Done they were. Lied they did.

[LSLS]

I’m not questioning evidence of a decline. I’m saying the evidence that it was caused by The Last Jedi is questionable.

Boy you are talking a out a LARGE coincidence if not. The trailer views sell me more on it than anything. I still put everything on the top management. I liked some of his ideas and directions, but he needed someone that reigned him in, and someone that had a vision of where the entire story was going. I'm still sticking with erasure on where the failure lies.

You can claim confirmation bias, but honestly I dont have anything against him. I'm really not as far out on him as a lot. Heck I'll straight say while I thought jedi was mediocre due to some of my issues, I wouldnt say it was the worst by a long shot. But he is a lightning rod right now in star wars, so I just csnt see it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I’m not questioning evidence of a decline. I’m saying the evidence that it was caused by The Last Jedi is questionable.

It’s pretty compelling. I can appreciate benefit of the doubt...but at some point it is what it is.

I would say it’s clearly a mixture of things...but last Johnson would also clearly be a catalyst/accelerant of decline

 

[Gomer]

Boy you are talking a out a LARGE coincidence if not. The trailer views sell me more on it than anything. I still put everything on the top management. I liked some of his ideas and directions, but he needed someone that reigned him in, and someone that had a vision of where the entire story was going. I'm still sticking with erasure on where the failure lies.

You can claim confirmation bias, but honestly I dont have anything against him. I'm really not as far out on him as a lot. Heck I'll straight say while I thought jedi was mediocre due to some of my issues, I wouldnt say it was the worst by a long shot. But he is a lightning rod right now in star wars, so I just csnt see it.

By confirmation bias I'm intending to say that any argument that claims to know the cause conveniently leaves out contradictory evidence. Because it is impossible with the information we do have to come to any valid conclusion.

Yes, the chronological story of TLJ to Solo to cancellation, to trailer views paints a story. Just as the argument based on Box office drop for TLJ over TFA vs the previous parts 1 and 2 of each trilogy all being in line, combined with Cinemascore and critics reviews as well as overall box office conveniently ignore the timing of Solo's under-performance and paint their own story.

I mean if you look at it without any context, Solo's performance would be the biggest obvious starting point for any decline. But no one goes with that argument because it doesn't serve either the haters or lovers of TLJ.

You can make an argument that the presence of the MCU has dominated the cultural landscape for younger viewers and that SW hasn't succeeded in converting new fans or regions with their new films and is pulling on a slowly less enthusiastic nostalgia based older audience after the moment of the comeback had passed.

My point is there are lots of potential causes. Anyone who claims to know exactly what caused it is fooling themselves. We can speculate and have our pet theories. But until we see the results of the next release (or more) there isn't much to go on except for information that is tainted by our own biases.

 

[Gomer]

It’s pretty compelling. I can appreciate benefit of the doubt...but at some point it is what it is.

I would say it’s clearly a mixture of things...but last Johnson would also clearly be a catalyst/accelerant of decline

Compelling but not conclusive.

I'm still of the mind that the number of fans put off by TLJ isn't a number big enough to have that sort of impact at the box office. I just don't think there are that many super fans. And even among us, we're divided so its not a full on revolt.

But I'm open to be proven wrong. Won't change my opinions on the movie. But if it does turn out to be the case that Star Wars fans really hated the movie that much that it's bringing down the franchise, then by all means it is their responsibility start catering to those people. And sadly, it probably means that this is no longer a franchise aimed at me. But I hope that isn't the case.

 

[Tony Perkis]

Like??

And as far as “the company” goes (nametag alert - cringe)....do you believe that Iger wanted to can Kennedy for abrams last year? Just out of curiosity.

As you seem like the right person to ask this: tell me why I should like last Jedi? As in what about it resonated with you?

I’ve asked that since 12/17/17 here and nobody can make a case? A lot of mindless Disney defending and patronizing...after the initial week at the box office which proved absolutely nothing.

And patronization = nothing...as is well established.

Settle down a bit. Nobody is trying to say you should like the film, just like we aren’t making the assumption that you’re trying to tell us we shouldn’t like the film.

 

[Mike S]

This is reportedly still happening just as a streaming series.

Ooooooooooooooooo

 

[Tony Perkis]

Compelling but not conclusive.

I'm still of the mind that the number of fans put off by TLJ isn't a number big enough to have that sort of impact at the box office. I just don't think there are that many super fans. And even among us, we're divided so its not a full on revolt.

But I'm open to be proven wrong. Won't change my opinions on the movie. But if it does turn out to be the case that Star Wars fans really hated the movie that much that it's bringing down the franchise, then by all means it is their responsibility start catering to those people. And sadly, it probably means that this is no longer a franchise aimed at me. But I hope that isn't the case.

Using TLJ as a scapegoat for Solo’s weak box office performance doesn’t hold much water in my eyes. We survived the backlash of the prequels, each which did very well at the box office and didn’t kill interest in Lucasfilm’s TV properties.

