Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

[TP2000]

HSR makes more sense in California, where there are numerous destinations that could benefit from it. Exactly why would anyone go from Tampa to Orlando (or vice-versa)? Florida isn't a pedestrian nirvana, so locals won't want to give up their cars. That pricing is too high...how much time would actually be saved by the traveller?

All great questions. And apparently those questions are now being asked in a louder voice after Tuesday's election.

Orlando Sentinel: Election Results Could Derail Train Projects
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...nsit-bad-news-20101103,0,1423523.story?page=1

And this little bit of embarassing news...
Orlando Sentinel: Scramble Is On To Link SunRail, Fast Rail - Why No Plan?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_high-speed-train-high-speed-rail-high-speed

Fascinating reading! Nice that they are trying to get a basic commuter heavy rail system going in Orlando metro. But really, they have no plan to link it with any other form of transportation??? No airport stop, or unified station with high speed rail, or a basic Union Station serving at the very least long distance Amtrak trains heading up the East Coast?

This should be interesting to watch unfold in 2011.

 

[jt04]

All great questions. And apparently those questions are now being asked in a louder voice after Tuesday's election.

Orlando Sentinel: Election Results Could Derail Train Projects
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...nsit-bad-news-20101103,0,1423523.story?page=1

And this little bit of embarassing news...
Orlando Sentinel: Scramble Is On To Link SunRail, Fast Rail - Why No Plan?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_high-speed-train-high-speed-rail-high-speed

Fascinating reading! Nice that they are trying to get a basic commuter heavy rail system going in Orlando metro. But really, they have no plan to link it with any other form of transportation??? No airport stop, or unified station with high speed rail, or a basic Union Station serving at the very least long distance Amtrak trains heading up the East Coast?

This should be interesting to watch unfold in 2011.

It is dead. The leak of the announcement from shortly before the election was proof that ultimately the money being spread around for these projects was first and foremost a vote buying scheme. It utterly failed that in many places, especially in Florida.

I am of the opinion the feds should fund the entire cost of the MCO to Tampa Airport HSR. This could and would be a perfect test bed to once and for all prove or disprove the viability of HSR in the states. If the federal government is not willing to finance the entire project than I think we can assume they know it is a waste of money and would expose the folly of HSR in the age of air travel.

Fortunately, soon to be Govenor Scott recognizes that this project will place too much of a burden on the tax payers of Florida and he has no desire to turn Florida into a fiscal disaster zone in the manner Cali has.

Of course there may be another option for California. So many businesses will soon be leaving California that all that highway gridlock may just magically disappear and HSR will no longer be needed there either.

 

[TP2000]

Fortunately, soon to be Govenor Scott recognizes that this project will place too much of a burden on the tax payers of Florida and he has no desire to turn Florida into a fiscal disaster zone in the manner Cali has.

Of course there may be another option for California. So many businesses will soon be leaving California that all that highway gridlock may just magically disappear and HSR will no longer be needed there either.

Cheer up jt, Governor Moonbeam was just re-elected here like it was 1974, and he's bound to get some solar panel factories going soon. Either that, or he'll just try and date Linda Ronstadt again.

Did you see what the Federal government said this week about California's high-speed rail program? The Feds are now mandating that the first segment under construction with the Billions they have given California can not be Anaheim to Los Angeles as planned, but instead needs to be Fresno to Stockton up in the Central Valley. :veryconfu This is the equivalent of saying the Florida system has to start with Jupiter to Fort Pierce and then can grow from there. This has even the most die-hard California rail boosters panicking and scratching their heads. It's a bizarre mandate, but good enough for government work I suppose.

Out of curiosity, did you take the Florida High Speed Rail survey? http://legacy.rsgsurvey.com/tots/passwordA.asp

I did, using a trip to Busch Gardens I once took in a rental car as the example. No matter the scenario or the pricing, I just couldn't come up with a way to click yes to the train at the end of the survey. Take the survey, and tell us if you were able to come up with a scenario where you would honestly click yes to the high speed train after considering the price and time commitment.

