Do you think that Disney world will reclose its gates due to the rising number of COVID cases in Florida and around the country?

[DisneyDebRob]

A majority of the posts in this thread are nothing more than an appeal to pity. And the evidence on all sides of this argument is negated by other evidence. "that expert is wrong because this expert said so". "That expert was wrong, but now he/she is right".

Everyone has a chart. Everyone has a graph. Reminds me of the “ you get a car and you get a car”. There is something for anyone for whatever you believe. Follow the science, it always leads to the truth. May take awhile but always gets there.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I still say the cure can't be worse than the disease. I still say that the measures that were taken and are still being taken in some cases are taking away moments, memories, enjoyment and quality of life from the 99%+ of the population that wouldn't die from COVID-19 even if every single person in the world contracted it.

Yes, it's sad that 130,000 people have died in the USA from this disease. Yes, it's sad that thousands more will probably die from it. However, it's also sad that tens of millions of people have postponed weddings, haven't been able to attend funerals (no matter the cause of death) and haven't been able to have birthday celebrations for their children.

It's sad that elementary school children have had to do distance learning that many college students struggle to get a real education out of. It's really sad that special needs children like my autistic nephew have missed out on months of education and therapy because he gets absolutely nothing from staring at a teacher on a screen.

Not to mention billions of people missing out on months of normal life and enjoyment of recreation. Civilization has progressed to the point that the point of life isn't just to survive and procreate like animals. Adults have probably an average of 50 years (18-68) where they are fully healthy and able to fully enjoy life. Well, close to 1% of everybody's quality adult life has been taken away by trying to hide from a virus where over 80% of the fatalities are over 65 years old, the average age of a fatality is somewhere around 80 and a huge percentage of the fatalities are elderly people who live in nursing homes.

Contrary to the image we'd all like to have, most nursing home residents aren't happily knitting, enjoying visits from their grandchildren and playing bridge all day with their friends. People who need to live in a nursing home are normally very old and have several medical conditions. While "all life is precious," I would feel differently if children and young adults had a high mortality rate like they did with the Spanish Flu.

And, yes, I strongly believe that my rights should not be restricted because I might get infected with a virus and then possibly spread it to somebody else who could get very sick or die or spread it to another person. I'm fine with social distancing requirements and even the probably mostly pointless "face covering" (I didn't say "mask" on purpose) requirements. I'm not OK with lockdowns and forced closures of "non-essential" businesses. There are many small businesses that people worked hard for their entire lives to build that were put out of business by the measures taken and will never return.

These are still my opinions and beliefs even with the current spike in Florida and the knowledge of the number of cases and trends in the US. There's not point in arguing about it because you have your beliefs and I have mine and neither are going to change their minds. However, I do take offense to your attitude that your opinion is the correct one and anybody that feels differently isn't one of the "intelligent people" and their thought process is dangerous.

I can’t fault you for your opinion.

Where I do agree is I also lament the loss of time. Anecdotal to Disney - there is a lot of dvc discussion that they’re inability to handle the shutdown and basically pushing it off onto their members without any extra effort or costs is “fine”.
Just go later - book a bigger room in 2022.
Wrong. I bought a service...but that service is a lot about time. I don’t want two years of disruption as my kids get older due to lack of inventory.
My opinion...just like yours.



But hey...magic kingdom will be open. I saw the CM videos of the last couple of days and it’s the definition of “eerie”...looks awkward and unnatural. The ambience was always the point of the design. Not sure what the point is if you take it out?

 

[Casper Gutman]

Exactly. But most people arent ready for that discussion yet.

So... I want to be very clear here... your well reasoned position is that the economy would have continued to boom while hundreds of thousands were lost? While the hospitals were overwhelmed?

You believe that, as outbreaks raged through staff and clients at businesses, schools... they would have taken no action?

