Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

[joel_maxwell]

But how could those trains navigate the treacherous Britton Hill, and all it's mind-bending 345 ft?

(highest point in Florida, btw)

:lol: I think my old driveway had that elevation change.

Here we go again... I`ve an advert from 1990 saying it would open in 1997. Disney under Eisner managed to drag the project into the ground. Their `free land` back then was a swamp south of Epcot, with no links to the rest of WDW. On purpose. Disney don`t want stops at Uni, Uni would block it without their stop, Disney would block it if Uni has a stop and so on...

We`ll see.

So you are insinuating that it would take Disney funding the whole thing and not receiving any aid from the state of Florida since they would make it more of an Equal Opportunity Train that would take you to more locations?

I wish Birmingham would get a local Marta system down our version of I-4 (called 280). See my signature and that will give you a clue why would couldn't or should I say wouldn't. Average speed during business hours is 7mph. Now that is efficiency.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Why are they talking high-speed rail? Disney has touted MagLev for years from Orlando to WDW. They most likely have plans somewhere in their files. This would make more sense than having a system which relies on 'pollution generating' power on each train. Florida's flat land would be an ideal experiment on forward looking mag-lev. Where would the trains be built? Overseas as are many of out public transit vehicles? Mag-lev from Orlando to Tampa would be quiet, clean and high-speed. Imagine, no noisy tracks for a train to screech around on curves. Are the bridges on I-4 high enough for trains to pass under - or do they need to be raised?

Both high speed and maglev would be powered electricity generated elsehwere, so your comment on pollution is moot. A maglev would most likely be elevated, think monorail, and would have the advantage of being able to go over obstacles that high speed may have to circumvent or have cleared.

I wish Birmingham would get a local Marta system down our version of I-4 (called 280). See my signature and that will give you a clue why would couldn't or should I say wouldn't. Average speed during business hours is 7mph. Now that is efficiency.

MARTA is hardly the best example of mass transit you could be wishing.

 

[Slowjack]

I wish Birmingham would get a local Marta system down our version of I-4 (called 280). See my signature and that will give you a clue why would couldn't or should I say wouldn't. Average speed during business hours is 7mph. Now that is efficiency.

If you wanted real efficiency, for a fraction of the cost of the rail lines you could build more office space down 280 so those people wouldn't have to go downtown. More seriously, I-65 is more our version of I-4. 280 is a highway, not a freeway, and many of its problems stem from traffic lights--especially that section just east of 459. That's one thing I don't miss about Cahaba Heights...

 

[Slowjack]

Federal money

This is what drives me nuts about the size of the federal government.

Just to be be clear, federal money means borrowed money, paid back by our children. I like mass transit in places where it works (Munich, for example). If a high-speed rail line makes sense for Florida, they should pay for it themselves (or through taxes on tourists). If it doesn't make sense, then no one should pay for it. People often will say, well, the state can't possibly pay for a project that big by itself, but if that's the case, it would also be true that we can't collectively pay for projects like this across the country.

 

[saxamoophone]

To answer a few of the questions, the Great Orlando Transportation Board already has plans for Light-Rail to connect everything together. One of the major stops would be the Convention Center. From there, it would connect to Sea World, Lockheed Martin, Universal Orlando, The Malls (Festival Bay & Mall at Mal.), and work it's way up to Downtown Orlando along I-4.

The main target would of course be Tourists. Tourists make up something along the lines of 30% of the traffic on I-4, and cause 80% of the accidents. Get them off the streets and it's a win for everyone.

I-4 will also be undergoing a MASSIVE redo around 2012, that will get VERY messy and cause some massive backups for years. So anything to get people off the streets will be a major help.

 

[jt04]

To answer a few of the questions, the Great Orlando Transportation Board already has plans for Light-Rail to connect everything together. One of the major stops would be the Convention Center. From there, it would connect to Sea World, Lockheed Martin, Universal Orlando, The Malls (Festival Bay & Mall at Mal.), and work it's way up to Downtown Orlando along I-4.

The main target would of course be Tourists. Tourists make up something along the lines of 30% of the traffic on I-4, and cause 80% of the accidents. Get them off the streets and it's a win for everyone.

