess I'm trying to say the lines get blurred in the "real world" and "Disney" world and its interesting to notice.

Well said. I think where the real and the fake become interesting is in our own minds. We may read about a place and see the travel folder version of the destination, only to find it fails to meet our romantic expectations. No one in the real world is worried about putting a big Coke Machine in the hallway of the
newly renovated 1787 Nantucket Country Inn. Track lights and indoor outdoor carpet is in the lobby. Still real and still quaint but you cannot time travel with those kinds of distractions. Where's the old guy in the Pea Coat playing checkers? Sorry. It's just the guy from Papa John's delivering to Room 12.

So. Even though the architecture of the Y&B Club is a bit interpreted and staid, it still works romantically as it's more of the version you were hoping for, and is seamless as to what it sets out to be. It's the version you hoped for more than the reality that bites. It could be said that it authentically your dream!

We went to the Big Island of Hawaii to a really cool Resort that had lots of restored Hawaiian stuff and naturally unspoiled beaches. No contradictions. For me to "time travel", I brought the music from the Columbia (Norman Luboff choir's Songs of the Sea BTW) and read "Captain Blood" (Sabatini's swashbuckling pirate yarn) looking out at the sea. Last year, it was Jack London's tales of the Hawaiian Islands. You can bring media and make your own "world" on the go and that's what I enjoy doing.

 

[Vernonpush]

Well said. I think where the real and the fake become interesting is in our own minds. We may read about a place and see the travel folder version of the destination, only to find it fails to meet our romantic expectations. No one in the real world is worried about putting a big Coke Machine in the hallway of the
newly renovated 1787 Nantucket Country Inn. Track lights and indoor outdoor carpet is in the lobby. Still real and still quaint but you cannot time travel with those kinds of distractions. Where's the old guy in the Pea Coat playing checkers? Sorry. It's just the guy from Papa John's delivering to Room 12.

So. Even though the architecture of the Y&B Club is a bit interpreted and staid, it still works romantically as it's more of the version you were hoping for, and is seamless as to what it sets out to be. It's the version you hoped for more than the reality that bites. It could be said that it authentically your dream!

We went to the Big Island of Hawaii to a really cool Resort that had lots of restored Hawaiian stuff and naturally unspoiled beaches. No contradictions. For me to "time travel", I brought the music from the Columbia (Norman Luboff choir's Songs of the Sea BTW) and read "Captain Blood" (Sabatini's swashbuckling pirate yarn) looking out at the sea. Last year, it was Jack London's tales of the Hawaiian Islands. You can bring media and make your own "world" on the go and that's what I enjoy doing.

Weren't you worried that bringing your own media (music that was not being played on an old Victrola, I'm sure) would be a contradiction to others? Or is that part of creating our own "reality" and we just ignore the contradictions that others bring?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

[/[/B]QUOTE]
Weren't you worried that bringing your own media (music that was not being played on an old Victrola, I'm sure) would be a contradiction to others? Or is that part of creating our own "reality" and we just ignore the contradictions that others bring?[/QUOTE]

LOL. The wax cylinders melt in the sun...IPod and headphones my boy! I ignore the scantily clad bikinis as they interrupt
"The days of Wooden ships and Iron Men"!

 

[bcoachable]

^ And That made me laugh!

 

[Vernonpush]

^ And That made me laugh!

Me too!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Avengers Ride

I'm sure you've all heard that the company announced that there will be an Avenger's Ride. They kind of have to do that given the box office smash that it has been. Poor George Lucas cannot get arrested. First they embrace Cameron, now Marvel.

When you see how well Spiderman and now Transformers have been done as rides and how extreme action is portrayed in those rides, it will be quite a high expectation to now do another genre attraction that will raise the bar even higher. AA's likely won't cut it. A boy's "Avengers" Princess type makeover thing won't either. Thor "Whack a Mole"? No. "World of Color" Marvel version?
Marvel motel? Iron Manterhorn? Not sure. Hopefully it will be in DHS as it needs the draw.

Maybe redo the Indy Stunt Show into Marvel...Lucas will love that.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I'm sure you've all heard that the company announced that there will be an Avenger's Ride. They kind of have to do that given the box office smash that it has been. Poor George Lucas cannot get arrested. First they embrace Cameron, now Marvel.

When you see how well Spiderman and now Transformers have been done as rides and how extreme action is portrayed in those rides, it will be quite a high expectation to now do another genre attraction that will raise the bar even higher. AA's likely won't cut it. A boy's "Avengers" Princess type makeover thing won't either. Thor "Whack a Mole"? No. "World of Color" Marvel version?
Marvel motel? Iron Manterhorn? Not sure. Hopefully it will be in DHS as it needs the draw.