The advertising campaign was awful. They had one specific job: sell the new actor as Han Solo, because the biggest hang up was that there would be no Harrison Ford. The marketing campaign did as much as it could to hide Alden Ehrenreich, especially speaking. I think this, compounded with less that stellar reviews, are the biggest reasons why it failed.

 

[Mike S]

By confirmation bias I'm intending to say that any argument that claims to know the cause conveniently leaves out contradictory evidence. Because it is impossible with the information we do have to come to any valid conclusion.

Yes, the chronological story of TLJ to Solo to cancellation, to trailer views paints a story. Just as the argument based on Box office drop for TLJ over TFA vs the previous parts 1 and 2 of each trilogy all being in line, combined with Cinemascore and critics reviews as well as overall box office conveniently ignore the timing of Solo's under-performance and paint their own story.

I mean if you look at it without any context, Solo's performance would be the biggest obvious starting point for any decline. But no one goes with that argument because it doesn't serve either the haters or lovers of TLJ.

You can make an argument that the presence of the MCU has dominated the cultural landscape for younger viewers and that SW hasn't succeeded in converting new fans or regions with their new films and is pulling on a slowly less enthusiastic nostalgia based older audience after the moment of the comeback had passed.

My point is there are lots of potential causes. Anyone who claims to know exactly what caused it is fooling themselves. We can speculate and have our pet theories. But until we see the results of the next release (or more) there isn't much to go on except for information that is tainted by our own biases.

When talking the main Episodes the two movies with the biggest drop off from their predecessors are Episodes 2 & 8 arguably the most contentious with the fans with 8 taking the cake for just how large of a drop off it was.

Star Wars Franchise Box Office History - The Numbers

Star Wars franchise box office earnings

the-numbers.com

ESB actually wasn’t that bad of a drop, RotJ went higher, and RotS did great.

 

[erasure fan1]

I’m not questioning evidence of a decline. I’m saying the evidence that it was caused by The Last Jedi is questionable.

Solos failure was a whirlwind of terrible decisions, and last jedi was part of it. It wasn’t by any stretch the main reason, but it was a reason. Unfortunately there will never be a way to really determine how much of an effect it had.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Settle down a bit. Nobody is trying to say you should like the film, just like we aren’t making the assumption that you’re trying to tell us we shouldn’t like the film.

Nobody is not “settled down”...you’re trying to read emotion when there isn’t any, Dad

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Using TLJ as a scapegoat for Solo’s weak box office performance doesn’t hold much water in my eyes. We survived the backlash of the prequels, each which did very well at the box office and didn’t kill interest in Lucasfilm’s TV properties.

The advertising campaign was awful. They had one specific job: sell the new actor as Han Solo, because the biggest hang up was that there would be no Harrison Ford. The marketing campaign did as much as it could to hide Alden Ehrenreich, especially speaking. I think this, compounded with less that stellar reviews, are the biggest reasons why it failed.

I don’t think anyone is calling that the “sole” reason.

We can all write an essay on the state of Star Wars...but this is Informal. Nothing definitive.

I for one think it’s about 5 identifiable things that have gotten Star Wars to where we are.

 

[Tony Perkis]

When talking the main Episodes the two movies with the biggest drop off from their predecessors are Episodes 2 & 8 arguably the most contentious with the fans with 8 taking the cake for just how large of a drop off it was.

Star Wars Franchise Box Office History - The Numbers

Star Wars franchise box office earnings

the-numbers.com

ESB actually wasn’t that bad of a drop, RotJ went higher, and RotS did great.

The real curious case is why there was such a drop off in the international numbers for TLJ, because its domestic total is still outstanding.

Additionally, holding TLJ to the standard of TFA’s domestic total is a bit unfair. TFA’s domestic gross is completely unprecedented and almost unmatchable. It has nearly $200m more than the second highest domestic gross total.

TLJ still made $620m in the USA and is 6th all time in that regard.

 

[LSLS]

Compelling but not conclusive.

I'm still of the mind that the number of fans put off by TLJ isn't a number big enough to have that sort of impact at the box office. I just don't think there are that many super fans. And even among us, we're divided so its not a full on revolt.

But I'm open to be proven wrong. Won't change my opinions on the movie. But if it does turn out to be the case that Star Wars fans really hated the movie that much that it's bringing down the franchise, then by all means it is their responsibility start catering to those people. And sadly, it probably means that this is no longer a franchise aimed at me. But I hope that isn't the case.

Yeah I do think we need some context. I'm not saying solo was only because of jedi, nor do I think 9 will be anywhere close to the numbers of solo. I mean, a significant impact still makes a billion dollars. I just think coming off force awakens, and ending the whole saga, it should be looking at endgame numbers. Its failure has a litany of reasons, jedi being a part, that I argue (with others) all comes back to how it has been managed. I think where he was going could have really worked if it fit together better. I dont think his style was the part people didnt like, I think it was more how the story fit, but I'm also not a movie aficionado. I've said for a while, give me a movie that is entertaining throughout and I'll like it. That's all I really look for.

