Downtown Disney rumor

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Anyone recall the plan to KEEP Pleasure Island and link Marketplace and Westside with a shopping boulevard? You know, the more expensive option? I talked about it a few years back?

This plan is so very much like that. Amazing whats possible when push comes to shove.
 

Horizons78

Grade "A" Funny...
Anyone recall the plan to KEEP Pleasure Island and link Marketplace and Westside with a shopping boulevard? You know, the more expensive option? I talked about it a few years back?

This plan is so very much like that. Amazing whats possible when push comes to shove.

And that is what makes the whole thing even more of a "head banging against a wall" situation. The only thing that has really changed is that we've lost PI in the process.

While we are all no doubt thrilled to the bone at the prospect of a generic shopping mall / outside party operated restaurant boulevard, does anybody know if the plans will affect The Empress Lilly? You know, this wee little paddlewheel boat suffering like a tiny Tibet under tyrannical alien occupation of Fulton's Crap House?

I would LOVE to think the Lilly could return to her original splendor. I think the odds are terrible, but I'd love to see it happen.
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
For better or for worse, no change from what I can see.
Meh, for worse then. The occupation continues. Free Lilly!


I liked the area best when it was just the Village. All they needed was to build that proposed New Orleans area next to the Lilly and it would've been perfect. Beautiful, sophisticated, Southern. Oh, the dreams one has a of a more elegant WDW, of a more civilised age!

village3.jpg




Also (I would bring it up, wouldn't I?), a paddlewheel steamboat has a paddlewheel and smokestacks! Those cynical bastards are going to spend a billion dollar for more generic shops and restaurants and bars ('Las Vegas lite'), but won't spend pocket change to make a paddlewheel boat resemble a paddlewheel boat.

riverboat.jpg
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Meh, for worse then. The occupation continues. Free Lilly!


I liked the area best when it was just the Village. All they needed was to build that proposed New Orleans area next to the Lilly and it would've been perfect. Beautiful, sophisticated, Southern. Oh, the dreams one has a of a more elegant WDW, of a more civilised age!

village3.jpg




Also, a paddlewheel boat has a paddle wheel and smokestacks, you cynical bastards! They'll spend a billion dollar for more generic shops and restaurants (Las Vegas lite), but won't spend pocket change to make a paddlewheel boat resemble a paddle wheel boat.

riverboat.jpg

Whats particularly sickening about the lack of the smokestacks and paddle wheel is all they had to do was write maintaining them into the lease as a condition and make Levy pay for it. Wasnt the lease up for renewal about now, or did it already pass?
 

JEANYLASER

Well-Known Member
Disney Springs / Downtown Disney Update - Planning - (2/18/13) ParkRumors posted a great scoop over the weekend, uncovering a little something filed under the project name “The BVD Corridor Stormwater Project”, which really seems to be Disney’s new masterplan to redevelop the former Pleasure Island area. The old “Hyperion Wharf” idea has floundered and sunk, but this new plan will change the face of Downtown Disney forever.
According to the report, Downtown Disney will be re-branded as “Disney Springs”, which will then feature six themed areas: The Gateway, The Town Center, The Springs, The Landing and the two areas we know well: The West Side and The Village Marketplace.
Gateway will be the entrance area into this new shopping complex, which will feature access and parking in an ample 5 story parking garage that will take over the parking lot just in front of the World of Disney Store and extend down towards the intersection where the Hess gas station sits. The inner lot parking lot area, often used for Valet parking will be developed to become part of this new development. The cast member building and facilities that will be displaced by this will be moved into the tiny lot that is essentially behind the Team Mickey and Once Upon a Toy store area.
Park your car in the new structure and you’ll wandering into The Town Center, an all new themed retail area built on top of former parking lot space. Beyond here is The Springs, which will have shops along the now themed waterway that already exists, running from the old West Side entrance to Pleasure Island, past Planet Hollywood and exit again into the lake behind the steamship that houses Fulton’s. Oh… speaking of Planet Hollywood, the plan has filled in that portion of the waterway and relabeled the Planet Hollywood building as “The Observatory” which doesn’t bode well for the future of one of the last PH’s in existence. The many bridges that exist to cross over the waterway will remain, along with a few new bridges added to taking guests into the former Pleasure Island area that will now be rethemed as “The Landing”, which will be the center for an array of dining and drinking establishments.
The West Side will remain mostly unchanged, while is appears that the old bus drop off area at the Marketplace will be developed into a new retail pathway that will feature a couple of large new retail store buildings, leading to a new bridge that will cross over into the Saratoga Springs Resort.
While this looks to be a much grander and better plan than the old Hyperion Wharf proposal, I do have one important question. For years… decades even, Downtown Disney has been begging for a parking structure to help them handle the crowds during the most busy times of year. Previous Disney management was only willing to fund such a project IF they were willing to start charging for parking at Downtown Disney. Obviously no one wants to see paid parking come to Downtown Disney, which is why we have never seen a parking structure added… until now.
So will Walt Disney World start to ask people to pay to park at Downtown Disney / Disney Springs from now on? Maybe they will only charge you for Premium Parking if you want in the structure and keep the surface lots free? Or hopefully, they will see the added benefit of having the structure as a replacement for the lost surface lots, which will result is increased income from retail sales and leases from outside operators. Lets hope for the later, because no one wants to pay for parking at Downtown Disney.

this is from Screamscape!
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I think there is a place for a smaller show like the Electrical Water Pageant at DTD. Or putting in some dancing fountains in the water.