Maybe redo the Indy Stunt Show into Marvel...Lucas will love that.

It sounds like early on it will be doing something quickly to get the characters in the park. I would expect something down the road, perhaps in conjunction with the release of Avengers 2: Legend of Hawkeye's Gold.

Also the contract between Marvel and Universal will prevent them from adding anything to Florida. That would need to be addressed first.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

It sounds like early on it will be doing something quickly to get the characters in the park. I would expect something down the road, perhaps in conjunction with the release of Avengers 2: Legend of Hawkeye's Gold.

Also the contract between Marvel and Universal will prevent them from adding anything to Florida. That would need to be addressed first.

How do we know the details of the contract agreement? Are they online in general form or is your knowledge firsthand? I imagine that Universal has a radius wide agreement or theme park exclusivity from the past.

 

[RSoxNo1]

How do we know the details of the contract agreement? Are they online in general form or is your knowledge firsthand? I imagine that Universal has a radius wide agreement or theme park exclusivity from the past.

It has been widely discussed that Universal has the rights to theme park usage of the characters. Admittedly, I don't know the exact specifics as I've heard 200 miles, 250 miles and East of the Mississippi for the restriction parameters.

The other pieces of information that are out there is that it includes all characters currently in use in signage, rides, and any capacity as well as the associated characters in that character's family. Additionally, the deal apparently exists in perpituity so as long as Universal wants to maintain it, they can.

I hope the public information is incorrect, but it really seems like a negotiation would have to be reached in order for Disney to re-acquire the rights.

 

[coolbeans14]

The contract was actually linked to from a thread here recently.
As far as I could tell, because marvel wasn't used as rides in other universal parks, the only place it can't happen is Florida, with no attractions within 300 miles of universal Orlando.

That leaves it being possible at California, Paris, hong kong, Tokyo or shanghai. Currently there's a rumour that it will be Paris, to be placed in the studios park, replacing rock n roller coaster, the Armageddon attraction and maybe the motors action stunt show. How true this is though, is anyone's guess.

 

[mgf]

SEC Filing

Section in Question:

IV. Exclusivity
B. 1. a. 1. i. East of The Mississippi - any other theme park is limited to using characters not currently being used by MCA at the time such other license is granted. [For purpose of this subsection and subsection iv, a character is “being used by MCA” if (x)__it or another character of the same “family” (e.g., any member of THE FANTASTIC FOUR, THE AVENGERS or villains associated with a hero being used) is more than an incidental element of an attraction, is presented as a costumed character, or is more than an incidental element of the theming of a retail store or food facility; and, (y)__in addition, if such character or another character from the same “family” is an element in any MCA marketing during the previous year. Any character who is only used as a costume character will not be considered to be “being used by MCA” unless it appears as more than an incidental element in MCA’s marketing.]

 

[Eddie Sotto]

SEC Filing

Section in Question:

We do love facts on this thread. Thanks for taking the time to find and post this. Now i have a better understanding of what to expect. So the use of the Avenger's on the sides of the monorail is movie promotion, not a ride. They certainly know how to get around these things. It would be interesting to see how they could get away with creating an "Art of the Avengers" exhibition at the DHS and say it's to promote to DVD or BluRay. that would be considered an attraction, so probably not. It could be outside the park at DTD. Or could they do a Marvel Hotel?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The contract was actually linked to from a thread here recently.
As far as I could tell, because marvel wasn't used as rides in other universal parks, the only place it can't happen is Florida, with no attractions within 300 miles of universal Orlando.

That leaves it being possible at California, Paris, hong kong, Tokyo or shanghai. Currently there's a rumour that it will be Paris, to be placed in the studios park, replacing rock n roller coaster, the Armageddon attraction and maybe the motors action stunt show. How true this is though, is anyone's guess.

Sure. Most likely they'd use the brand where it can help the most.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Progress City video lecture

Really good lecture on Walt and Progress City on Miceage today. Very well done and fun to watch.

http://micechat.com/blogs/samland/3431-walt-disneys-great-big-beautiful-tomorrow.html

 

[TDL]

We do love facts on this thread. Thanks for taking the time to find and post this. Now i have a better understanding of what to expect. So the use of the Avenger's on the sides of the monorail is movie promotion, not a ride. They certainly know how to get around these things. It would be interesting to see how they could get away with creating an "Art of the Avengers" exhibition at the DHS and say it's to promote to DVD or BluRay. that would be considered an attraction, so probably not. It could be outside the park at DTD. Or could they do a Marvel Hotel?

Long time lurker, first time poster for this thread. I've read every post from both threads and I have to say I am very thankful for being able to read your stories and about your experiences Eddie. I also deeply appreciate the opportunity to participate in this discussion with you.