This is the comforting nonsense of conspiracy theories. The real world is big and scary and random and we struggle, often unsuccessfully, to control it. It’s a lot more comforting to imagine a small group of people making bad or deliberately malicious opinions then to acknowledge the chaos. Then we can be mad at those bad people, which feels nice, and if we can stop them, everything will be perfect and the world won’t be random!

 

[Heppenheimer]

You are basically saying that it is OK to ruin my life (and billions of other lives) for many months (or years for some) to extend the lives of some percentage of vulnerable people. Your opinion is based on the belief (conscious or not) that being alive and living life are the same thing. To me, life is supposed to be about more than eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing, defecating, eliminating and procreating. That's the life of a wild animal, not (in my opinion) the life of a civilized human.

Fine, if that's your opinion. But people in a vulnerable state might not share your opinion. Is it up to you to put their life in danger because of your belief on what constitutes a life worth living?

 

[Heppenheimer]

I just spoke with a doctor in depth yesterday about hydroxichloriquine and confirmed it absolutely works. The president of Brazil is taking it for his infection. You do you.

Well, it works great for rheumatoid arthritis, in some people. And it still has a limited use in malaria, although most strands now are resistant to it.

But COVID-19? Nope, it has failed the best trials for both treatment and prevention.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Well, it works great for rheumatoid arthritis, in some people. And it still has a limited use in malaria, although most strands now are resistant to it.

But COVID-19? Nope, it has failed the best trials for both treatment and prevention.

What’s ironic is that it’s been found in study after study to have more risks than inconsistent benefits.

The “cure” is worse than the “disease”

 

[Casper Gutman]

I didn't say "masks" were mostly pointless. I said "face coverings" and I made the distinction on purpose. People using randomly selected pieces of fabric that have no specifications to them are likely pointless. Wearing a piece of my thin T-shirt over my nose and mouth that barely restricts anything is likely pointless.

The cause of all of those hardships and reductions of quality of life is not the virus, it is the reaction to the virus. When you say that my view is not valid, you are actually making my argument in a way. You are saying that my view is not valid that some lives are less valuable. However, by implementing the measures that were implemented, the lives of the vulnerable are being treated as MORE VALUABLE than the lives of the people that aren't vulnerable.

You are basically saying that it is OK to ruin my life (and billions of other lives) for many months (or years for some) to extend the lives of some percentage of vulnerable people. Your opinion is based on the belief (conscious or not) that being alive and living life are the same thing. To me, life is supposed to be about more than eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing, defecating, eliminating and procreating. That's the life of a wild animal, not (in my opinion) the life of a civilized human.

I'm not offended by somebody with a different view. I'm offended by that particular poster's attitude about their opinion.

At some point, all you can do is look at an opinion and shake your head. The towering arrogance and selfishness of assuming that you can judge the value of a life, that you can tell others what the real quality of their existence is. Historically, such beliefs have ALWAYS led to good outcomes. I suspect you would have a very different opinion if folks wanted to put a value on your quality of life and the lives of those you love. I suspect you would get quite upset indeed.

It’s worth remembering which posters saw fit to like this post.

 

[havoc315]

So if a MD actually said this he/she is basing this on a personal experience and not science which is really disappointing from an MD. With this in mind I can tell you I personally saw pts taking HCQ and having major cardiac issues with prolonged Q-T, to the point the study was stopped due to the harm it caused. Granted this was pts in ICU, I have no personal experience in it given to pts "early" in the disease.

While most doctors are intelligent, objective and science based, there is a significant minority of morons.

As to HCQ, I spoke with a physician from a major NYC hospital involved in the largest HCQ study. Being intelligent and objective, he wasn’t about to make absolutist statements. But he did indicate they were seeing no benefit at all in hospitalized patients. He could provide no definite opinion as to whether it could provide benefit in an “early Covid” patient but he doubted it — there is no scientific basis to believe it would provide benefit. No more reason to believe HCQ would have benefit than aspirin or bubblegum.

The good news is there are some therapies, including Remdesivir, which provide some benefit. And protocols are improving, increasing survival rates. With better treatments, mortality rates will decline.