I agree with this. World of Color is way too ambitious and expensive for a free show at DTD, but something more simplistic like the fountain show at Bellagio in Vegas might be doable. It would still draw crowds to DTD as an attraction (it doesn't take much to attract the masses) and would give people a reason to hang around for a drink or two waiting for the next show to start.
 

articos

Well-Known Member
Meh, for worse then. The occupation continues. Free Lilly!


I liked the area best when it was just the Village. All they needed was to build that proposed New Orleans area next to the Lilly and it would've been perfect. Beautiful, sophisticated, Southern. Oh, the dreams one has a of a more elegant WDW, of a more civilised age!

village3.jpg




Also (I would bring it up, wouldn't I?), a paddlewheel boat has a paddlewheel and smokestacks! Those cynical bastards are going to spend a billion dollar for more generic shops and restaurants and bars ('Las Vegas lite'), but won't spend pocket change to make a paddlewheel boat resemble a paddlewheel boat.

riverboat.jpg
No major changes. On the positive side, she's not going anywhere.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Whats particularly sickening about the lack of the smokestacks and paddle wheel is all they had to do was write maintaining them into the lease as a condition and make Levy pay for it.
Quite so!

Levy (the outside party that operates Fulton's Crap House) has no incentive to properly maintain The Empress Lilly, or to spend their own money into strengthening the theme of WDW. Why would they? They already pay through the nose specifically for the privilege of drawing on WDW's investment in theme.

At the side of WDW, the unit 'third party f&b' only has an incentive to generate contracts as lucrative as possible. This unit generates money, it does not spend. Least of all on such intangibles as thematic integrity and beautification. Who would be the fool of a middle manager who decreases this unit's profitability? 'Ladies and gentlemen of my promotion comittee, yes the numbers under my tenure look dreadful, but realise that we now do have a revolving paddlewheel!'. You'll get tarred and feathered, your career relegated to managing a popcorn cart on MS.


Neither side has any incentive to spend on WDW's thematic integrity. Both sides exist to exploit WDW's beauty, 'magic', and theme. Fair enough for Levy. But not so for WDW.
Sadly, this is why WDW is ran into the ground (creativily, not financially), not because of any particular incompetence, but simply by virtue of the fragmented structure of its organisation and the demands for short-term results.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
Darn you... I looked at your picture and then started reading that thread thinking I was back on this one. Didn't realize what I had done until after I read this post and got all excited:
***WARNING: THIS POST IS FROM FOUR YEARS AGO!***
Got this in an update from the yahoo group... Didn't realize it was in the "save the Adv Club" thread...




No warrantees implied or given on this one. Simply a copy/paste from another forum.

Enjoy:

Big announcement from mark kohl

----------------------------------------------------------

My DW and I were on the Disney Magic the last 7 days and our guest speaker was Mark Kohl, Director of Resort Development, Walt Disney Imagineering.

Just some quick background....

The two lectures explored his career and the current projects going on throughout the world. There was nothing "NEW" in the presentations and during the Q&A he was unable to speak to the future projects at the resort. He is the big cheese of Downtown Disney and when asked about the Adventures Club he was as tight lipped as possible.

Here is a little gist of this part of the Q&A...

Women in the back: (Yelling) ADVENTURERs CLUB!!!!!! (No question, just statement)

MK: (Laughing, with a big grin on his face) Yes, the Adventurers Club. All I can say is there is going to be a huge announcement in 30 to 60 days. (Still Grinning)

Man in the back: What is the Adventurer's Club?

MK: My favorite club in Downtown Disney.

Women in the back: It looks like you could open the doors and walk right in, nothing has changed since it closed.

MK: Yep, All I can say is that there is going to be an announcement soon. (Still Grinning - Almost Uncontrollably)

End Scene
Made my heart sad. :(
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
Quite so!

Levy (the outside party that operates Fulton's Crap House) has no incentive to properly maintain The Empress Lilly, or to spend their own money into strengthening the theme of WDW. Why would they? They already pay through the nose specifically for the privilege of drawing on WDW's investment in theme.

At the side of WDW, the unit 'third party f&b' only has an incentive to generate contracts as lucrative as possible. This unit generates money, it does not spend. Least of all on such intangibles as thematic integrity and beautification. Who would be the fool of a middle manager who decreases this unit's profitability? 'Ladies and gentlemen of my promotion comittee, yes the numbers under my tenure look dreadful, but realise that we now do have a revolving paddlewheel!'. You'll get tarred and feathered, your career relegated to managing a popcorn cart on MS.


