DTD: The hits just keep on coming...

[jt04]

I concur. PI needs to make a comeback, preferably sooner than later. :hammer:

WARNING: Must be read with an open mind. No emotions allowed.

But do you really think that people went to WDW for PI? I know some did when it was new and a small percentage of those kept going back because they liked it.

But I know for a fact that many long time WDW vistors were so perplexed by the concept and how it was such a radical departure from what WDW and TWDC had been that they never set foot on property again. And we are not talking fundamentalist necessarily but those that were offended by Disney glamorizing drinking. Not passing judgement on either the PI fans or those offended by it. Just saying it cost Disney far more than anyone can ever quantify. And it could even be argued that when PI opened was just about the exact time if not THE exact time standards at WDW began to decline. Coincidence? I don't think so.

And when PI is officially declared dead and WDW decides to cater to families again, then you will see the beginning of the WDW renaissance!:sohappy:

Don't shoot the messenger. :lookaroun

 

[tirian]

No, not everyone wins.
I don't see the win in having go leave Disney property in order to enjoy PI style entertainment.

I hate to agree with the PR line, but DTD did legitimately need to expand its family-friendly areas. The Marketplace was consistently crowded, and PI was a ghost town.

But the AC and even the CW could have stayed! They would have been great anchors for a revitalized PI—especially the AC.

 

[JWG]

No, not everyone wins.
I don't see the win in having go leave Disney property in order to enjoy PI style entertainment.

Nor should you have to leave the property to enjoy night life (especially in the off season with restricted park hours). There are plenty of adult and semi-adult visitors (high school and up) who are looking for things to do after 6pm. More so than walk through World of Disney or go to a movie.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

WARNING: Must be read with an open mind. No emotions allowed.

But do you really think that people went to WDW for PI? I know some did when it was new and a small percentage of those kept going back because they liked it.

But I know for a fact that many long time WDW vistors were so perplexed by the concept and how it was such a radical departure from what WDW and TWDC had been that they never set foot on property again. And we are not talking fundamentalist necessarily but those that were offended by Disney glamorizing drinking. Not passing judgement on either the PI fans or those offended by it. Just saying it cost Disney far more than anyone can ever quantify. And it could even be argued that when PI opened was just about the exact time if not THE exact time standards at WDW began to decline. Coincidence? I don't think so.

And when PI is officially declared dead and WDW decides to cater to families again, then you will see the beginning of the WDW renaissance!:sohappy:

Don't shoot the messenger. :lookaroun

No emotion, but that sounds a lot more like opinion than fact. And possibly one slanted to your own beliefs.

As my grandfather always said, never trust a man who doesnt drink. :lookaroun

 

[tirian]

But I know for a fact that many long time WDW vistors were so perplexed by the concept and how it was such a radical departure from what WDW and TWDC had been that they never set foot on property again. And we are not talking fundamentalist necessarily but those that were offended by Disney glamorizing drinking. Not passing judgement on either the PI fans or those offended by it. Just saying it cost Disney far more than anyone can ever quantify. And it could even be argued that when PI opened was just about the exact time if not THE exact time standards at WDW began to decline. Coincidence? I don't think so.

And when PI is officially declared dead and WDW decides to cater to families again, then you will see the beginning of the WDW renaissance!:sohappy:

WDW declined because Eisner got cold feet after EuroDisney failed and refused to invest in the American theme parks. Operations focused on what they could cut instead of how they could continue setting the bar higher than before.

Disney animation declined because Eisner blamed hand-drawn animation for his hand-picked exec's lack of storytelling abilities.

Basically, every time the man and his minions made a bad decision, they blamed the product instead of acknowledging their own mistakes. The company grew larger as the executive mindset got smaller, and—well, we got the wand, the BAH, and the elitist "Disney is for Wal-Mart shoppers/If it's good enough for Six Flags" speech. (BTW, how do those Wal-Mart shoppers afford the Grand and the Poly?)