I-4 will also be undergoing a MASSIVE redo around 2012, that will get VERY messy and cause some massive backups for years. So anything to get people off the streets will be a major help.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the Orlando tourism industry will only grow. Bite the bullet and build some rails for the tourists. The distances are not overwhelming. This is an obvious win win situation and will prove or disprove the viability of such systems.

 

[lazyboy97o]

To answer a few of the questions, the Great Orlando Transportation Board already has plans for Light-Rail to connect everything together. One of the major stops would be the Convention Center. From there, it would connect to Sea World, Lockheed Martin, Universal Orlando, The Malls (Festival Bay & Mall at Mal.), and work it's way up to Downtown Orlando along I-4.

The main target would of course be Tourists. Tourists make up something along the lines of 30% of the traffic on I-4, and cause 80% of the accidents. Get them off the streets and it's a win for everyone.

I-4 will also be undergoing a MASSIVE redo around 2012, that will get VERY messy and cause some massive backups for years. So anything to get people off the streets will be a major help.

I find the prospect of a light rail system being built quickly very small.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the Orlando tourism industry will only grow. Bite the bullet and build some rails for the tourists. The distances are not overwhelming. This is an obvious win win situation and will prove or disprove the viability of such systems.

Firstly, Orlando is not some magic testing grounds. Every proposal has been tried somewhere else in the world and both good and bad examples can be found.

The biggest kink in all of these proposals is that Americans are, by and large, not accustomed to travel on the rails. Unless scheduling is limited, there will be no hopping off the airplane and just catching the next high speed train. That type of service is going to cost extra. Most are going to have to grab their bags and make it onto the train in the few minutes it will spend at the station. Light rail is only ideal for moving people with small pieces of luggage. Cramming tourists onto light rail to get to their hotels will require long delays at stations and larger vehicles so as to handle the greater volume of luggage.

Then there is time. Using mass transit is often passed on because while cheaper, the time involved is greater, or so perceived. Stopping at a bunch of hotels and theme parks makes getting from the airport to one's destination a greater ordeal. Again, efficiency requires the use of nodes, not front door access, and tourists will once again be required to grab their bags and move on in a timely fashion.

The advantages for light rail are going to lie with locals and people moving away from where they are staying (but they better not rent a car at the airport). While Universal, SeaWorld and others may be on board, Disney could kill the plan by refusing to play along. An effective system would have a limited number, if not just a single, stations. Unless Disney opens up public buses, or uses their own fleet, to feed these stations then they are allowing people to leave Walt Disney World, a concept they have been working hard to prevent.

 

[jt04]

I find the prospect of a light rail system being built quickly very small.


Firstly, Orlando is not some magic testing grounds. Every proposal has been tried somewhere else in the world and both good and bad examples can be found.

The biggest kink in all of these proposals is that Americans are, by and large, not accustomed to travel on the rails. Unless scheduling is limited, there will be no hopping off the airplane and just catching the next high speed train. That type of service is going to cost extra. Most are going to have to grab their bags and make it onto the train in the few minutes it will spend at the station. Light rail is only ideal for moving people with small pieces of luggage. Cramming tourists onto light rail to get to their hotels will require long delays at stations and larger vehicles so as to handle the greater volume of luggage.

Then there is time. Using mass transit is often passed on because while cheaper, the time involved is greater, or so perceived. Stopping at a bunch of hotels and theme parks makes getting from the airport to one's destination a greater ordeal. Again, efficiency requires the use of nodes, not front door access, and tourists will once again be required to grab their bags and move on in a timely fashion.

The advantages for light rail are going to lie with locals and people moving away from where they are staying (but they better not rent a car at the airport). While Universal, SeaWorld and others may be on board, Disney could kill the plan by refusing to play along. An effective system would have a limited number, if not just a single, stations. Unless Disney opens up public buses, or uses their own fleet, to feed these stations then they are allowing people to leave Walt Disney World, a concept they have been working hard to prevent.

That was the old way. I think you would see Orlando as a great test bed and successful. Tourists won't need to carry their luggage because they will be checked through to their destination. The high speed rail would only stop at the Conv Center/Universal/Sea World hub, the WDW hub, Lakeland hub and Tampa airport. As an example, if staying at Universal you would just board the train at MCO (price included in your resort stay) depart at the Conv Center and access the Universal monorail or lightrail loop that brings you to your resort. Your baggage would be brought to your room and will arrive before you get there or shortly after. If flying into Tampa, same thing. That is how I envision it anyway.

