Disney(World) vs. Disney(land)?

[WDW1974]

Agreed ... but unfortunately, I see no end in sight, because people have already made these choices with their wallets.

A lot of the homogenization going on isn't because people are speaking with their wallets, though ... it's because people are not being given a choice.

When Walmart puts everyone out of business, what choice do you have?
When every mall has been taken over by Federated, what choice do you have?
When Starbucks puts the mom and pop coffee shops out of business, what choice do you have?

I'll always pay more for quality, but I'm not allowed to many times today because companies have made the decisions for me.

 

[WDW1974]

I'd forgotten about the GM pull-out; that was a big piece of the problem, to be sure. But Pressler wasn't about to make up that money any other way.

Plus, it's just fun for us old-timers to be able to blame Pressler for something. And Cynthia too. I almost miss those kids. Almost.

Paul was actually a nice man on a personal level. He was just clueless about the job he was in. That got compounded when he moved from DL to head of all P&R. ... But he was considerably nicer on a human level than many of the execs there now.

Cynthia was a classic phoney. I still recall the first time I was introduced to her and feeling that way as she gently stroked my arm (a classic habit of hers).

They were the perfect 1990s execs ... unfortunately, that model hasn't been thrown away, just updated a bit.

 

[WDW1974]

In ten years, will we be able to do the same for Meg, Phil, and the rest of the Good Ole' Boys n Girls?

I hope so, but I have fears ... I wake up in cold sweats seeing WDW Prez Danny Cockerell addressing fans at the D23 event that they're holding instead of acknowledging WDW's 50th!

 

[WDW1974]

Here's an example that sums up the problem with TDO and how they are choosing to do business;

This is a personal story but really isn't meant to be about me but more about how they run things ... (I'll try and be as succinct as possible) ...

During college and for about five years after I tried to get a job in the marketing department at WDW. I sent at least a couple resumes every month for any job posting that I either met or exceeded the education AND experience requirements. In those roughly 7 years and (using rough math) somewhere between 160-200 job applications not once did I get a follow up question or call. Please do not misunderstand this to mean I think they should have hired me (this isn't a boo hoo me story) BUT I think that in all that time (and they have records of how much you apply) someone that displays an obvious passion for the product in addition to meeting or exceeding all the requirements deserves at least ONE conversation.

So what did I do? Well, about 6 years ago I crafted an email that basically said (in very short) that "I think it's extremely short sighted and dismissive to not even have one conversation with someone who has applied as much, has the passion, drive, determination in conjunction with the education and experience to boot. Furthermore, if this message had been sent to Walt he would have appreciated the straight talk and probably would have said, 'Hire him!'" Again I should state I do not think they should have hired me, that is not my complaint, my point is they never even talked to me. A conversation should have happened. Especially in the position I am now I see the value of hiring people who have obvious passion for the product. (Granted I know the majority of people who apply there have the passion despite the fact that TDO management seems to lack the passion but I digress). So I went on Hoovers and got all the email addresses of all the people I think should read this email ... Meg, Phillipe, etc ... and I sent it, again not to get hired but in an effort to enact positive change. Basically, "hey, your criteria is flawed and you are potentially missing out on great employees."

A week later I got a call from an executive recruiter who basically said and again paraphrasing, "Yes your passion is evident, yes you have more than enough education, and while we appreciate that you have worked for Fortune 100 and 500 companies you haven't worked for like Coke or Pepsi so we won't ever talk to you."

I, of course said that that doesn't make sense. I know you need to have some criteria to manage the probably 1,000s of applications but come on, Fortunate 100 and 500 companies should be part of the criteria. Especially, considering it takes very little to market Coke or Pepsi because they are already ingrained into our culture ... the recruiter said and again paraphrasing, "We aren't looking for people to be imaginative."

I believe my personal experience is a perfect example of TDO's problem as a whole, they aren't looking for imagination ... they aren't looking for creativity ... they aren't even looking in the right places ...

It's all about what's the easiest, cheapest, and quickest fix ... and the people running the show at TDO don't care.

Compare that with how John is at TDA ... very different.

