News Disney World Cast Member unions to begin week of negotiations for wage increases, healthcare costs and more

[Chi84]

So people can have a preference on fireworks shows but not property wide appearance standards that Disney once bragged about “the Disney look.”

Of course they can and do have preferences on both. But as stated in post #1,526, standards of what constitutes good grooming and appropriate dress tend to change over time.

We're talking about CMs and someone said they shouldn't expect better than the lowest pay if they don't comply with "the Disney look." My point was standards of dress often change with the generations and Disney seems to be basing its dress code on a more recent definition of what constitutes acceptable grooming.

I'm not sure why you're talking about fireworks, but there's a dedicated thread for people who want to discuss Harmonious.

 

[kingdead]

So people can have a preference on fireworks shows but not property wide appearance standards that Disney once bragged about “the Disney look.”

I understand not wanting the jailhouse look and getting angry about "wokeness" and whatever but some of you are asking for standards that are 70 years old--if you were a child at Disneyland back then, you'd be approaching the old folks' home today. Put another way, if Disney World had opened in Florida back then, black people wouldn't have been allowed to go inside the gates.

Unless you want Disney World to be the 20th century equivalent of Colonial Williamsburg I don't see what the point is.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Exactly. It is the common norm for any rental unit or home with only the occasional private deal exception and low income housing. there is Anecdotal, Expert, Probabilistic and direct evidence all either provided or optioned in this thread.

It is not something only Japan features. It is common majority in Orange County, FL and much of the US.

No. The only thing that is in this thread is hearsay and anecdotal evidence. No one here has presented any type of industry wide report that states what the standard practice is for the housing market in Orange County. No one here is claiming to be an expert in the field of residential real estate in same county and stated that in their expert opinion that X is the norm vs Y. Its just a bunch of people shouting that they talked to someone, or their third cousin twice removed tried to rent a property once and this happened. No one has conducted an independent survey of any significant sample size to come up with data on current rental trends.

Just shouting that your opinion is fact doesn't make it so. Would I be shocked if there was a linkage between lease agreements and proof of a certain salary? No, it makes strong financial sense to do so, especially if the market bears the narrowing down of potential renters to only such people who can meet that requirement. Doesn't mean there has been any true evidence in this tread to prove it one way or the other.

 

[Drdcm]

I understand not wanting the jailhouse look and getting angry about "wokeness" and whatever but some of you are asking for standards that are 70 years old--if you were a child at Disneyland back then, you'd be approaching the old folks' home today. Put another way, if Disney World had opened in Florida back then, black people wouldn't have been allowed to go inside the gates.

Unless you want Disney World to be the 20th century equivalent of Colonial Williamsburg I don't see what the point is.

Disneys next slogan. Instead of “100 years of wonder” it’ll be. “Disney: the 20th century equivalent of Colonial Williamsburg” lol

 

[celluloid]

No..

If someone provides a link with collected statistics, that is called probabilistic evidence. It is not anecdotal.

That is what the link to the site and table of the Apartment rent rates in Japan was.

You may not find it a compelling set of evidence, but that is by definition, not falling under anecdotal.

Rental Expert sites and the actual pages of the largest apartment ownership properties in the Central FL list it as their requirement. If one wants to believe that is not the norm, that is fine, but it will not change the fact. I don't want to spend a lot of time linking apartment complex screening process pages to show the majority does. But any reasonable person at this point knows that it is a majority situation to prove the income is the norm and standard of renting a property.

Just to point out, more than anecdotal evidence has been shared in this thread when it comes to the link on statistics and average cost of Japanese apartment rent and the pay rate that OLC currently pays and is increasing for their CMs. That's not anecdotal at all.

 

[mkt]

No. The only thing that is in this thread is hearsay and anecdotal evidence. No one here has presented any type of industry wide report that states what the standard practice is for the housing market in Orange County. No one here is claiming to be an expert in the field of residential real estate in same county and stated that in their expert opinion that X is the norm vs Y. Its just a bunch of people shouting that they talked to someone, or their third cousin twice removed tried to rent a property once and this happened. No one has conducted an independent survey of any significant sample size to come up with data on current rental trends.

Just shouting that your opinion is fact doesn't make it so. Would I be shocked if there was a linkage between lease agreements and proof of a certain salary? No, it makes strong financial sense to do so, especially if the market bears the narrowing down of potential renters to only such people who can meet that requirement. Doesn't mean there has been any true evidence in this tread to prove it one way or the other.

I personally spoke with three realtors in Florida and one real estate broker for my reply. All who I have known personally for many years, who are licensed to practice their profession in the state of Florida, and whose primary source of income is real estate.

They're what some would call "expert witnesses".

Such a report as what you ask for doesn't exist in Florida, but you are free to pick apartment complexes at random in the state of Florida and contact them so you may ask what their income requirements are.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I understand not wanting the jailhouse look and getting angry about "wokeness" and whatever but some of you are asking for standards that are 70 years old

They are modern and current standards at many reputable brands including in-n-out, Delta Airlines, several upscale hotels, etc.