With that in mind: On topic, I have to say I think the idea of a Marvel themed hotel (or group of hotels) seems like a perfect use of those franchises without violating Universal's contracts.

Stark Tower from the recent Avengers film could easily be an actual hotel. Imagine if they put the extra effort in to actually make it feel like you, as a guest at that resort, were Tony Stark. Maybe make everything in the room state of the art gizmo-wise. Perhaps make the Television "assemble" (reveal) itself from a wall with an Iron Man suit style transformation. The possibility is really thrilling to me and would be a perfect way to practically utilize new and breaking technology. Of course it would be a fortune and likely completely unfeasible budget-wise. It's nice to dream though.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Long time lurker, first time poster for this thread. I've read every post from both threads and I have to say I am very thankful for being able to read your stories and about your experiences Eddie. I also deeply appreciate the opportunity to participate in this discussion with you.

With that in mind: On topic, I have to say I think the idea of a Marvel themed hotel (or group of hotels) seems like a perfect use of those franchises without violating Universal's contracts.

Stark Tower from the recent Avengers film could easily be an actual hotel. Imagine if they put the extra effort in to actually make it feel like you, as a guest at that resort, were Tony Stark. Maybe make everything in the room state of the art gizmo-wise. Perhaps make the Television "assemble" (reveal) itself from a wall with an Iron Man suit style transformation. The possibility is really thrilling to me and would be a perfect way to practically utilize new and breaking technology. Of course it would be a fortune and likely completely unfeasible budget-wise. It's nice to dream though.

I'm sure they are looking into some of those kinds of ideas. Forget the budget, it's more important to come up with something people will show up for, then worry about cost. Keep up the good Imagineering and maybe you'll end up designing it someday! Welcome to the boards.

 

[bcoachable]

Eddie-
I started reading the first "take on the parks" thread, and found a blog where you or someone stated that you helped with some pilots for Mtv and Showtime...
I have always thought Walt did a great job in his initial hiring/selecting some of his movie people to be in the circle to help with the parks... and it seems that your career did this in reverse somewhat! Do you mind sharing what projects have/are you contributing in?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Tv

Eddie-
I started reading the first "take on the parks" thread, and found a blog where you or someone stated that you helped with some pilots for Mtv and Showtime...
I have always thought Walt did a great job in his initial hiring/selecting some of his movie people to be in the circle to help with the parks... and it seems that your career did this in reverse somewhat! Do you mind sharing what projects have/are you contributing in?

It was the reverse. The deal was that I had to come up with ten original show concepts a week. So I had what you would call a development deal at VH1. I was retained for a certain amount of money and had an office there for about a year. We tested many ideas, some of which made air but had little to do with what I pitched, so after a while I felt dissatisfied with developing things that I was not pleased with.

Prior to that, I was involved in designing the opening credits (Skyscraper with a Roller Coaster in it) for ABC's "One Saturday Morning" kid's format, then I had sold an comedy idea to ABC (Buddy Sci-Fi Cop show) and it was being developed with Avenet/Kerner Productions (George of the Jungle) but after a year did not make pilot and lost out to Millionaire with Regis. The same year had developed and shot tests with Showtime on a twisted adult Puppet Soap Opera that was along the lines of "Dynasty meets Beatrix Potter". That was fun because the sets were all virtual which was new ground 12 years ago. nothing looked like it. Very Tim Burton/David Lynch in feel with Disneyesque virtual sets that I was providing the design for. Didn't make air as they fired the exec that loved it and threw all the shows in development out. Typical. Same thing happened on a News Satire (Hannity and Colmes takeoff) project we sold (to CNN of all networks) with full sized human styled puppets as well called "The Washington Burnes Report". CNN saw the Bunny thing and how unique it looked and wanted something similar. Yahoo felt the same way and almost sold them something for online. At Disney, was involved in proposing to ABC News some serious format suggestions that eventually were integrated. This was during the construction of the Times Square Studios developed for Good Morning America, this was something proposed while at WDI. That warped studio building in Times Square (facade is a giant LED screen) was my last project before quitting. Later produced 14 tests and directed a pilot for a "Google" sponsored News show for the launch of Current TV. That innovation project was a breakthrough (news stories based on how you search) and got a broadcast design award.

So it was an interesting time. A few hits, mostly misses, but that's the average on Hollywood. I learned a lot and was shocked at how many projects got piloted, made air, were optioned and developed for someone with no experience in that tough business. Made lots of mistakes and learned on the job. I ended up doing fun concept work for "Pimp my Ride" as a creative consultant, designing some of the cars they did at GAS. There are still projects i'm involved in but at a slower pace, as the design work I'm more known for has had us booked for the last five years. Looking forward to doing some media in the future.