Thanks for the story. That sounds like a lot of what I have heard from others. Of course, Disney always wants to say they hire the best and brightest, but my experience has been it depends on what school you went to, what internships you had with the company (the CP means NOTHING), what your family background is and even, yes, what you're willing to do for a really good job.

But what you say illustrates just what's wrong with the entire way WDW Co conducts its business. It is so opposite what common sense tells you is right and ... UGH!!!! ...

 

[CinematicFusion]

Looks like Avatar land at animal kingdom will go down the same path as bald mountain and fire mountain

from ign...
Remember back in June when James Cameron announced that he would be shooting three Avatar sequels simultaneously? Well, now it seems that the filmmaker may have been getting a little ahead of himself.

Indie Wire reports that Avatar 4 will not be a part of Cameron's back-to-back film shoot, according to producer Jon Landau. Additionally, it is still uncertain when production for Avatar 2 and Avatar 3 will begin as the former is currently slated for release no earlier than 2015.

The delays carry over into Cameron's World of Avatar attraction at Disney's Animal Kingdom, which was announced around this time last year. Due to creative differences between Cameron and Disney's Imagineer development team, it seems as though we'll be waiting even longer on that project as well.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Looks like Avatar land at animal kingdom will go down the same path as bald mountain and fire mountain

from ign...
Remember back in June when James Cameron announced that he would be shooting three Avatar sequels simultaneously? Well, now it seems that the filmmaker may have been getting a little ahead of himself.

Indie Wire reports that Avatar 4 will not be a part of Cameron's back-to-back film shoot, according to producer Jon Landau. Additionally, it is still uncertain when production for Avatar 2 and Avatar 3 will begin as the former is currently slated for release no earlier than 2015.

The delays carry over into Cameron's World of Avatar attraction at Disney's Animal Kingdom, which was announced around this time last year. Due to creative differences between Cameron and Disney's Imagineer development team, it seems as though we'll be waiting even longer on that project as well.

I heard from a friend that a bus driver told him the creative difference has to do with what pattern will be displayed on napkins and cups in Pandoraland.....

 

[Jim Possible]

Thanks for the story. That sounds like a lot of what I have heard from others. Of course, Disney always wants to say they hire the best and brightest, but my experience has been it depends on what school you went to, what internships you had with the company (the CP means NOTHING), what your family background is and even, yes, what you're willing to do for a really good job.

But what you say illustrates just what's wrong with the entire way WDW Co conducts its business. It is so opposite what common sense tells you is right and ... UGH!!!! ...

Carl Barks was a farmer turned (self taught) artist.

I'm sure many people here don't have the slightest clue who Barks was (Google him). But he was awesome.

As a freelancer who has done work on licensed Disney stuff, I've been tempted to apply for work at Disney proper on more than one occasion. But I know I have a snowball's chance -- given my lack of pedigree -- so I don't even bother.

Meanwhile, over at [insert innovative startup here], they still believe in hiring those who can produce, and those who think outside the box, often regardless of degree...

Maybe Disney needs more self-taught, straight-talkin' farmers turned artists.

 

[tomman710]

Although you said that this wasn't a boo hoo story, from reading your post I did sense some sour grapes, with all due respect. I'm sure your application was strong and I'm sure you had the abilities to succeed in the disney marketing department, but to claim that this is the perfect example of TDO's problem as a whole is a bit overblown.

From experiencing the college application process, I realized that the admissions departments deny quality applicants that exceed requirements all the time. If MIT denies me and Harvard accepts me, that doesn't mean MIT's admissions department is flawed and Harvard's admissions department is (to quote your opinion of how John is at TDA) "very different." Great talent always gets lost in translation, and the companies (or admissions departments) always give you terrible excuses as to why you were not accepted, and it seems like that has happened to you.

But if this isn't a boo hoo story then I don't know what it is. I'm not sure what this proves to be honest aside from the fact that disney overlookied one potentially great talent. I certainly don't think this is the perfect example of what is wrong with TDO. If you ask me, it's a lot more complicated.