 

[carolina_yankee]

Random thoughts based on the last few pages of posts:

Tragedies are tragedies because they cause loss. Catastrophes are catastrophes because they destroy things. There is no way to escape loss and destruction in this pandemic. In the end, the "cure" could be as catastrophic, or even more catastrophic, than the disease. However, we don't know that. We do know that people are dying in significant and unique numbers (though some dispute even that). So, absent evidence to the contrary, any decision that saves lives is probably the right decision. I can't fathom arguing otherwise, but that's because I believe in the value of life. That's a personal value statement. Others may believe economic well-being is more important.

Faith is belief in things not seen. When I read "I believe it's true" I see "but there is no evidence that it's true." I remember in grad school getting dropped a letter grad anytime I used the word "believe" instead of "think" in a paper, even if I showed the evidence. Science is absolutely not about belief, but about what is evidenced. I'm much more comfortable making decisions that affect the lives of others on evidence rather than belief.

An example: Florida's extension of the quarantine of the Tri-State area is based on belief (cultural/political dogmas, most likely), not science, and is wholly without merit due to lack of evidence and inconsistent application. The Tri-State area quarantine of Florida is based on evidence - set standards that, if met, will result in the quarantine being lifted. Florida's quarantine will be lifted, presumably, when . . . Well, there's no way to predict that because it's based on whim.

Nobody in their right mind is going to hold an opinion they believe, think, or know to be wrong, so of course everybody thinks their opinions are right. Presumably they will weigh the evidence presented in any discussion to determine if they need to revise their opinions.

Reading these threads is very interesting. I oddly learn a bit as well as come away deeply disturbed.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So... I want to be very clear here... your well reasoned position is that the economy would have continued to boom while hundreds of thousands were lost? While the hospitals were overwhelmed?

It’s amazing how the timeline keeps being rewritten to ignore what was happening before government imposed restrictions. We were already saw travel drop off. We saw people start staying home. In my area restaurants closed their dining rooms before being ordered and many that are not a nationally managed chain remain closed. We’ve seen essential businesses have to shut down because they lack healthy staff to stay open.

 

[Casper Gutman]

It’s amazing how the timeline keeps being rewritten to ignore what was happening before government imposed restrictions. We were already saw travel drop off. We saw people start staying home. In my area restaurants closed their dining rooms before being ordered and many that are not a nationally managed chain remain closed. We’ve seen essential businesses have to shut down because they lack healthy staff to stay open.

This can’t be stated enough. To use a relevant example, WDW shut down entirely by choice, not because it was ordered to do so.

 

[Touchdown]

I also take exception to the belief that those advocating for more restrictions aren’t suffering. I’ve canceled 2 WDW trips, a Smoky Mtn trip, a trip to Cedar Point/Kings Island, a massive road trip to the East Coast that would have included the Smokies, Blue Ridge Pkwy, DC, a bunch of PA theme parks, Philly, NYC and Toronto, and a Williamsburg trip thus far and expect to cancel more. It es me off how much time I’ve sat around at home doing nothing.

Of course that hasn’t been the worst part, my parents live in the same town as me, I went 2 months without seeing them except via FaceTime and 6 ft away in a driveway. I did not meet my new nephew until he was 3 months old even though he lives only 6 hours away, I’ve only seen my niece and other nephew once since March.

Im not at all happy with having to do this and frankly it greatly upsets me because there is a bunch of people who refuse to do this that I’m going to have to continue this longer. If we all could have just stayed closed through May and agreed to wear masks most likely life could have returned to near normal by now just like Europe but nope, it was too hard for some people.

I know this is really going to upset some of you but if you’re going to accuse my side of not suffering through this then I’m going to accuse your side of being selfish and the cause of our prolonged suffering.