 

[jt04]

Cheer up jt, Governor Moonbeam was just re-elected here like it was 1974, and he's bound to get some solar panel factories going soon. Either that, or he'll just try and date Linda Ronstadt again.

Did you see what the Federal government said this week about California's high-speed rail program? The Feds are now mandating that the first segment under construction with the Billions they have given California can not be Anaheim to Los Angeles as planned, but instead needs to be Fresno to Stockton up in the Central Valley. :veryconfu This is the equivalent of saying the Florida system has to start with Jupiter to Fort Pierce and then can grow from there. This has even the most die-hard California rail boosters panicking and scratching their heads. It's a bizarre mandate, but good enough for government work I suppose.

Out of curiosity, did you take the Florida High Speed Rail survey? http://legacy.rsgsurvey.com/tots/passwordA.asp

I did, using a trip to Busch Gardens I once took in a rental car as the example. No matter the scenario or the pricing, I just couldn't come up with a way to click yes to the train at the end of the survey. Take the survey, and tell us if you were able to come up with a scenario where you would honestly click yes to the high speed train after considering the price and time commitment.

I don't need to take the survey to know I would never take the train. I prefer the complete freedom and flexibility a car offers. The train would help clear the roads which would be a big plus in my book. Anyway, it does not matter, HSR won't be happening in Florida so it is a moot point.

I'll be back when the DTD announcement becomes official but here is something interesting....

I have again heard a rumor that Disney may want to give DHS a similar overhaul that DCA is getting but with a big difference. DHS would actually close its gates for a year or two and receive an extreme makeover. This would avoid all the logistical issues DCA has had to deal with. Two things make me think this is a possibility even if it is only a slight chance. Kevin Yee heard some rumblings a couple years ago that Disney had such plans in a bad economy. Since it appears the US economy will not rebound for years AND Disney is having some labor cost issues I think it actually is possible. Just for the record, I'm all for fixing Disney Hollywood Studios with a complete makeover and giving it a coherent theme. Mice Age also hinted at this possibility today. I honestly think it is under serious consideration. But that is just my opinion.

Again, I will return after the DTD official announcement.

Later......

 

[SeaCastle]

I have again heard a rumor that Disney may want to give DHS a similar overhaul that DCA is getting but with a big difference. DHS would actually close its gates for a year or two and receive an extreme makeover. This would avoid all the logistical issues DCA has had to deal with. Two things make me think this is a possibility even if it is only a slight chance. Kevin Yee heard some rumblings a couple years ago that Disney had such plans in a bad economy. Since it appears the US economy will not rebound for years AND Disney is having some labor cost issues I think it actually is possible. Just for the record, I'm all for fixing Disney Hollywood Studios with a complete makeover and giving it a coherent theme. Mice Age also hinted at this possibility today. I honestly think it is under serious consideration. But that is just my opinion.

Again, I will return after the DTD official announcement.

Later......

The MiceAge post didn't "hint" at the possibility...it was simply armchair Imagineering that stemmed from them complaining about the park. DHS doesn't even appear to be in that bad of shape...at least there they can close their E-tickets for periods of time, something the Animal Kingdom management seems unwilling to do. If anything, DAK seems like the park that would receive the most attention first. I simply can't see them spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make the park "look pretty". I won't be the first one to say that the parks that are doing the worst will get the most attention (HKDL, DCA, WDSP).

The decision to bailout DCA was in no way taken lightly. From what I've read, it was something they had to do, otherwise DCA would drag the whole resort down. The Studios in Florida had nowhere near the amount of controversy surrounding it that DCA did, and I simply can't imagine that aesthetics are such a problem for the park right now that Disney is willing to dump all of that money into it to fix it. (Why not fix Animal Kingdom, which has worse attendance, a handful of attractions, and E-ticket attractions with broken effects?)