Sometimes the easiest method is the smartest business method. If you have a successful product such as Carsland, it makes business sense to bring the great addition to your flagship resort and to a park that has been hurting in attendance. Sure, can Imagineers at TDO have a little more imagination than Dinorama? I would hope so. But FLE and the potential Avatar addition seem to be moving in the right direction. Also I can't call a company that spends $100+ million on a dark ride (TLM) "cheap." What I can call them though is "overspenders" (The entire WWoHP cost less than that one dark ride). There are plenty of more cost effective methods of spending that would see more investment in attractions and less in DVCs or overspending on single attractions. And I'm not sure what you mean by the "quickest fix", because I would accuse TDO of being the slowest when it comes to fixes and construction. The Yeti is still broken and it is taking 2 years to build a kiddie coaster.

Well I mean this with no offense but you missed the crucial point of the story where the DISNEY RECRUITER told me "they aren't looking for people to be imaginative." That was what the whole point was ... I don't think I could say hey a Disney Recruiter told me "X" without framing it with "Y" but perhaps that was my fault.

Yes I knew some people would misguidedly label this as a boo hoo story, and to be fair when I wrote the email over six years ago I did have sour grapes but that changed when I talked to the recruiter and found out just how out of touch with reality they were. Obviously I am in a much better position now and I wouldn't accept a position there because most likely it would be a demotion and pay cut from where I am but the point of the story is valid and it is what's wrong with current TDO ... they don't have imagaination and they clearly don't want it.

P.S. Oh in reference to quick fixes and the Yeti? Are you joking? What's a quicker fix than just turning it off and putting strobes on it? What's quicker than doing nothing? Although to your point I guess they can't call that a fix but it IS their solution.

 

[M.rudolf]

Here's an example that sums up the problem with TDO and how they are choosing to do business;

This is a personal story but really isn't meant to be about me but more about how they run things ... (I'll try and be as succinct as possible) ...

During college and for about five years after I tried to get a job in the marketing department at WDW. I sent at least a couple resumes every month for any job posting that I either met or exceeded the education AND experience requirements. In those roughly 7 years and (using rough math) somewhere between 160-200 job applications not once did I get a follow up question or call. Please do not misunderstand this to mean I think they should have hired me (this isn't a boo hoo me story) BUT I think that in all that time (and they have records of how much you apply) someone that displays an obvious passion for the product in addition to meeting or exceeding all the requirements deserves at least ONE conversation.

So what did I do? Well, about 6 years ago I crafted an email that basically said (in very short) that "I think it's extremely short sighted and dismissive to not even have one conversation with someone who has applied as much, has the passion, drive, determination in conjunction with the education and experience to boot. Furthermore, if this message had been sent to Walt he would have appreciated the straight talk and probably would have said, 'Hire him!'" Again I should state I do not think they should have hired me, that is not my complaint, my point is they never even talked to me. A conversation should have happened. Especially in the position I am now I see the value of hiring people who have obvious passion for the product. (Granted I know the majority of people who apply there have the passion despite the fact that TDO management seems to lack the passion but I digress). So I went on Hoovers and got all the email addresses of all the people I think should read this email ... Meg, Phillipe, etc ... and I sent it, again not to get hired but in an effort to enact positive change. Basically, "hey, your criteria is flawed and you are potentially missing out on great employees."

A week later I got a call from an executive recruiter who basically said and again paraphrasing, "Yes your passion is evident, yes you have more than enough education, and while we appreciate that you have worked for Fortune 100 and 500 companies you haven't worked for like Coke or Pepsi so we won't ever talk to you."

I, of course said that that doesn't make sense. I know you need to have some criteria to manage the probably 1,000s of applications but come on, Fortunate 100 and 500 companies should be part of the criteria. Especially, considering it takes very little to market Coke or Pepsi because they are already ingrained into our culture ... the recruiter said and again paraphrasing, "We aren't looking for people to be imaginative."

I believe my personal experience is a perfect example of TDO's problem as a whole, they aren't looking for imagination ... they aren't looking for creativity ... they aren't even looking in the right places ...

It's all about what's the easiest, cheapest, and quickest fix ... and the people running the show at TDO don't care.

Compare that with how John is at TDA ... very different.

As person who's whole family is involved with the entertainment industry, it's not just Disney, it's the whole industry nepotism is rampant, if your not a friend of someone or a family member your not getting in the front door. This basically stagnates the industry and stops innovation.
Just like sequels how many new properties are hits,not many.