 

[The Conundrum]

lightrail sucks. Maglev is the only way to go!

 

[jt04]

lightrail sucks. Maglev is the only way to go!

Never happen in the near future, way too expensive.

 

[TP2000]

lightrail sucks. Maglev is the only way to go!

The only operating Maglev system is the one in Shanghai from the airport to downtown. And it's running a multi-million dollar defecit every year, and is bankrolled by the Communist central government only due to ego.

Anaheim has already eliminated lightrail and streetcars from their Fixed Guideway Project. That's a smart move for a tourist area, in my opinion. They are focusing on elevated peoplemover or monorail instead. Portland is the model for civic light rail/streetcar integration, but a tourist area needs to look and feel "different" from even an excellent system like Portland to make it palatable to tourists. If only to make Dad feel like he isn't just going to work and make Mom feel safe.

Anaheim will be the anchor for the California High Speed Rail's first leg in 2017, with the big ARTIC station replacing the current depot and kicking off the entire concept. The fixed guideway ties ARTIC to the Disneyland Resort area 10 blocks west. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yoqo1xSiBSc

I said it earlier, but I'll say it again... This has been a long, politically arduous, and very expensive process for California and Anaheim just to get to this advanced stage of design and implementation, and we are still 8 years away from seeing the first bullet train arrive in Anaheim with Disneyland tourists. If Florida and Orlando want to try a similar system of long-distance high speed rail and a local Orlando rail circulator system, they'd be looking at the decade of the 2020's at the earliest before the first train arrives.

And it's going to cost billions and billions, and a big boost from the voting taxpayers.

 

[jt04]

The only operating Maglev system is the one in Shanghai from the airport to downtown. And it's running a multi-million dollar defecit every year, and is bankrolled by the Communist central government only due to ego.

Anaheim has already eliminated lightrail and streetcars from their Fixed Guideway Project. That's a smart move for a tourist area, in my opinion. They are focusing on elevated peoplemover or monorail instead. Portland is the model for civic light rail/streetcar integration, but a tourist area needs to look and feel "different" from even an excellent system like Portland to make it palatable to tourists. If only to make Dad feel like he isn't just going to work and make Mom feel safe.

Anaheim will be the anchor for the California High Speed Rail's first leg in 2017, with the big ARTIC station replacing the current depot and kicking off the entire concept. The fixed guideway ties ARTIC to the Disneyland Resort area 10 blocks west. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yoqo1xSiBSc

I said it earlier, but I'll say it again... This has been a long, arduous, expensive process for California and Anaheim just to get to this advanced stage of design and implementation, and we are still 8 years away from seeing the first bullet train arrive in Anaheim with Disneyland tourists. If Florida and Orlando want to try a similar system of long-distance high speed rail and a local Orlando rail circulator system, they'd be looking at the decade of the 2020's at the earliest before the first train arrives.

And it's going to cost billions and billions, and a big boost from the voting taxpayers.

There is 8 billion in the stimulus earmarked for high speed rail. That won't build a system in Cali but a portion of it could build the Tampa/Orlando link. It's shovel ready and could open in 2014.

My guess is it has a good chance of getting approved along with an Anaheim/Las Vegas standard high speed link (not the rumored maglev)

 

[TP2000]

There is 8 billion in the stimulus earmarked for high speed rail. That won't build a system in Cali but a portion of it could build the Tampa/Orlando link. It's shovel ready and could open in 2014.

My guess is it has a good chance of getting approved along with an Anaheim/Las Vegas standard high speed link (not the rumored maglev)

Well, Governor Schwarzenegger just handed in his formal application for 4.7 Billion of that stimulus money last week. Since the California voters have already approved an additional 9 Billion in bond money last year, it's a done deal as far as the Feds are concerned. :animwink:

That leaves 3.3 Billion left for the rest of the country, but Florida is competing with two other regional plans who are also after the remaining money; Chicago/Upper Midwest plan and the Portland-Seattle plan.

Florida voters already voted down a modest 4 Billion dollar bond measure for high speed rail in 2004, and the Feds know that. Florida needs to get another bond measure on the ballot for 2010 and get it approved, then it can make a legit application for whatever remains of the 3.3 Billion from the Feds. But again, Florida is competing with Chicago and Portland-Seattle who are also aggresively pulling their proposal together.