 

[Andrew C]

I also take exception to the belief that those advocating for more restrictions aren’t suffering. I’ve canceled 2 WDW trips, a Smoky Mtn trip, a trip to Cedar Point/Kings Island, a massive road trip to the East Coast that would have included the Smokies, Blue Ridge Pkwy, DC, a bunch of PA theme parks, Philly, NYC and Toronto, and a Williamsburg trip thus far and expect to cancel more. It ****es me off how much time I’ve sat around at home doing nothing.

Of course that hasn’t been the worst part, my parents live in the same town as me, I went 2 months without seeing them except via FaceTime and 6 ft away in a driveway. I did not meet my new nephew until he was 3 months old even though he lives only 6 hours away, I’ve only seen my niece and other nephew once since March.

Im not at all happy with having to do this and frankly it greatly upsets me because there is a bunch of people who refuse to do this that I’m going to have to continue this longer. If we all could have just stayed closed through May and agreed to wear masks most likely life could have returned to near normal by now just like Europe but nope, it was too hard for some people.

I know this is really going to upset some of you but if you’re going to accuse my side of not suffering through this then I’m going to accuse your side of being selfish and the cause of our prolonged suffering.

Somewhat of a side note but also related. Most have suffered and/or made sacrifices. We should be quick to remember that when we want to bash whole populations or communities as selfish.

 

[havoc315]

I didn't say "masks" were mostly pointless. I said "face coverings" and I made the distinction on purpose. People using randomly selected pieces of fabric that have no specifications to them are likely pointless. Wearing a piece of my thin T-shirt over my nose and mouth that barely restricts anything is likely pointless.

Well, the science disagrees with you. ANY face covering will reduce transmission. Even a shoddy face covering that is only 20% effective, is still 20% effective.
Anything that reduces viral spread is not "pointless."

Still Confused About Masks? Hereâs the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

The Real Reason to Wear a Mask

Much of the confusion around masks stems from the conflation of two very different uses.

www.theatlantic.com

The cause of all of those hardships and reductions of quality of life is not the virus, it is the reaction to the virus. When you say that my view is not valid, you are actually making my argument in a way. You are saying that my view is not valid that some lives are less valuable. However, by implementing the measures that were implemented, the lives of the vulnerable are being treated as MORE VALUABLE than the lives of the people that aren't vulnerable.

1. Let's be clear... We are ALL vulnerable. Just some of us are much more vulnerable than others.
2. Unless you are a hermit who happens to be young and in perfect health, who has no friends, co-workers, family.... We ALL have friends, family and co-workers who have varying degrees of vulnerability.
3. Beyond "death," lots of "low risk" individuals are becoming extremely sick with Covid, knocking them down for weeks with severe illness. And with potentially very very serious long term side effects.
4. So viral spread left unimpeded.... maybe you don't care if several of your relatives and co-workers die. and maybe you don't care as many businesses are unable to function because so many employees are out sick... Maybe you don't care if you get seriously ill, restricted to your bed for a month, and then with neurological damage for the rest of your life... and you don't care that the hospitals get so overwhelmed, that people start dying from routine things like appendicitis because the hospitals can't handle all the patients....

But it's pretty clear that if the virus was allowed to spread unimpeded... we are ALL vulnerable to the consequences.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Somewhat of a side note but also related. Most have suffered and/or made sacrifices. We should be quick to remember that when we want to bash whole populations or communities as selfish.

Some, a lot more then others and still trying to do the right thing. But agreed, most have suffered or made some sort of sacrifice. It’s sad but I think some of those sacrifices were taken because they had to, as we can see now with the amount of cases on the rise feeling they sacrificed enough.

 

[Andrew C]

Well, the science disagrees with you. ANY face covering will reduce transmission. Even a shoddy face covering that is only 20% effective, is still 20% effective.
Anything that reduces viral spread is not "pointless."