 

[TalkingHead]

Carl Barks was a farmer turned (self taught) artist.

I'm sure many people here don't have the slightest clue who Barks was (Google him). But he was awesome.

Who indirectly gave us the classic rolling-boulder opening from Raiders of the Lost Ark and by extension the finale to DL's Indiana Jones Adventure.

(The scene in the film was based on a few panels in one of his Scrooge McDuck comics.)

So he ought to be honored as a posthumous honorary Imagineer, right?

 

[Jim Possible]

Who indirectly gave us the classic rolling-boulder opening from Raiders of the Lost Ark and by extension the finale to DL's Indiana Jones Adventure.

(The scene in the film was based on a few panels in one of his Scrooge McDuck comics.)

So he ought to be honored as a posthumous honorary Imagineer, right?

He was given a Disney Legends award a decade or so before his death.

And he lived long enough to see his stories bastardi -- er -- adapted for television as DuckTales.

 

[TalkingHead]

He was given a Disney Legends award a decade or so before his death.

And he lived long enough to see his stories bastardi -- er -- adapted for television as DuckTales.

I'd never thought about it, but it's funny that his comic is referenced at the end of IJA -- but it took a Lucas property for the reference to end up in a Disney park.

Next time someone says Indy isn't Disney, I'll remember this.

 

[spacemt354]

Well I mean this with no offense but you missed the crucial point of the story where the DISNEY RECRUITER told me "they aren't looking for people to be imaginative." That was what the whole point was ... I don't think I could say hey a Disney Recruiter told me "X" without framing it with "Y" but perhaps that was my fault.

Yes I knew some people would misguidedly label this as a boo hoo story, and to be fair when I wrote the email over six years ago I did have sour grapes but that changed when I talked to the recruiter and found out just how out of touch with reality they were. Obviously I am in a much better position now and I wouldn't accept a position there because most likely it would be a demotion and pay cut from where I am but the point of the story is valid and it is what's wrong with current TDO ... they don't have imagaination and they clearly don't want it.

I got your point. I acknowledged it when I said usually people will give you terrible excuses as to why you didn't get a job or you didn't get accepted to a school etc. My point was I thought labeling an entire company as one that does not desire imagination after speaking with only one representative was a bit overblown. Am I defending TDO as a perfect company? heck no. I listed what I felt was wrong in my previous post.

And the reason why I commented in the first place was because I had a similar experience when I got my decision from Harvard. The representative on the phone said I wasn't "smart" enough even though I met every single standardized test score and grade range they were looking for. Does that mean Harvard doesn't want smart people? I highly doubt it. It was just a poorly worded excuse that was given to me in order to justify a decision the admissions department had made. And I like where I am now anyway. The point was though I feel the disney representative you spoke to gave a similarly poorly worded response to a decision that I highly doubt reflects the overall agenda of the entire company. It's just the way things work these days. Connections are key.

 

[Jim Possible]

I'd never thought about it, but it's funny that his comic is referenced at the end of IJA -- but it took a Lucas property for the reference to end up in a Disney park.

Next time someone says Indy isn't Disney, I'll remember this.

Barks didn't get much love from Disney proper when he was alive, as I understand it. He wasn't even allowed to sign his name to the comics (all Disney comics were branded as Walt Disney's Whatever) and it took some comics fans sleuthing around to find out who the "Good Duck Artist" was.

Again, though, my point is that if you look at the best and brightest Disney had throughout its heyday, imagination and hard work trumped education every time.

I dunno what happened exactly or when they got derailed from Walt's ideals, but it's a shame to hear that there's this impenetrable wall of corporate bureaucracy today's best and brightest need to pass through to get in the door. And when they do, even more hurdles that need to be jumped before they can actually accomplish anything.

And that's why other companies are out-Disney-ing Disney.

 

[WDW1974]

Looks like Avatar land at animal kingdom will go down the same path as bald mountain and fire mountain

from ign...
Remember back in June when James Cameron announced that he would be shooting three Avatar sequels simultaneously? Well, now it seems that the filmmaker may have been getting a little ahead of himself.