 

[celluloid]

Unless you want Disney World to be the 20th century equivalent of Colonial Williamsburg I don't see what the point is.

I think it is understandable why someone would not want to see(specific example here) "bone daddy bad daddy" Jack Skellington Tattoo out of character on their wrist area while they dine.
In particular, it makes it more unfair and difficult for the middle management to decide what is approved and what is not. This is a part of why strict dress codes exist, because it removes the devil in the details that is always existing. They are hard things to write and harder to enforce.

Disney decided it was just no longer worth fighting, yet individual instances come up and are a pain for middle management to make a judgment call, which is even more subjectivity than a guest could have.

 

[Alanzo]

I think it is understandable why someone would not want to see(specific example here) "bone daddy bad daddy" Jack Skellington Tattoo out of character on their wrist area while they dine.
In particular, it makes it more unfair and difficult for the middle management to decide what is approved and what is not. This is a part of why strict dress codes exist, because it removes the devil in the details that is always existing. They are hard things to write and harder to enforce.

Disney decided it was just no longer worth fighting, yet individual instances come up and are a pain for middle management to make a judgment call, which is even more subjectivity than a guest could have.

Here are some logical fallacies in your argument:

1. Hasty Generalization: Your argument uses a single example of a potentially offensive tattoo ("bone daddy bad daddy" Jack Skellington Tattoo) to generalize that all tattoos could be seen as inappropriate by guests. This assumes that all tattoos are equal and may offend all guests, which is not necessarily true.
2. Slippery Slope: Your argument implies that allowing tattoos will lead to a situation where middle management must make subjective judgments about what is acceptable. This assumes that allowing tattoos will inevitably lead to more problematic situations, which may not be true.
3. Appeal to Tradition: Your argument suggests that dress codes exist because they have always been in place, and implies that this is the best solution to the problem of potentially offensive tattoos. This assumes that tradition is always the best approach, rather than considering new and potentially better solutions.

Here are some reasoned responses to your argument:

1. Hasty Generalization: It is important to recognize that tattoos come in many different forms, and not all tattoos are likely to offend guests. While some tattoos may be seen as inappropriate or offensive, it is not fair to generalize that all tattoos are equal and may offend all guests. Therefore, instead of outright banning tattoos, a more nuanced approach could be taken to address specific concerns.
2. Slippery Slope: Just because allowing tattoos may require middle management to make subjective judgments does not necessarily mean that all situations will be problematic. It is possible to set clear guidelines and expectations for acceptable tattoos, which could help minimize the number of subjective judgments that must be made. Furthermore, the potential benefits of allowing tattoos (e.g., promoting a more diverse and inclusive workplace) should also be considered.
3. Appeal to Tradition: While dress codes have traditionally been used to remove subjectivity, it is important to recognize that times and social norms change. What was considered unacceptable in the past may not be considered as such today, and vice versa. Therefore, it may be more appropriate to evaluate the merits of each individual policy or rule, rather than relying solely on tradition. Additionally, a more flexible approach to dress codes and appearance policies could be considered, which allows for some individuality and self-expression while still maintaining a professional appearance.

There, this is now settled.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I'm not sure why you're talking about fireworks, but there's a dedicated thread for people who want to discuss Harmonious.

You’re smart enough to know exactly why I used that as an example. You wouldn’t dismiss someone’s thoughts about harmonious by saying “Disney isn’t for you” - but you did just that when someone made a comment on the CM appearances.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Your argument implies that allowing tattoos will lead to a situation where middle management must make subjective judgments about what is acceptable. This assumes that allowing tattoos will inevitably lead to more problematic situations, which may not be true.

We know this is an issue and we know it’s true.

 

[Alanzo]

We know this is an issue and we know it’s true.

Just because allowing tattoos may require middle management to make subjective judgments does not necessarily mean that all situations will be problematic. In other words, by merely allowing tattoos it is not at all certain that a path is now set --- that middle management will now be spending all their time attempting to make subjective judgements about what is acceptable -- it is a slippery slope to assume that by allowing tattoos middle management will be swarmed with "tattoo decisionmaking" whereas they never had to deal with difficult decisions before.

Sure, some tattoos will be deemed offensive and middle management will have to address it, just like the 100 other things middle management has to decide to address because that's the life of being in middle management, with or without tattoos. Tattoos are not the cause of middle management having to make difficult decisions: making difficult decisions is the job.

 

[Lilofan]

Disney Cast Members can’t resell anything they purchase with their discount or property control merchandise without risk of being fired. To get into Property Control/Cast Connections you have to be with a CM

I beg to differ. I went to a flea market in Mt Dora a few years ago. There was a table that was staffed by a guy. He had for sale among many things Disney , chipped merchandise figurines . Does one think he bought what he was trying to resell he bought at a theme park gift shop? I think not.