 

[xdan0920]

Using TLJ as a scapegoat for Solo’s weak box office performance doesn’t hold much water in my eyes. We survived the backlash of the prequels, each which did very well at the box office and didn’t kill interest in Lucasfilm’s TV properties.

The advertising campaign was awful. They had one specific job: sell the new actor as Han Solo, because the biggest hang up was that there would be no Harrison Ford. The marketing campaign did as much as it could to hide Alden Ehrenreich, especially speaking. I think this, compounded with less that stellar reviews, are the biggest reasons why it failed.

I’m just one casual Star Wars fan, but I didn’t see solo bc of the taste TLJ left in my mouth. That’s literally the only reason I didn’t bother to see Solo. Because of Johnson.

 

[Tony Perkis]

I’m just one casual Star Wars fan, but I didn’t see solo bc of the taste TLJ left in my mouth. That’s literally the only reason I didn’t bother to see Solo. Because of Johnson.

That’s fine, but that’s just a personal anecdote. There are a myriad of various reasons why any single person would or would not see a movie.

I’m more interested in larger trends.

 

[Mike S]

The real curious case is why there was such a drop off in the international numbers for TLJ, because its domestic total is still outstanding.

Additionally, holding TLJ to the standard of TFA’s domestic total is a bit unfair. TFA’s domestic gross is completely unprecedented and almost unmatchable. It has nearly $200m more than the second highest domestic gross total.

TLJ still made $620m in the USA and is 6th all time in that regard.

I think it’s as simple as international audiences didn’t enjoy it or care to see it as much. Occam’s razor and all that. Some people may think I’m crazy but I’m sure with the right story this trilogy could’ve pulled unbelievable numbers that kept getting better. Endgame helped convince me of this. A $700 million drop like that is unheard of, at least I think.

 

[Tony Perkis]

I think it’s as simple as international audiences didn’t enjoy it or care to see it as much. Occam’s razor and all that. Some people may think I’m crazy but I’m sure with the right story this trilogy could’ve pulled unbelievable numbers that kept getting better. Endgame helped convince me of this. A$700 million drop like that is unheard of, at least I think.

Again, I think holding TLJ to the standard of TFA is a bit unfair, because the circumstances around TFA were incredibly unique to that specific film, which enabled it to basically capture lightening in a bottle.

Examples:

1) The first Star Wars film in theatres in 12 years.
2) The first Star Wars film in 33 years to look like “Star Wars”, which obviously means the original trilogy.
3) One of the strongest campaigns I’ve ever seen. Abrams gifted the marketing department a goldmine with that “Chewie, we’re home” moment

I don’t think any SW film, even if one was made that surpassed ESB in quality, would be able to replicate the level of success of TFA. That was a truly special moment in film, and we just experienced another one with Endgame, but those are exceptions to the rule, not the standard.

 

[Mike S]

Again, I think holding TLJ to the standard of TFA is a bit unfair, because the circumstances around TFA were incredibly unique to that specific film, which enabled it to basically capture lightening in a bottle.

Examples:

1) The first Star Wars film in theatres in 12 years.
2) The first Star Wars film in 33 years to look like “Star Wars”, which obviously means the original trilogy.
3) One of the strongest campaigns I’ve ever seen. Abrams gifted the marketing department a goldmine with that “Chewie, we’re home” moment

I don’t think any SW film, even if one was made that surpassed ESB in quality, would be able to replicate the level of success of TFA. That was a truly special moment in film, and we just experienced another one with Endgame, but those are exceptions to the rule, not the standard.

I see your point but I meant how we went from Infinity War to Endgame with pretty much the whole audience staying intact for the follow up. Star Wars could’ve done it imo. It definitely has the characters to have pulled it off. Or at least I would’ve loved to see it happen.

 

[Tony Perkis]

I see your point but I meant how we went from Infinity War to Endgame with pretty much the whole audience staying intact for the follow up. Star Wars could’ve done it imo. It definitely has the characters to have pulled it off. Or at least I would’ve loved to see it happen.

But even then, not the same thing. TLJ is probably more akin to Age of Ultron in terms of importance in the series and performance.

Marvel billed Infinity War and Endgame as the end of an era. I have my issues with Infinity War, but they absolutely nailed the ending, which boded well for Endgame.

The only way any Star Wars film (going forward) would have hit Endgame sort of numbers is if TLJ ended in a cliffhanger, all 3 of the main cast were still alive, and Lucasfilm advertised the next film as the last time we would see the main three.

 

[Hotamber]

Who says the new trilogy will not introduce time travel and just replay scenes from the old Skywalker movies like Endgame? The third Death Star will take all current and former Rebels lightspeed time traveling to stop it for an epic battle. Hollywood loves trends and Endgame made an easy one to follow that actually makes the less popular movies revelent and required watching for the whole story. Deaged cgi Harrison Ford could be in Star Wars Endgame or they can just replay old clips with new characters. Everyone loves a fan service clip show