Indie Wire reports that Avatar 4 will not be a part of Cameron's back-to-back film shoot, according to producer Jon Landau. Additionally, it is still uncertain when production for Avatar 2 and Avatar 3 will begin as the former is currently slated for release no earlier than 2015.

The delays carry over into Cameron's World of Avatar attraction at Disney's Animal Kingdom, which was announced around this time last year. Due to creative differences between Cameron and Disney's Imagineer development team, it seems as though we'll be waiting even longer on that project as well.

Nah. Pandora: The World of Giant Blue Alien Sex Kittens will be coming to DAK ... keep telling yourself that, fanbois.

My sources in LA, which I guarantee are better than anyone else here, say the films are a mess and so far behind Cameron's own delayed schedule, that the next film may not see the theaters until as late as 2016 or even 2017 ... and that means you can bet that the Disney project remains treading water.

And, no, my opinion won't change because Disney moves a character meet-greet-and grope inside ... or decides to close FotLK (and save $$$ because of it).

When I see VERTICAL construction and actual blueprints, then I'll believe you'll see this project.

Anyone want to bet me that you'll see something major at TPFKaTD-MGMS first?

 

[Taylor]

Nah. Pandora: The World of Giant Blue Alien Sex Kittens will be coming to DAK ... keep telling yourself that, fanbois.

My sources in LA, which I guarantee are better than anyone else here, say the films are a mess and so far behind Cameron's own delayed schedule, that the next film may not see the theaters until as late as 2016 or even 2017 ... and that means you can bet that the Disney project remains treading water.

And, no, my opinion won't change because Disney moves a character meet-greet-and grope inside ... or decides to close FotLK (and save $$$ because of it).

When I see VERTICAL construction and actual blueprints, then I'll believe you'll see this project.

Anyone want to bet me that you'll see something major at TPFKaTD-MGMS first?

I hope we get something new at DHS first, any new news on that by the way?

 

[tomman710]

I got your point. I acknowledged it when I said usually people will give you terrible excuses as to why you didn't get a job or you didn't get accepted to a school etc. My point was I thought labeling an entire company as one that does not desire imagination after speaking with only one representative was a bit overblown. Am I defending TDO as a perfect company? heck no. I listed what I felt was wrong in my previous post.

And the reason why I commented in the first place was because I had a similar experience when I got my decision from Harvard. The representative on the phone said I wasn't "smart" enough even though I met every single standardized test score and grade range they were looking for. Does that mean Harvard doesn't want smart people? I highly doubt it. It was just a poorly worded excuse that was given to me in order to justify a decision the admissions department had made. And I like where I am now anyway. The point was though I feel the disney representative you spoke to gave a similarly poorly worded response to a decision that I highly doubt reflects the overall agenda of the entire company. It's just the way things work these days. Connections are key.

Well that is very true, connections are key. I cannot disagree with you at all. I am guilty of it when I hire new people. BUT ... I still interview everyone I get a resume from (granted that is a miniscule number compared to what they get, I know ... they have to screen). But if it is all about connections, that still speaks to the point that TDO is going about it the wrong way, right?


The recruiter who spoke to me intimated that it was basically a company policy, so while she may have chosen her words poorly, I won't doubt you that, she still was following a mandate that came from someone above her, which is evident because someone above her sent her my email. So either way their decision making process is at best short sighted and at worst foolish.

But I want to get this away from my personal story. This isn't about me anymore, so don't misunderstand me (although I do believe I am capable enough to run the corporation better, making fans and shareholders happy in the process, than Iger but that's just my super ego doing all the leg work) but … I wanted to use my experience to illustrate the point of no imagination. I wasn't talking about simply imagination in building attractions but imagination in running the corporation, hiring, positioning, marketing, etc ... the point being TDO is complacent and apathetic.

However, my experience also can be extrapolated to the point where we can wonder how many more creative people than I will ever be have they passed up on? That’s a tough point to make because they have to have criteria to work off but I just hope the pool they are pulling from isn’t just friends, family, or people who hold figurehead positions in companies that require no effort to sell or market.

P.S. I think it's an accomplishment to even be turned down by Harvard because the majority of us do not even qualify to fill out an application. That's admirable.

 

[WDW1974]

Carl Barks was a farmer turned (self taught) artist.

