Yes, I agree.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Disney slowly losing our dollars.
- Thread starter epcotisbest
- Start date
Yes, I agree.
Yes, it just keeps costing more and more, which is the underlying theme of my original post.
Dedicated fan base? Yesh-that's us. Just getting less dedicated I suppose.
I had dizzy turns once, but a little penicillin....Holy S.... Iam off after looking at this thread.All these graphs are giving me dizzy turns.
koryadams
Active Member
I understand! It's okay to explore the world! I want to go many other places eventually!!
PhilharMagician
Well-Known Member
This is not a 10 second job for a few reasons. One, the Census puts out numbers in inflation adjusted dollars. My chart was not inflation adjusted, as it was to show the trend in prices, not necessarily against inflation since Disney's prices aren't really related to inflation. So we would be comparing adjusted vs nominal numbers.
Second - Who do we compare to? The entire country? A region? Or do we focus on Disney's target demographics in some way?
I'll take a stab and explain my methodology. Disney has always been a premium product - so we should compare with the incomes of those actually likely to travel and take vacations at a place like Disney. The Census Bureau splits the households into 5ths. I'll track against the 60-80% range as a 'above average' but not the top group. The line in this chart is divided by 100 to not throw off the scale of the chart.
Since the household number is inflation adjusted, and the others are not, it's not a true comparison.. but if the ticket prices were inflation adjusted, the lines would simply be flatter.. making the trend look even less evil.
As you can see.. what torques people off is.. you see the household line flattening for the last 5 years.. but the ticket lines actually accelerating during that same time period.
Perception is everything to the customer...
Thank you for taking the time and adding the comparison!
Your last quote is exactly the reason I wanted to see the comparison. this is not even showing any of the drastic increases in food and lodging
Okay being a bit curious about what impact this was actually having on bottom line of Disney (which is what drives everything they do) I poked around in some annual reports... sadly for those thinking Disney is feeling the pain of the customers... the number don't seem to support that.
Below is the revenue in millions of dollars only from the domestic park operations, broken down by hotel room revenue and park ticket/mickey ears/food/drink everything except hotel rooms)
2005 _____6,867 _____1,646 _____5,221
2006 _____7,514 _____1,826 _____5,688
2007 _____7,997 _____1,912 _____6,085
2008 _____8,480 _____1,942 _____6,538
2009 _____8,442 _____1,755 _____6,687
2010 _____8,404 _____1,771 _____6,633
2011 _____9,302 _____1,895 _____7,407
2012 ____10,339 _____1,948 _____8,391
As you can see... they aren't seeing an decrease in the revenue so I'm doubtful that they will be cutting back price increases at this point.
When you look at attendance...
% change from previous year
______________attendance ______per capita spending
2005 __________5% __________5%
2006 __________5% __________3%
2007 __________3% __________3%
2008 __________2% __________3%
2009 __________2% _________-6%
2010 _________-1% __________3%
2011 __________1% __________8%
2012 __________3% __________7%
Again you don't see any real decreases in the numbers going so don't expect any real halt to ticket prices, because why would you stop raising them when people are still willing to pay the ever increasing prices.
The only good news from a customer standpoint is the occupancy rates...
______________occupancy_____________per room
_________________________________guest spending
2004 __________78% __________204
2005 __________83% __________206
2006 __________87% __________218
2007 __________89% __________225
2008 __________89% __________233
2009 __________87% __________214
2010 __________82% __________224
2011 __________82% __________241
2012 __________81% __________257
Note the occupancy has finally started to come back down which should send a message that the prices are reaching a point that is chasing away guests. And clearly from the spending per room you can see that the average has gone up with only 2009 showing a real hit though that was likely a result of the economy going into a meltdown. So there is likely going to be a hold on room rate increases and AP holder may finally start seeing some more discount rooms popping up since occupancy rates are now dropping.
Below is the revenue in millions of dollars only from the domestic park operations, broken down by hotel room revenue and park ticket/mickey ears/food/drink everything except hotel rooms)
____________Revenue _____Hotel Room _____Other
2004 _____6,111 _____1,567 _____4,5442005 _____6,867 _____1,646 _____5,221
2006 _____7,514 _____1,826 _____5,688
2007 _____7,997 _____1,912 _____6,085
2008 _____8,480 _____1,942 _____6,538
2009 _____8,442 _____1,755 _____6,687
2010 _____8,404 _____1,771 _____6,633
2011 _____9,302 _____1,895 _____7,407
2012 ____10,339 _____1,948 _____8,391
As you can see... they aren't seeing an decrease in the revenue so I'm doubtful that they will be cutting back price increases at this point.
When you look at attendance...
% change from previous year
______________attendance ______per capita spending
2005 __________5% __________5%
2006 __________5% __________3%
2007 __________3% __________3%
2008 __________2% __________3%
2009 __________2% _________-6%
2010 _________-1% __________3%
2011 __________1% __________8%
2012 __________3% __________7%
Again you don't see any real decreases in the numbers going so don't expect any real halt to ticket prices, because why would you stop raising them when people are still willing to pay the ever increasing prices.