Neither side has any incentive to spend on WDW's thematic integrity. Both sides exist to exploit WDW's beauty, 'magic', and theme. Fair enough for Levy. But not so for WDW.
Sadly, this is why WDW is ran into the ground (creativily, not financially), not because of any particular incompetence, but simply by virtue of the fragmented structure of its organisation and the demands for short-term results.
Just out of curiosity...WHO removed the paddle wheel and smokestacks? Levy? It would have cost them money to do so...I can't believe that they didn't contact their LANDLORD to get them to do something about it.

If DISNEY removed them, then ...well it just reinforces the idea that management should be tarred and feathered
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity...WHO removed the paddle wheel and smokestacks? Levy? It would have cost them money to do so...I can't believe that they didn't contact their LANDLORD to get them to do something about it.

If DISNEY removed them, then ...well it just reinforces the idea that management should be tarred and feathered
The vandalisation happened when The Empress Lilly was turned into Fulton's. She received a full refurb, was stripped to the bone, inside and out. The smokestacks and wheel and other nautical elements had to be taken out anyway. But instead of fixing them up, repainting them, re-installing them, they were simply taken off and never heard from again.

I believe Fulton/Levy and Disney simply stared at each other with a stupid look on their faces, expecting the other party to be responsible for this upkeep, but then never acting on that expectation. Probably because neither felt legally secure enough to challenge the issue in court. Or wished to jeopardise the business relationship with the other. Or cared enough - WDW had its contract with the outside party, the outside party had a WDW that supplied the tourist masses, who kept flocking in droves despite any decline by degrees thrown at them.


Needless to say, there was enough money and will to install enormous neon signs on all three sides. On a 19th century paddlewheel boat! Elegance, theme and uniqueness squandered for something you can visit in Detroit's shadier neighbourhoods.
 

articos

Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity...WHO removed the paddle wheel and smokestacks? Levy? It would have cost them money to do so...I can't believe that they didn't contact their LANDLORD to get them to do something about it.

If DISNEY removed them, then ...well it just reinforces the idea that management should be tarred and feathered
Yes, Disney did during the 90s refurb to turn her from the Queen she was into the crab shack she is today. She's still owned by Disney, under a 20 year lease to Levy that expires in 2 years. During the refurb/changeover from the Empress to Fulton's, they found the stacks were rusted through and had to come down, as they were a hazard. The paddle wheel was completely rotted through - it pretty much collapsed on itself as soon as they tried to remove it. Lack of maintenance, per usual. It was deemed not worth the cost to rebuild, since they were not part of the profit of the restaurant. (Sense a theme here?) It's not just the stacks and the wheel though, the Empress was really gorgeous through and through, and there's pretty much nothing left - all done by Disney during the gut job. They didn't even leave any of her badging, identifying her as named for Walt's Lillian.

I'm hopeful she will be restored somewhat in her next phase. It was the Pleasure Island redo that essentially gutted her - waiting to see what happens when the contract is up.
 

articos

Well-Known Member
The vandalisation happened when The Empress Lilly was turned into Fulton's. She received a full refurb, was stripped to the bone, inside and out. The smokestacks and wheel and other nautical elements had to be taken out anyway. But instead of fixing them up, repainting them, re-installing them, they were simply taken off and never heard from again.

I believe Fulton/Levy and Disney simply stared at each other with a stupid look on their faces, expecting the other party to be responsible for this upkeep, but then never acting on that expectation. Probably because neither felt legally secure enough to challenge the issue in court. Or wished to jeopardise the business relationship with the other. Or cared enough - WDW had its contract with the outside party, the outside party had a WDW that supplied the tourist masses, who kept flocking in droves despite any decline by degrees thrown at them.


Needless to say, there was enough money and will to install enormous neon signs on all three sides. On a 19th century paddlewheel boat! Elegance, theme and uniqueness squandered for something you can visit in Detroit's shadier neighbourhoods.
It was Disney's fault for the lack of upkeep, and it happened prior to the Levy deal. No one at DTD really knew they had to do that kind of maintenance on her, I think, or they did and just expected it would be addressed and no one communicated. There wasn't budget to rebuild the wheel and the stacks as part of the changeover to the restaurant for Levy, which was already planned, so they just went ahead without. Levy came in after the damage was done, so they weren't responsible for the look, nor do they really care. As long as they have a building to serve food in, they know people will show up, so they could care less if it has a wheel or not. That should be Disney with the show quality concerns - they should be the ones looking at it and saying "we need to fix this" but there was no one on the project who cared enough to fight.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Yay! Lots of Empress Lilly talk!
party17.gif


Well, as there should be, she is after all the crown jewel of the Lake Buena Vista area. Indeed, perhaps the crowning achievement of all of classic Walt Disney World.


Did we mention the vandalisation of the interior yet?

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