 

[Lilofan]

There still is a Disney look. It adapted with the times.

And in hopes in these times to draw more into Casting to be hired ( ie tattoos that no longer need to be hidden or disguised with tattoo make up. )

 

[Chi84]

You’re smart enough to know exactly why I used that as an example. You wouldn’t dismiss someone’s thoughts about harmonious by saying “Disney isn’t for you” - but you did just that when someone made a comment on the CM appearances.

I didn't say "Disney isn't for you." I said Disney isn't abandoning its dress code; it's changing the code to comply with modern times and that its doing so does not justify saying CMs don't deserve anything more than the lowest pay. You're trying to make this thread into something it's not about.

If you insist on discussing fireworks, there is an analogy to be drawn there also. Disney changed Harmonious to include more characters and music from recent movies, ostensibly to make the show more attractive to a particular age demographic (kids who recognize them). I enjoyed the fireworks but thought the show was out of character for Epcot and led to the monstrosity known as "eyesore lagoon." Apparently, so many people did not enjoy the show - for whatever reason - that Disney is changing it.

It's not my call to tell people what to like or not like. If there is a huge contingent out there who object to how the CMs look, they can share their thoughts with Disney. My point is that I think the CMs' current dress code is fine and comports well with modern standards of dress. My opinion, and it's only that, is that most people who go to Disney don't care about this because the CMs look pretty much like the people they see everyday.

Saying that Disney is aiming some things at a particular demographic is not saying that Disney is "not for" everyone else. It just means that not everyone is going to like everything about it. If you find that Disney is changing in so many ways that you don't enjoy any of it anymore, then it's your call to decide whether or not it's for you.

 

[Lilofan]

I was joking, but the fact that WDW gave their cast members the 50 percent discount in leu of a pay raise is truly sad and insulting to the cast members.

Every several years the unions and company reach a compromise and the cast approve the contract ( ie pay raises ) , rinse and repeat every few years. So what's truly sad and insulting ? The cast voted after the unions convinced them to approve the contract presented to them every time contract time comes around ( after a few votes of course ).

 

[Disstevefan1]

Look at the history of the company before Iger. Today is Iger's responsibility, but Eisner was the one that pushed the company into the contemporary taste and society of the time, a trend which has continued with Iger. Iger is a continuation of Eisner.

Even if we determine that Eisner pushed the company in a direction, (possibly, but as a guest and a customer I never noticed it) Iger could have easily turned the ship in whatever direction he wanted to do, but Iger was ALL IN and is who is responsible since he first ran the company.

Let's keep Eisner (and now Chapek) out of the mess we are in right now.

The good thing is that things can only get better for Iger, I can't think it could possibly get worse.

 

[Lilofan]

Even if we determine that Eisner pushed the company in a direction, (possibly, but as a guest and a customer I never noticed it) Iger could have easily turned the ship in whatever direction he wanted to do, but Iger was ALL IN and is who is responsible since the first ran the company.

Let's keep Eisner (and now Chapek) out of the mess we are in right now.

The good thing is that things can only get better for Iger, I can't think it could possibly get worse.

Iger seems to be the only hope in turning the ship on the right direction for WDW. I'm still waiting for that external list of non Disney executives being considered by the Disney Board for the CEO position. I don't think it even exists.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

I beg to differ. I went to a flea market in Mt Dora a few years ago. There was a table that was staffed by a guy. He had for sale among many things Disney , chipped merchandise figurines . Does one think he bought what he was trying to resell he bought at a theme park gift shop? I think not.

What do you beg to differ? Everything I stated in my post is a fact.

- to get into Property Control/Cast Connection you must be a CM or accompanied by one
- it is against Disney policy (as a CM) to resell anything purchased there

To purchase merchandise with a CM discount, you must be a CM
- it is against Disneys policy to resell that merchandise, even if you’re just buying for a family member

All of those things are termable offenses

 

[The Mom]

If there's need for more anecdotal evidence that apartment complexes requiring a certain ratio of income versus rent is a thing in the U.S., it's not just Orlando or the state of Florida. It is required in many apartment complexes even in the Nashville area. My daughter moved into a 1 BR unit near there when she started a job there last fall, and even showing her first paycheck to the complex's management, demonstrating that her income exceeds the minimum threshold for her rent, she still had to have her mother and I cosign her 14 month lease because she had no credit history just out of college. Although this is my personal anecdote, I will add that this requirement wasn't a requirement of only this one apartment complex/company, but of every place my daughter looked to rent in metro Nashville, across multiple rental companies.

This wasn't a requirement the last time I rented in the mid 90's, but these complexes now act as though this has been a requirement for years now.

I had to cosign both of my children's first apartments because they were just starting out and had no credit history.
When I got my first apartment no one had to cosign even though I didn't make 3X the rent, and really struggled a bit when my roommate moved away. But that was almost 50 years ago.