The only good news from a customer standpoint is the occupancy rates...
______________occupancy_____________per room
_________________________________guest spending
2004 __________78% __________204
2005 __________83% __________206
2006 __________87% __________218
2007 __________89% __________225
2008 __________89% __________233
2009 __________87% __________214
2010 __________82% __________224
2011 __________82% __________241
2012 __________81% __________257
Note the occupancy has finally started to come back down which should send a message that the prices are reaching a point that is chasing away guests. And clearly from the spending per room you can see that the average has gone up with only 2009 showing a real hit though that was likely a result of the economy going into a meltdown. So there is likely going to be a hold on room rate increases and AP holder may finally start seeing some more discount rooms popping up since occupancy rates are now dropping.
PhilharMagician
Well-Known Member
The only way to change is to abstain from visiting WDW.
If this trend continues, people will stop going because they simply cannot. Disney is slowly pricing themselves into a financial class of people that simply does not have the volume of people to sustain the current attendance of the parks. The faster they escalate prices over our household incomes the faster they will see reduction in occupancy rates and attendance
If this trend continues, people will stop going because they simply cannot. Disney is slowly pricing themselves into a financial class of people that simply does not have the volume of people to sustain the current attendance of the parks. The faster they escalate prices over our household incomes the faster they will see reduction in occupancy rates and attendance
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
I have posted this comment in a number of threads here over the last 2 or 3 weeks. You can post figures and inflation rates, but this is more of a general nickle and diming
----------
With their nickle and diming, WDW has broke me of just about everything EXCEPT my F&W addiction. My wife and I are going in November for a weekend - we will buy some F&W merchandise and will do events and tastings, but thats it. We will have non-hopper length of stay passes, and will be in EPCOT only. I doubt we will hit DTD or anywhere else, nor will we be even looking at any non-F&W merch. I also think we will buy less - if items are $20, i really have no problem with buying 5 or 6 of them, but when they make them $50, after one overpriced purchase I walk away. We will also will not be going with the family this summer. We are skipping a year and banking points. The insane pricing, loss of quality, and general feeling of "how can we squeeze every nickel out of you" attitude has really soured me on WDW as of late. I used to go 3 -4 times a year, and somtimes just fly down for weekends to run in RunDIsney events. Nope, not any more. We will pop in for F&W every so often, and do a family vacation every 2 or 3 years now.
----------
It is not so much the cost - we can still afford WDW. It is the cost to value as compared to other vacations. I no longer feel like WDW is a "resort vacation". The first time I went as an adult with kids, I went with the idea of "OK, this is for the kids" and I ended up enjoying it way more than I thought. It was the level of service, the staff, the cleanlines of the resort (not just the parks, the whole place), the attention to detail, and the reasonable (sort of) pricing. After part admission, flights, and lodging were paid for, you could have a decent vacation without having to reach for your wallet at every turn.
Now it feels like every time I turn around WDW is increasing the price of something, food, TiW cards, park media, tours, etc. All in little, but frequent, amounts. While this has been happening, the resort has lost a lot of its "polish".
I still enjoy WDW, and we will continue to go back every so often, but they have - at this point - lost me as a major multi-trip customer. There are many other places I can go, where I can get the same or much better service, for less money.
-dave
----------
With their nickle and diming, WDW has broke me of just about everything EXCEPT my F&W addiction. My wife and I are going in November for a weekend - we will buy some F&W merchandise and will do events and tastings, but thats it. We will have non-hopper length of stay passes, and will be in EPCOT only. I doubt we will hit DTD or anywhere else, nor will we be even looking at any non-F&W merch. I also think we will buy less - if items are $20, i really have no problem with buying 5 or 6 of them, but when they make them $50, after one overpriced purchase I walk away. We will also will not be going with the family this summer. We are skipping a year and banking points. The insane pricing, loss of quality, and general feeling of "how can we squeeze every nickel out of you" attitude has really soured me on WDW as of late. I used to go 3 -4 times a year, and somtimes just fly down for weekends to run in RunDIsney events. Nope, not any more. We will pop in for F&W every so often, and do a family vacation every 2 or 3 years now.
----------
It is not so much the cost - we can still afford WDW. It is the cost to value as compared to other vacations. I no longer feel like WDW is a "resort vacation". The first time I went as an adult with kids, I went with the idea of "OK, this is for the kids" and I ended up enjoying it way more than I thought. It was the level of service, the staff, the cleanlines of the resort (not just the parks, the whole place), the attention to detail, and the reasonable (sort of) pricing. After part admission, flights, and lodging were paid for, you could have a decent vacation without having to reach for your wallet at every turn.
Now it feels like every time I turn around WDW is increasing the price of something, food, TiW cards, park media, tours, etc. All in little, but frequent, amounts. While this has been happening, the resort has lost a lot of its "polish".