Florida is a decade behind others when it comes to planning and political groundwork, despite whatever vague sketches of trains flying past orange groves can easily have the "shovel-ready" tagline applied to it.

 

[jt04]

Well, Governor Schwarzenegger just handed in his formal application for 4.7 Billion of that stimulus money last week. Since the California voters have already approved an additional 9 Billion in bond money last year, it's a done deal as far as the Feds are concerned. :animwink:

That leaves 3.3 Billion left for the rest of the country, but Florida is competing with two other regional plans who are also after the remaining money; Chicago/Upper Midwest plan and the Portland-Seattle plan.

Florida voters already voted down a modest 4 Billion dollar bond measure for high speed rail in 2004, and the Feds know that. Florida needs to get another bond measure on the ballot for 2010 and get it approved, then it can make a legit application for whatever remains of the 3.3 Billion from the Feds. But again, Florida is competing with Chicago and Portland-Seattle who are also aggresively pulling their proposal together.

Florida is a decade behind others when it comes to planning and political groundwork, despite whatever vague sketches of trains flying past orange groves can easily have the "shovel-ready" tagline applied to it.

Do you know what the price tag is for a rail from Tampa to Orlando?

I'd just add that Disney backing may mean something is happening. And don't forget, no Florida electoral votes in 2012.........:zipit:

I used to live in California and an LA to SF to Sacramento bullet train makes sense. As does the Las Vegas link. Portland to Seattle also makes sense. I say build them all. :lol:

 

[TP2000]

My guess is it has a good chance of getting approved along with an Anaheim/Las Vegas standard high speed link (not the rumored maglev)

The Las Vegas-Anaheim project is in hibernation and will be years behind California High Speed Rail. It's stalled out entirely in the last few years to be honest, mainly because the Las Vegas casinos are struggling to survive right now and they have all backed away from subsidizing any rail plan to SoCal. ARTIC will be built with the ability to expand for platforms for Las Vegas high speed rail, but no one is holding their breath.

The only viable, active high speed rail project in the nation is the one currently run by the California High Speed Rail Authority. The 9 Billion dollars in bond money it received from voters in 2008 has finally gotten it off the ground, after 15 years of planning and a solid decade of design and management. There's nothing currently in the USA even close to the financial backing and project status of California High Speed Rail. http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

 

[TP2000]

Do you know what the price tag is for a rail from Tampa to Orlando?

I'd just add that Disney backing may mean something is happening. And don't forget, no Florida electoral votes in 2012.........:zipit:

I used to live in California and an LA to SF to Sacramento bullet train makes sense. As does the Las Vegas link. Portland to Seattle also makes sense. I say build them all. :lol:

I couldn't agree with you more on the need for at least three or four regional high speed rail systems in this country, outside of the Northeast corridor. We really didn't do a good job of cultivating that concept in this country over the last 30 years. The Texans are also kicking around plans for high speed rail in their state, but they are even further behind in planning than Florida.

I don't know the price tag of a Tampa to Orlando route off the top of my head, but I would imagine it wouldn't be hugely expensive due to the easy grading and wide open space still available there. Something less than 5 Billion, I would imagine, if you can call 5 Billion "not expensive". :lol:

Trainweb.com is an excellent website for train buffs, with some great info on current and proposed rail projects in this country. There might be some interesting Florida info there.

 

[jt04]

The Las Vegas-Anaheim project is in hibernation and will be years behind California High Speed Rail. It's stalled out entirely in the last few years to be honest, mainly because the Las Vegas casinos are struggling to survive right now and they have all backed away from subsidizing any rail plan to SoCal. ARTIC will be built with the ability to expand for platforms for Las Vegas high speed rail, but no one is holding their breath.

The only viable, active high speed rail project in the nation is the one currently run by the California High Speed Rail Authority. The 9 Billion dollars in bond money it received from voters in 2008 has finally gotten it off the ground, after 15 years of planning and a solid decade of design and management. There's nothing currently in the USA even close to the financial backing and project status of California High Speed Rail. http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

Interesting. Harry Reid already had that money spent for the LV link. I guess if it's not happening the odds of the Florida project just improved. I have a good feeling about it. Those 25 electoral votes are a powerful motivator.