 

[prberk]

If the Disney stop is "near Celebration," wouldn't that mean that it is near the woodlands that Disney was supposed to have kept for conservation? Or is that somewhere else?

Paul

 

[TP2000]

I don't need to take the survey to know I would never take the train. I prefer the complete freedom and flexibility a car offers. The train would help clear the roads which would be a big plus in my book. Anyway, it does not matter, HSR won't be happening in Florida so it is a moot point.

I have again heard a rumor that Disney may want to give DHS a similar overhaul that DCA is getting but with a big difference. DHS would actually close its gates for a year or two and receive an extreme makeover. This would avoid all the logistical issues DCA has had to deal with. Two things make me think this is a possibility even if it is only a slight chance....

Well, a train isn't going to clear any roads if it's much cheaper and just as fast (if not faster) to drive a car directly from point A to point B. But, at least it gave windbags in Tallahassee and DC something to talk about for the last 2 years. :lol:

As for the rumor about DHS.... wow.

That rumor is definitely something to keep an eye on. Thanks for the heads up on that one. Shutting down an existing, mature theme park for at least a year would be completely unprecedented, as if the massive remake of DCA underway now wasn't already totally rewriting the book on Disney theme park operations.

Cars Land Construction at DCA - November, 2010

 

[TimeTrip]

Wow JT, those weren't the types of reponses I was expecting given previous conversations on this topic. ;-)

It seemed like in the past you were a pretty strong supporter of the HSR in Florida initiative, now it seems like you're on the other side of the fence. What happened? :-(

 

[wm49rs]

Here is the quote from MiceAge on DHS:

"Disney needs to treat this place as a theme park. It IS a theme park. It has some wonderful things but needs to come to terms with the fact that it needs to be revitalized. Disney, Please fix this park! Or perhaps even close it for a few years and redevelop it."

 

[imagineer boy]

DHS is not a bad park. It has great themeing, atmosphere, asthetics, etc. It just needs more attractions.

 

[TP2000]

DHS is not a bad park. It has great themeing, atmosphere, asthetics, etc. It just needs more attractions.

But the same thing could be said about the other three WDW parks too, especially compared to the attraction count at the two Disney theme parks in California.

 

[fillerup]

Fascinating reading! Nice that they are trying to get a basic commuter heavy rail system going in Orlando metro. But really, they have no plan to link it with any other form of transportation??? No airport stop, or unified station with high speed rail, or a basic Union Station serving at the very least long distance Amtrak trains heading up the East Coast?

This should be interesting to watch unfold in 2011.

Not to mention that Orange County has the largest single site employer in the United States (guess who), and our commuter rail won't come within five miles of the place.

I understand the funding strings from the feds that make this impossible, but what a joke.

There are a ton of poorly paid CMs who could use a cheap alternative to their automobiles.

 

[SeaCastle]

But the same thing could be said about the other three WDW parks too, especially compared to the attraction count at the two Disney theme parks in California.

But that's where the markets of both resorts are different. Tourists aren't going to want to spend a seven day vacation on a resort with two theme parks. Spending seven days at Walt Disney World seems pretty regular...though they have fewer attractions per park, you can easily spend a week at WDW and still not have time for everything (like we do). We spent two days at the Disneyland resort and had time for practically everything. That's why I don't think it's necessarily *bad* for WDW theme parks to be less dense with attractions; after all we have four parks (with four completely different experiences at each) to spread attractions out with. (Nevermind the fact that DCA got our sloppy seconds...i.e. Muppet Vision and It's Tough to be a Bug).

 

[thehowiet]

I have again heard a rumor that Disney may want to give DHS a similar overhaul that DCA is getting but with a big difference. DHS would actually close its gates for a year or two and receive an extreme makeover. This would avoid all the logistical issues DCA has had to deal with. Two things make me think this is a possibility even if it is only a slight chance. Kevin Yee heard some rumblings a couple years ago that Disney had such plans in a bad economy. Since it appears the US economy will not rebound for years AND Disney is having some labor cost issues I think it actually is possible. Just for the record, I'm all for fixing Disney Hollywood Studios with a complete makeover and giving it a coherent theme. Mice Age also hinted at this possibility today. I honestly think it is under serious consideration. But that is just my opinion.