I still enjoy WDW, and we will continue to go back every so often, but they have - at this point - lost me as a major multi-trip customer. There are many other places I can go, where I can get the same or much better service, for less money.
-dave
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
So when it's time for us to do our first Uni vacation I'll be in touch with you for that guided tour!
I read what the Hatter has to say often and I remember so well the .........
I agree with everything you said. The downgrade in cleanliness, the disappointing meals, the poor service, the insane planning required, and the loss of "magic".
We went to Sandals in St. Lucia over a few months back. Marie at KK made the plane, helicopter, and resort reservations for us, and I arranged car service to the airport. That was it. We looked over the various restruants that they had available, decided what ones we wanted to try, and looked and what day certain ones were closed so that we did not end up missing one. That was it. No ADR's 180 days out. We got there, went to the restaruant desk, and made reservations. Took all of 5 minutes. For roughly the same price as what people here are posting as the cost of a vacation at WDW, we had people bending over backwards for us, a wonderfull room, excellent staff, free dining (real free dining, as in eat as much as you want as often as you want), free drinks, free room service, and free activities (Snorkling, scuba diving, sailing, etc). St Lucia runs three Sandlas resorts and they have bus service between them, because you are allowed to poll and restaruant hop. Here is a unique concept - the busses run on a schedule. They have times posted - Next bus to La Toc - 1:30 PM. Imagine that, you know when you are going to get on a bus. Amazing.
-dave
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
This is exactly the issue. It's not that we can't afford WDW. We definitely can. My problem is feeling like what's there isn't worth the amount it costs. It's not just rising prices, it's the decline of the product those prices are for. If everything (maintenance, cleanliness, details, food, etc.) were up to Disney standards it wouldn't be so bothersome. I'd probably not have such an issue. I'd plunk down the money regardless of the price increases and be fine with it. For me it's an overall feeling of being ripped-off. Same feeling if I go to Sonic, order a blended ice cream, and I receive the cup half full. No. I'm not paying for that. I want what I'm paying for, no less. At the current premium prices WDW asks for everything...admission tickets, food, merchandise, & resort rooms)...I don't feel like I'd get a premium product. That's what my problem is. Nobody enjoys feeling ripped-off. Why in the world would I throw myself into a situation where I know without a doubt that's exactly how I'm going to feel?
Honestly, at this point WDW needs to not only get their act together & make things right, they need to convince those of us who've been jaded that they are back on track. Of course, folks in hell need ice water but that ain't happening anytime soon either so I'm not holding my breath. LOL!
------------------------------
Had quite a conversation with my brother just the other night about WDW. He's still totally on the pixie dust high. He says to me, "You just need to go back to WDW and find the magic again. It's the nostalgia! Make memories!" Hubby & I laughed. He needs to spit the hook. The mouse has him on the line but gooooood! My response, "If I'm looking for magic I know I won't find it at WDW. No thanks. I know where to find the magic and it isn't there. Nostalgia? We could do a road trip to Virginia like when we were kids and visit the parks there. There's your nostalgia. Memories? Memories are made every day regardless of where you are. Neither nostalgia nor memories are singularly found within the confines of WDW. I'm not biting."
Pumbas Nakasak
Heading for the great escape.
Ill hoist the bunting.
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
I went to WDW as a kid when I was maybe 17 or so - it had to be around that time, because my parents and brother went again a few years later and I didn't go because I was in college. I didn't go again untill I was married with I think one kid, so I am guessing 1999 or 2000 - I have stuff with the "2000" branding on it, so I had to have been there then. Going to WDW was my then wife's idea. I really had no desire to go. My interests were in forigen cities and tropical beaches. Anyway; I booked the trip myself and remember at every turn going "wow, this is not cheap" but when we got there I felt like I had value for my money, and I wanted to go back.
If we fast fowarded to now, and my first trip as an adult was today, I think my response would have been; Eh, that was nice, but really really expensive. Lets go somewhere different next year.
-dave
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
Weird,really weird.I'am now convinced I'am at a different WDW than certain people on here who go on about things that ain't right,example,a drop in maintenance
Hatter, I hate to break it to you, especially since I am over on the food and dining boards quite a bit as well. But WDW food ... most of it is par at best. Add in WDW prices, and it is not worth it. There are some good dishes, and some standouts, but price points - especially as of late, have killed them.
-dave
I was 23 in 1983, married for less than a year and had never been to WDW. Heard about this place with a jungle cruise, giant tree house, castle and more but came from a poor family that did not even know what a vacation was. I did go at 23, not long after Epcot opened, and have been making up for lost time ever since. Will always have a special fondness for WDW, but the wonder and magic is not like it used to be...most frustrating is it could be but isn't.
Have a wonderful trip.
I think this sums up a lot of people's feelings.
George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
People will still go, spend the same amount they used to for a longer vacation and stay for fewer days (if not spend more). Sounds like a win-win for Disney.