I'm sure many people here don't have the slightest clue who Barks was (Google him). But he was awesome.

As a freelancer who has done work on licensed Disney stuff, I've been tempted to apply for work at Disney proper on more than one occasion. But I know I have a snowball's chance -- given my lack of pedigree -- so I don't even bother.

Meanwhile, over at [insert innovative startup here], they still believe in hiring those who can produce, and those who think outside the box, often regardless of degree...

Maybe Disney needs more self-taught, straight-talkin' farmers turned artists.

Yep. Great story.

And Disney is letting talent slip through the cracks. They should be scouting like the NFL, yet they don't.

Pedigree, connections and, yes (we all know what I mean) what you're willing to do all play a factor on the creative end at TWDC.

I'll probably take hell for this, but I'm used to it, so here goes: I was once introduced to the then head of Disney P&R by a major Disney exec, who is still with the company, as ''someone who knows more about this place (WDW being the place) than I do.'' ... Now, I wasn't hankering for a job working in theme parks at the time (unless I was about to become a Sr VP of Resort Ops or something similar), but if you're the guy who either is saying that or listening, don't you stop for a minute and say 'what would it take to get you on our team? we need passionate, knowledgeable, intelligent spirits such as yourself ... what would you do for us, if you could?''

See, that's the way people should react/act. But they don't. Largely (and Disney is simply a microcosm of the world at large) they want dumber people, people they can control, people they don't have to worry will replace them.

Talent doesn't matter. Background and class do. So when you hear 'class warfare' come up in politics, what you have to understand that it refers to many things, including keeping people with simpler pedigrees from moving up the class ladder.

 

[WDW1974]

Well I mean this with no offense but you missed the crucial point of the story where the DISNEY RECRUITER told me "they aren't looking for people to be imaginative." That was what the whole point was ... I don't think I could say hey a Disney Recruiter told me "X" without framing it with "Y" but perhaps that was my fault.

Yes I knew some people would misguidedly label this as a boo hoo story, and to be fair when I wrote the email over six years ago I did have sour grapes but that changed when I talked to the recruiter and found out just how out of touch with reality they were. Obviously I am in a much better position now and I wouldn't accept a position there because most likely it would be a demotion and pay cut from where I am but the point of the story is valid and it is what's wrong with current TDO ... they don't have imagaination and they clearly don't want it.

You can repeat this until you are as blue in the face as a Pandoran, but people (especially in the USA) want to believe that people in authority (whether they are a WDW VP, a local Congressman, the head of a major US bank, their local clergyman, the university president etc.) somehow are BETTER and SMARTER than the rest of us.

I mean, if Phil Holmes wasn't better than any of us, why aren't we running the MK instead of about it, right?

These people are NOT better and smarter than most of the people in my circle of co-workers and friends. They are dimwits compared with most people I know. Yet, many don't want to hear that because it throws off their World and world views.

If you believe Disney, and TDO in particular, cares about imagination and hiring those who have them and producing a product that showcases it, then you really need a 12-step at the Betty Ford for Pixie Dust Addiction.

 

[Jim Possible]

Yep. Great story.
See, that's the way people should react/act. But they don't. Largely (and Disney is simply a microcosm of the world at large) they want dumber people, people they can control, people they don't have to worry will replace them.

Talent doesn't matter. Background and class due. So when you hear 'class warfare' come up in politics, what you have to understand that it refers to many things, including keeping people with simpler pedigrees from moving up the class ladder.

Mickey Morlocks.

Oh, I hear you. In my current day job, I work directly under a VeeP who has no clue about the day to day operations of my department. In fact, you start asking the right questions and you'll realize that he knows very little about the company in general.

But he has an MBA, and did some time at Harvard, so he gets a pass and is the "face" of our division at the board meetings. (Just be sure to throw softball questions, Mr. Board Member!)

Just sad that The House That Walt Built turned into IBM along the way.

And again, other companies will hire the best and the brightest -- often despite their educational background.

This is why even in animated feature films -- an industry Disney once completely owned -- they're getting lapped. Again and again.

And it's happening in the parks, too.

Time to go back to the basics, I think. Time to take a good hard look at what got Disney to the top in the first place...

Just my opinion.