Again, I will return after the DTD official announcement.

Later......

That's a very interesting rumor. Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure how much I believe it though. TDO is afraid to close Expedition Everest, but they are willing to shut down and entire park? DHS contains the two biggest thrill rides on property, RNRC and TT. That would be a bad situation if they were both closed for an extended period of time. It would also be odd to put all the work into the Star Tours refurb, only to close the entire park not too long after its completion.

I guess anything is possible though so we'll all just have to wait and see.

 

[jt04]

Wow JT, those weren't the types of reponses I was expecting given previous conversations on this topic. ;-)

It seemed like in the past you were a pretty strong supporter of the HSR in Florida initiative, now it seems like you're on the other side of the fence. What happened? :-(

Actually if you go back and read my take on it again I think you will see it has not changed much. I want the HSR between Orlando to Tampa to happen as designed. I just think the federal government should fund it. (The state of Florida is providing the right of way). Before we fund piecemeal HSR projects around the country that only turn into "rails to nowhere" projects that only serve to lock states into what are essentially open ended government funded jobs programs, we need to know if HSR is viable in this country. The Florida project would prove or disprove HSR. And I have explained a few times why I think that. Personally I believe the HSR push has been nothing but a scheme to get votes and whether it is needed is low on the priority list of those pushing it. Florida citizens are too smart to fall for this stuff as the election proved. But if the federal government wanted to fund the project (as I think they should for the reasons I stated) then I doubt few Floridians would complain.


Also, about the DHS rumor I wanted to clarify a bit. Kevin Yee did not state they could close the gates to transform the park but rather Disney had plans in exceptionally poor economies to have park closings as a means to limit losses.

Yesterday's Miceage update had a DHS section where someone spelled out the problems at the park and suggested Disney close it and fix it. Since the election has only caused the believers in non-private sector economic solutions to dig in their heels it is obvious an economic recovery is at least two years away. They deliberately want a stagnate economy to create dependency and grow government. A showdown is coming. Economic recovery is not.

But in the meantime Disney could solve two problems by closing the Studios gates. They could slash overhead and protect profits. They could also fix the park and have it ready for the time in which the belivers in market economics regain power and jobs begin to be created again.

Obviously it would not close before at least the first phase of the FLE is complete. So I could never see them doing this before early 2012. But this is likely to be how it would look once it reopened....

The BAH would be long gone.
The current "main street" would be spruced up as would sunset. These sections would reflect Hollywood of the 30's and 40's respectively.
The Great Movie Ride would redone and be much more Disneyfied.
Little Mermaid would be gone.
American Idol will have seen its last show.
Indiana Jones will leave for new "Adventures" elsewhere.
The BLT will leave never to return.
The entire "working studio" backstory will only exist in "Yesterland"
Tower of Terror's Twilight Zone treatment will only exist in, well, people's imaginations.
Aerosmith will have played their last encore.
HISTK playground will be gone to a nearby resort.
LMA gone and then forgotten.
Sounds Dangerous silenced.

And what would be new?

My guess would be Carsland where the Indy show is or where the BLT is.
An expanded Pixar Place with monsters taking over a large section on New York street. Possibly including a relocated laugh floor and the rumored coaster in sound stage one.
All half done facades completed everywhere.
A muppets section including a muppet themed restaurant and possibly a dark ride in addition to the current show.
WoC added to the LMA stadium. If this area is not large enough then WoC could be added to the IJ stadium utilizing as much as the parking lot as necessary. Carsland could be added where the BLT is now.
Toontown added as an extension to the Animation Courtyard.
New Disney related themes for ToT and RnRC.
New Disneyland-esque Fantasmic.
New shows for the AI theater and Sounds Dangeous location.