Still Confused About Masks? Hereâs the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

The Real Reason to Wear a Mask

Much of the confusion around masks stems from the conflation of two very different uses.

www.theatlantic.com

1. Let's be clear... We are ALL vulnerable. Just some of us are much more vulnerable than others.
2. Unless you are a hermit who happens to be young and in perfect health, who has no friends, co-workers, family.... We ALL have friends, family and co-workers who have varying degrees of vulnerability.
3. Beyond "death," lots of "low risk" individuals are becoming extremely sick with Covid, knocking them down for weeks with severe illness. And with potentially very very serious long term side effects.
4. So viral spread left unimpeded.... maybe you don't care if several of your relatives and co-workers die. and maybe you don't care as many businesses are unable to function because so many employees are out sick... Maybe you don't care if you get seriously ill, restricted to your bed for a month, and then with neurological damage for the rest of your life... and you don't care that the hospitals get so overwhelmed, that people start dying from routine things like appendicitis because the hospitals can't handle all the patients....

But it's pretty clear that if the virus was allowed to spread unimpeded... we are ALL vulnerable to the consequences.

They probably shouldn’t have lied to us early on when they said masks were ineffective and not to use them. And no, I’m not buying that it took time for them to figure out they were. Whatever their motivations were (saving enough masks for medical personnel maybe), this is a good way to lose credibility from the get go.

 

[Casper Gutman]

They probably shouldn’t have lied to us early on when they said masks were ineffective and not to use them. And no, I’m not buying that it took time for them to figure out they were. Whatever their motivations were (saving enough masks for medical personnel maybe), this is a good way to lose credibility from the get go.

Yup, this seems to have been a big mistake.

But we all know to wear masks now, right? Great!

 

[Parker in NYC]

Yup, this seems to have been a big mistake.

But we all know to wear masks now, right? Great!

Well, some of us.

 

[Monorail_Orange]

Mine also. Just started it again 2 days ago, episode 10,1st season. Just popping in here before watching one more. It’s funny to see a rule being thrown around here when you just shut the tv off watching it. Easy transition.

Must be something in the water...I recently started a cover-to-cover rewatch of DS9 as well. I'm in the middle of Season 2. Great show.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I also take exception to the belief that those advocating for more restrictions aren’t suffering. I’ve canceled 2 WDW trips, a Smoky Mtn trip, a trip to Cedar Point/Kings Island, a massive road trip to the East Coast that would have included the Smokies, Blue Ridge Pkwy, DC, a bunch of PA theme parks, Philly, NYC and Toronto, and a Williamsburg trip thus far and expect to cancel more. It ****es me off how much time I’ve sat around at home doing nothing.

Of course that hasn’t been the worst part, my parents live in the same town as me, I went 2 months without seeing them except via FaceTime and 6 ft away in a driveway. I did not meet my new nephew until he was 3 months old even though he lives only 6 hours away, I’ve only seen my niece and other nephew once since March.

Im not at all happy with having to do this and frankly it greatly upsets me because there is a bunch of people who refuse to do this that I’m going to have to continue this longer. If we all could have just stayed closed through May and agreed to wear masks most likely life could have returned to near normal by now just like Europe but nope, it was too hard for some people.

I know this is really going to upset some of you but if you’re going to accuse my side of not suffering through this then I’m going to accuse your side of being selfish and the cause of our prolonged suffering.

It’s purely an affront to suggest that anyone who values expert advice and for a broad, unified public policy is not sacrificing things themselves.

Just plain stupid actually. Anyone saying “we got open up the economy...cause I can’t do what I want!!!” is pure immaturity.

Dress it up by claiming to be a “true capitalist”...or a “debt hawk”...”constitutional advocate for the inalienable right to sit at a bar or go to Olive Garden”...or whatever nonsense. But this is what it is.

And we get back to what originally and still drives a lot of this under the surface: I WANT MY DISNEY!

Newsflash: we all want it. Every single one of us. But we all can put on the big boy/girl pants and wait in line.

It sucks...but not as soul crushing as it’s made out to be. A lot of the narrative is pure manipulation tactics for personal gain as well...but again that’s out of bounds.