 

[tirian]

That said—
Many families were put off by PI's scene, and Disney knew it. However, PI attracted enough people to outweigh the complaints. Disney could still control the alcohol and keep the PI craziness within reasonable limits. But PI was built with the 80s/early 90s club culture in mind, and Disney couldn't keep up with the new movements without completely abandoning its family-friendly image. The dance clubs didn't attract people anymore, period.

...the DANCE CLUBS didn't attract people...

...that has nothing to do with the ridiculous decision to close the very popular AC.

 

[jt04]

Nor should you have to leave the property to enjoy night life (especially in the off season with restricted park hours). There are plenty of adult and semi-adult visitors (high school and up) who are looking for things to do after 6pm. More so than walk through World of Disney or go to a movie.

Oh I think you will see plenty of options offered on property for evening entertainment. They just won't revolve around the glamorization of drinking which the "high school" crowd can't legally do anyway.

As for 21 and up, there are a ton of clubs/lounges on property. They are even opening one on the land formerly known as PI this month. I don't see the problem. :shrug:

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Oh I think you will see plenty of options offered on property for evening entertainment. They just won't revolve around the glamorization of drinking which the "high school" crowd can't legally do anyway.

As for 21 and up, there are a ton of clubs/lounges on property. They are even opening one on the land formerly known as PI this month. I don't see the problem. :shrug:

Even by my standards you are now talking large volumes of excrement. You don't see the problem that much I think we can agree on.

 

[CaptainMichael]

As my grandfather always said, never trust a man who doesnt drink. :lookaroun

Smart man.

 

[jt04]

That said—
Many families were put off by PI's scene, and Disney knew it. However, PI attracted enough people to outweigh the complaints. Disney could still control the alcohol and keep the PI craziness within reasonable limits. But PI was built with the 80s/early 90s club culture in mind, and Disney couldn't keep up with the new movements without completely abandoning its family-friendly image. The dance clubs didn't attract people anymore, period.

...the DANCE CLUBS didn't attract people...

...that has nothing to do with the ridiculous decision to close the very popular AC.

I absolutely do not believe the statement I bolded. There was a huge but silent group that did not complain a peep. They just faded away. And WDW still has not gotten them back. Trust me, I know what I am saying.

 

[chaggy102]

Another thing that just absolutely killed PI was that it wasn't advertised as well as it was in the past. When it first opened there was a media blitz and so many things to draw people there. I remember a clip that was mentioned on this site when Family Madders filmed a segment at Motions.

Today you could ask a guest who is going to Disney for the first time and they know what Epcot is, they know what the Magic Kingdom is, they have an idea what Downtown Disney is but if you would have asked them like this time last year ok do you know what 8-Trak's is, do you know what the AC or CW is? A lot wouldn't know.

So does it make it a failure, only because it relied a lot on locals and really didn't get the word out the final few years. Citywalk you are basically thrown into as soon as you enter Universal as you need to walk right through it to get from park to park. PI and DTD are out of the way.

I as much as many would love to see a relaunch of AC, but if it did happen there would have to be a ton of advertising because there were nights when the club was bare, and all of PI was a ghost town. I just hope something happens soon, one way or another.

Kungaloosh Adventurers.

 

[CaptainMichael]

I absolutely do not believe the statement I bolded. There was a huge but silent group that did not complain a peep. They just faded away. And WDW still has not gotten them back. Trust me, I know what I am saying.

Personally, I don't want them at Walt Disney World anyway if they are that closed minded. Should we shut down World Showcase too? I bet more alcohol is consumed there on a daily basis than at PI.

I bet these are the same people that....:zipit: I'm not gonna say anymore.

 

[jt04]

No emotion, but that sounds a lot more like opinion than fact. And possibly one slanted to your own beliefs.

As my grandfather always said, never trust a man who doesnt drink. :lookaroun

I knew I would get that. Not true except to say Disney is at it's best when providing family entertainment. When they forget that, they fail in ways they can't conceieve of. That is why PI was a mistake from day 1. Poor idea on top of a poor business model. Destined to fail. Eisner's folly. But then Eisner does not drink.