Obviously closing the park for 18 to 24 months would be necessary but just think how much better it would be.



Hopefully this helps clarify things. I do think it is possible.

Now I really am leaving until the big big DTD announcement which was promised very soon! Very soon. Like this week maybe. :xmas:

 

[imagineer boy]

Blegh, I don't like many of those proposed changes at all.

Thankfully its coming from jt04, so we shoudln't have too much to worry about. :lol:

 

[SeaCastle]

Actually if you go back and read my take on it again I think you will see it has not changed much. I want the HSR between Orlando to Tampa to happen as designed. I just think the federal government should fund it. (The state of Florida is providing the right of way). Before we fund piecemeal HSR projects around the country that only turn into "rails to nowhere" projects that only serve to lock states into what are essentially open ended government funded jobs programs, we need to know if HSR is viable in this country. The Florida project would prove or disprove HSR. And I have explained a few times why I think that. Personally I believe the HSR push has been nothing but a scheme to get votes and whether it is needed is low on the priority list of those pushing it. Florida citizens are too smart to fall for this stuff as the election proved. But if the federal government wanted to fund the project (as I think they should for the reasons I stated) then I doubt few Floridians would complain.


Also, about the DHS rumor I wanted to clarify a bit. Kevin Yee did not state they could close the gates to transform the park but rather Disney had plans in exceptionally poor economies to have park closings as a means to limit losses.

Closing the park to refurbish it and closing the park to limit losses are two completely different things. One happening doesn't necessarily insinuate the other happening.

Yesterday's Miceage update had a DHS section where someone spelled out the problems at the park and suggested Disney close it and fix it. Since the election has only caused the believers in non-private sector economic solutions to dig in their heels it is obvious an economic recovery is at least two years away. They deliberately want a stagnate economy to create dependency and grow government. A showdown is coming. Economic recovery is not.

That's not what you said before...you said yesterday's Miceage update hinted at the park closing to refurbish it (which it didn't). I'm not following how your political opinions are helping your argument that MGM is getting a bailout.

But in the meantime Disney could solve two problems by closing the Studios gates. They could slash overhead and protect profits. They could also fix the park and have it ready for the time in which the belivers in market economics regain power and jobs begin to be created again.

Why DHS? Why not DAK? It seems more likely that the Animal Kingdom gets more capital investment than DHS. Why close a park when attendance is flat? Wouldn't closing a park give people less of an incentive to stay longer and spend more at WDW? How do we know DHS isn't a cash cow for Disney? You seem to be assuming a lot.

Obviously it would not close before at least the first phase of the FLE is complete. So I could never see them doing this before early 2012. But this is likely to be how it would look once it reopened....

The BAH would be long gone.
The current "main street" would be spruced up as would sunset. These sections would reflect Hollywood of the 30's and 40's respectively. How do Hollywood and Sunset Boulevard not represent this now? Isn't Sunset Boulevard already a representation of World War II era Hollywood?
The Great Movie Ride would redone and be much more Disneyfied. Why would GMR need to be Disneyfied?
Little Mermaid would be gone.
American Idol will have seen its last show. Why would they need to close the park for both of these?
Indiana Jones will leave for new "Adventures" elsewhere. Nothing we've heard indicates Indy leaving, and why would it have to if there is ample space for it without tearing down an existing attraction?
The BLT will leave never to return. Couldn't they just close the park off in phases, and keep the parts that aren't being worked on open?
The entire "working studio" backstory will only exist in "Yesterland". What suggests this will happen?
Tower of Terror's Twilight Zone treatment will only exist in, well, people's imaginations.
Aerosmith will have played their last encore. Why? What indicates this will happen? What would be the benefit of completely refurbishing two of the park's most popular rides just to get rid of their already popular backstories?
HISTK playground will be gone to a nearby resort. What? Everything we heard points to this being turned into "It's Tough to be a Bug" themed.
LMA gone and then forgotten. How do you know this is a priority to close? Why shutter a venue that's only five years old and is apparently popular with the crowds?
Sounds Dangerous silenced. This seems to be a given, but why close the whole park to change it out?