 

[TP2000]

Do you know what the price tag is for a rail from Tampa to Orlando?

According to the Florida High Speed Rail website, the Tampa-Orlando route is Phase One and is tagged at 3.5 Billion. I would take that figure with a grain of salt though, and wouldn't be surprised to see it double with some further study, because the planning is still in the very early stages and much work has yet to be done.

But that Tampa-Orlando route is probably the cheapest cost-per-mile leg in the nation because of the easy grading, existing right of way, and open space still available along that route. So even at 5 Billion that route would be a bargain. (The Texas plan is likely similarly inexpensive as well.) The cost-per-mile in California is double or triple the Florida routes due to grading/tunelling through mountains, urban land ownership along the route, earthquake design standards and environmental codes that are much stricter in California.

I think the Florida High Speed Rail website speaks for itself when it comes to how far along the Florida project is. Compare and contrast the Florida website with the California High Speed Rail Authority website, and you can see that Florida has a great deal of work ahead of itself, both politically and financially, to get to the same place that California is now for a statewide High Speed Rail project.

Interesting that Florida considers anything over a modest 120MPH as "high speed", while California is publicly using an international-class 220MPH standard for its system. The difference in breadth of websites speak for themselves I think;

Florida High Speed Rail
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/

California High Speed Rail Authority
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

 

[jt04]

According to the Florida High Speed Rail website, the Tampa-Orlando route is Phase One and is tagged at 3.5 Billion. I would take that figure with a grain of salt though, and wouldn't be surprised to see it double with some further study, because the planning is still in the very early stages and much work has yet to be done.

But that Tampa-Orlando route is probably the cheapest cost-per-mile leg in the nation because of the easy grading, existing right of way, and open space still available along that route. So even at 5 Billion that route would be a bargain. (The Texas plan is likely similarly inexpensive as well.) The cost-per-mile in California is double or triple the Florida routes due to grading/tunelling through mountains, urban land ownership along the route, earthquake design standards and environmental codes that are much stricter in California.

I think the Florida High Speed Rail website speaks for itself when it comes to how far along the Florida project is. Compare and contrast the Florida website with the California High Speed Rail Authority website, and you can see that Florida has a great deal of work ahead of itself, both politically and financially, to get to the same place that California is now for a statewide High Speed Rail project.

Interesting that Florida considers anything over a modest 120MPH as "high speed", while California is publicly using an international-class 220MPH standard for its system. The difference in breadth of websites speak for themselves I think;

Florida High Speed Rail
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/

California High Speed Rail Authority
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

Here is a bit more information.... http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HIGH_SPEED_RAIL_FLOL-?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

I just think the Florida project is one that there are enough funds to actually complete a project. I'd be suprised if all the money available went to one state.

Cali's system has to go that fast to compete with air travel. Tampa to Orlando is not competing but rather augmenting air travel. Just the number of tourists flying into central Florida make it seem like a potentially great investment that could have immediate and significant impact to the I-4 situation.

 

[TP2000]

Cali's system has to go that fast to compete with air travel. Tampa to Orlando is not competing but rather augmenting air travel. Just the number of tourists flying into central Florida make it seem like a potentially great investment that could have immediate and significant impact to the I-4 situation.

Not only does the 220MPH speed compete with air travel in California, but there's the price as well. According to the California High Speed Rail Authority website, the price for a bullet train ticket from Anaheim to San Francisco would be $58.00 and take just under 3 hours.

I just paid $39 for a coach ticket on Virgin America nonstop from John Wayne Airport to San Francisco Airport (SFO) in December to go see the new Walt Disney Museum at the Presidio. 8 bucks for a BART ticket from SFO to Union Square two blocks from my hotel brings the total cost to $47.00 and a trip time of just over one hour.

That's not including the price one of those fantastic Absinthe cocktails they serve on Virgin America, but that 40 minute plane ride only has time for one cocktail and maybe the cheese platter. I could do far more damage in the bar car on the 3 hour train ride.

I'm a high speed rail booster, don't get me wrong, but any High Speed Rail system in this country is going to have to be heavily subsidized by taxpayers in order to compete with the airlines. It would help if "high speed" meant something faster than just 120MPH.