:ROFLOL:

 

[CaptainMichael]

Another thing that just absolutely killed PI was that it wasn't advertised as well as it was in the past. When it first opened there was a media blitz and so many things to draw people there. I remember a clip that was mentioned on this site when Family Madders filmed a segment at Motions.

Today you could ask a guest who is going to Disney for the first time and they know what Epcot is, they know what the Magic Kingdom is, they have an idea what Downtown Disney is but if you would have asked them like this time last year ok do you know what 8-Trak's is, do you know what the AC or CW is? A lot wouldn't know.

So does it make it a failure, only because it relied a lot on locals and really didn't get the word out the final few years. Citywalk you are basically thrown into as soon as you enter Universal as you need to walk right through it to get from park to park. PI and DTD are out of the way.

I as much as many would love to see a relaunch of AC, but if it did happen there would have to be a ton of advertising because there were nights when the club was bare, and all of PI was a ghost town. I just hope something happens soon, one way or another.

Kungaloosh Adventurers.

They could easily add a segment about the AC to the planning DVD and resort TV. It wouldn't have to be too long, but just add a short expanation to the DTD segment (beyond the generic montage they used to play) A sign inside the busses wouldn't hurt either.

 

[jt04]

Even by my standards you are now talking large volumes of excrement. You don't see the problem that much I think we can agree on.

It would help if you would actually explain what you mean.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

WARNING: Must be read with an open mind. No emotions allowed.

But do you really think that people went to WDW for PI? I know some did when it was new and a small percentage of those kept going back because they liked it.

But I know for a fact that many long time WDW visitors were so perplexed by the concept and how it was such a radical departure from what WDW and TWDC had been that they never set foot on property again. And we are not talking fundamentalist necessarily but those that were offended by Disney glamorizing drinking. Not passing judgment on either the PI fans or those offended by it. Just saying it cost Disney far more than anyone can ever quantify. And it could even be argued that when PI opened was just about the exact time if not THE exact time standards at WDW began to decline. Coincidence? I don't think so.

And when PI is officially declared dead and WDW decides to cater to families again, then you will see the beginning of the WDW renaissance!:sohappy:

Don't shoot the messenger. :lookaroun

The only messenger you are is one of stupidity. Just how many people is "may people"? What is "the WDW renaissance"? You use buzz words and catch phrases to spew out nothing and ignore well thought out posts by individuals who are both insiders and people with some good critical thinking.

BTW I'd like to hear your concept on how The Neverland Club (or other resort childrens clubs) relates to families when it is only for kids ages 4-12. Surely they are just as bad as PI because they are limited in thier demographic and are located througout the property and not just in one spot.

Tirian, great points. However what I find ironic is the "80s dance image" is coming back. Not just because of those who lived in the 80s and look back on it for nostalgic reasons but new "kids" who are gobbling up that decade and new inventions of it (like the upcoming remake of Footlose). That culture will surely come back as those kids and teens grow up, but Disney will not be able to support them because of short sighted thikning.

 

[JWG]

Oh I think you will see plenty of options offered on property for evening entertainment. They just won't revolve around the glamorization of drinking which the "high school" crowd can't legally do anyway.

As for 21 and up, there are a ton of clubs/lounges on property. They are even opening one on the land formerly known as PI this month. I don't see the problem. :shrug:

I'll remain cautiously optimistic about paragraph #1. I don't see great things coming soon, but I'm not by any means an insider of any sort. But, if I were a 16-20 year old (which I haven't been for some time so maybe I'm out of touch), I'd be hard pressed to feel there's exciting things to do after 7pm if the parks have closed. Overpriced minigolf, a movie and Disney merchandise. I've outgrown the "arcade" if the hotel has one at this point, ESPN Club is not the same as a true ESPN Zone. Disney Quest's model doesn't allow for evening visits of 1-3 hours currently.

Even the cruise line gets it more than the parks by having a 13-17 year old club on board. It replaced the ESPN Club, so I wasn't thrilled, but that's beside the point.