And what would be new?

My guess would be Carsland where the Indy show is or where the BLT is.
An expanded Pixar Place with monsters taking over a large section on New York street. Possibly including a relocated laugh floor and the rumored coaster in sound stage one. New York Street is on the other side of Soundstage 1 , what presence would it have there? For the record, we had always heard of Radiator Springs Racers heading to where the Backlot Tour is now, in your bailout plan what thematical sense would it make to have Carsland on the other side of the park from where all of the Pixar properties are represented?
All half done facades completed everywhere.
A muppets section including a muppet themed restaurant and possibly a dark ride in addition to the current show.
WoC added to the LMA stadium. If this area is not large enough then WoC could be added to the IJ stadium utilizing as much as the parking lot as necessary. Carsland could be added where the BLT is now.
Toontown added as an extension to the Animation Courtyard.
New Disney related themes for ToT and RnRC.
New Disneyland-esque Fantasmic. How would our Fantasmic be like Disneyland's? Hasn't it reported that Fantasmic has been receiving Back of House upgrades?
New shows for the AI theater and Sounds Dangeous location.

Obviously closing the park for 18 to 24 months would be necessary but just think how much better it would be.

How much better it would be for...you? This just sounds like your representation of what you think is best for the Studios.

Responses in bold.

This sounds more like a fanboi wet dream than anything else. What indications have we seen of any of this happening? I'm sorry, but I just can't see Disney dumping multiple hundreds of millions of dollars to fix a park that's not broken. DHS isn't DCA, and is not riddled with it's issues. DCA's bailout was unprecedented and I just can't see any incentive for Disney to do the same to a park that has nearly double the attendance that DCA does.

 

[JEANYLASER]

I hope it's true!

 

[unkadug]

I hope it's true!

You hope what is true? This thread has taken so many twists and turns that your statement needs clarification. Otherwise I'm to surmise that you are referring to the political climate of Florida compared to the political climate of California juxtaposed against the anti-Disney faction of the KKK lobbying for the repeal of the 14th amendment.

 

[bugsbunny]

Rail is DEAD....PERIOD. On the East Coast, it cannot be ran for a profit or probably anywhere else in the U.S. Land is too expensive and the infrastructure is too old to maintain. They don't have money to maintain the existing, so they cannot find money to build new. Nobody wants to ride the train, so building a new one certainly won't suddenly make people decide to ride it instead of driving.

And building new does not mean more efficiency or benefit. The right of way for rail might be there, but the right to travel any faster than 25mph probably isn't...so why bother?

Rail is not considered public infrastructure where it can be completely funded, like an interstate highway system. Or if it gets funded to get built, it cannot be ran for a profit and suffers in every aspect of cleanliness, scheduling, etc. When your whole purpose to move people conveniently and quickly, it gets nullified when you can't run tracks or build a station where you want to or if it takes longer AND more expensive by rail then it does by car.

As an example, if me, my wife, and son take Amtrak from here in Philadelphia to Orlando.....brace yourself for this.....

21 HOURS to get there, $300 for seats (yeah...21 hours in a seat with a 6 yr old)
or $700 for a 2 person room or $1100 for a suite....ONE WAY!
A round trip by train from Philly to Orlando and back is 40+ hours and about $1400+ So the train is 2000% longer than flying for me and about 150% longer than driving! I can fly round trip from PHL to MCO for $400-600, depending on sales, and its 2 hours each way!

I can't imagine what building light rail will do in Florida or anywhere else even seems remotely attractive. People simply WANT to sit in traffic versus giving up their freedom through the inconvenience and inefficiencies of rail travel, IMHO.