As for their being a tons of clubs/lounges on property, outside of the parks, they're mostly confined to a resort which getting between resorts is by no stretch easy if you don't have a car. I guess you could say the same for City Walk.

Maybe I just need to read some "Disney after Dark" tour book. :shrug:

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I knew I would get that. Not true except to say Disney is at it's best when providing family entertainment. When they forget that, they fail in ways they can't conceieve of. That is why PI was a mistake from day 1. Poor idea on top of a poor business model. Destined to fail. Eisner's folly. But then Eisner does not drink.


:ROFLOL:

shouldn't that be think?

This is only my opinion but I think that the perception of a "kids" holiday destination will ultimately be damaging to Disney. A visit to UK discussion boards will show you that many with kids over 8 dont see it as a must do on a Florida trip, and that view is being entrenched by replies to questions about trip planning.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

No matter how profitable the nightclub business is, PI hadn't turned a profit in years. It seemed busy on certain days, especially Thursday nights, but it was overrun with CP kids and freaky locals who thought the actors at the AC and CW were their personal court jesters.

Back in the 90s, PI was immensely popular and was not, as some have claimed, "Eisner's Folly." In fact, PI originally featured a roller rink for the family—not every family has three screaming brats in overpriced princess dresses. The roller rink closed because the clubs were extremely popular.

You have to remember, this was during the late 80s and early-mid 90s, when the dance scene was popular for everyone. Look at the awfully cheesy music videos from the time—that was considered cutting-edge and cool! Nowadays, clubbing in the U.S. mostly means "teenagers and niche demographics (like Goths)" unless you live in NYC, LA, or Miami. Disney tried attracting the teens by removing the ticket booths, and we all know how well that worked.

IMO, the original PI worked for three reasons:
1. Disney opened it at a time when the Touchstone label was highly valuable. Roger Rabbit, The Rocketeer, D--- Tracy, and other films gave Disney a multifaceted public image that wasn't all about little kids. Disney wasn't making direct-to-video cheapquals and Mickey Mouse wasn't just the emcee for a preschool clubhouse.
2. Disney was still publicizing WDW as a resort for everyone, not just a castle for kids. EPCOT Center and the D-MGM Studios were highly advertised, and the MK wasn't character-centric like it is now (only FL really featured fairy tales).
3. The nightclub culture covered a huge demographic who wanted to dance like Michael, sing like Whitney, and flash their leg warmers, neon shirts, and ozone-depleting hairspray.

IMO, PI failed because...
1. Eisner eventually made Disney a cash-hungry, bloated corporation that forgot about imagination and creativity after TLM, BATB, Aladdin, and TLK made bucket-loads of money. Under his last few years, Disney films became synonymous with cheap, direct-to-video trash suitable only for babysitting.

2. WDW is advertised as a place where preschoolers' dreams come true, and you can choke on the magic as the magical lands of a magical world whisk you away into magic for a magical time. We know WDW provides more than that, but during the 80s and 90s, everyone knew it. Disney advertised the MK, Epcot, the Studios, golfing, and PI. Now they advertise the castle, because that's how they can make money off the BB Boutique and dress sales.

3. The club culture shifted towards niche demographics. Music videos aren't popular (look at MTV) and the idea of being a dancing/singing/video star for a night doesn't attract people. We've shifted away from the "let's all dance" culture of the 80s and 90s to one of "let's watch the kids on AI and the pros on 'Dancing with the Stars.'" Meanwhile, although groups of people do still enjoy the club scene, most of them aren't interested in a Disney version. Disney refused to reinvest and make PI attractive toward the new club scene, and PI failed.

Great post, Tirian, and I believe it to be dead on.

 

[chaggy102]

They could easily add a segment about the AC to the planning DVD and resort TV. It wouldn't have to be too long, but just add a short expanation to the DTD segment (beyond the generic montage they used to play) A sign inside the busses wouldn't hurt either.

And that was the thing was that I remember a planning video in '96 when they showed each club and gave a quick snapshot of what it was. Even had Hathaway giving a Kungaloosh. You have to spend money to make money and without advertising there was no way it was going to survive.