Disney fires IT workers and replaces them with foreign workers

[CaptainAmerica]

I love how Disney can spin "outsourcing maintenance and upkeep" to 'allowing our people to focus on innovation'. Nothing more than outsourcing the more commodity roles to save money. The classic thinking about how undervalued support really is.

Political climate aside, outsourcing rudimentary functions with limited "soft skill" requirements is perfectly appropriate. I'm not a technical professional so I don't know what all of the roles are called, but a coder can sit in India with minimal impact to product quality. Something like support might be better to keep domestic but perhaps in more of a shared services model. Line-of-business specific tasks like project management should be kept in-house and close to the operators. On the finance side (the world I know), it's the difference between bookkeepers (outsource or automate), accountants (shared service), and analysts/planners (keep close to the business).

 

[Nubs70]

I've been fortunate enough to work with truly brilliant Indian engineers who do integrate and communicate well however these people are usually graduates of IIT (India Institute of Technology) or a major US or European university so these Indians are usually green card holders or citizens in their own right not the run of the mill H1B drones.

You are correct this is ALL about MONEY, Lots of highly qualified engineers in the EU but they demand salaries commensurate with their skills, But it's a lot cheaper to pay TATA or Infosys 60K for a body who gets paid 10-20,000 after 'fees and expenses' who lives in a company dorm.

I am SICK of the Crony Capitalists who are destroying the US job market at both the low and high ends of the scale.

I have to admit I must have been exposed to H1B drones.

 

[flynnibus]

Political climate aside, outsourcing rudimentary functions with limited "soft skill" requirements is perfectly appropriate. I'm not a technical professional so I don't know what all of the roles are called, but a coder can sit in India with minimal impact to product quality.

Correct, you are not a technical professional. Your comment echos common misconceptions about what it takes to build effective teams. I encourage you to go through the slidedeck I posted earlier in the thread for some of the touchpoints of interest (tho its harder without the actual lecturer).

And as someone who manages and develops in programs that span everything from just east/west coast... to global programs including china, india, europe, UK, texas, cali, colorado, washington, all CONCURRENTLY.. I am very well versed in what improves or hurts software development and lifecycles. Effective IT is more than just having a list of capable individuals on your payroll.

My position is not about domestic vs foreign... the position is about how to build effective teams and deliver products and services with success. No technology on earth yet has solved time zones. In addition, no technology yet matches the power of dropping in someones office and sitting at the desk together.

On the finance side (the world I know), it's the difference between bookkeepers (outsource or automate), accountants (shared service), and analysts/planners (keep close to the business).

Know the difference? The first two categories you list are simply 'grind' operations. Follow the process, be diligent and trust worthy. There is very little need for creativity or engagement to do basic finance work. But as you note, as you move up the ladder, where you want more DECISIONS and soft-choices made.. you want it internal. The problem with ineffective organizations is when they think roles are those simple 'manpower' categories they can scale, move or swap around.. when they really aren't.

 

[Nubs70]

Real wages, labor force participation, and employment rates are all stagnant or going in the wrong direction not because businesses are evil but because the supply of labor is artificially high.

Yet businesses are crying that they cannot find qualified candidates, particularly in STEM fields. It is my firm belief that there are many potential candidates that only need a modicum of training. The problem is businesses want low wage individuals rather than paying for experienced engineers. On boarding an experienced engineer will bring life experience that has a huge benefit in an agile workplace.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Yet businesses are crying that they cannot find qualified candidates, particularly in STEM fields. It is my firm belief that there are many potential candidates that only need a modicum of training. The problem is businesses want low wage individuals rather than paying for experienced engineers. On boarding an experienced engineer will bring life experience that has a huge benefit in an agile workplace.

And neither political party is helping. Democrats are happy to import labor via (legal and illegal) immigration because it's a winning political issue with Hispanic voters. But that labor is generally unskilled. Meanwhile, the Jeb Bush and Karl Rove wing of the Republican Party is in the pocket of the Chamber of Commerce and the Wall Street Journal editorial page, all of whom love the cheap labor because it makes their donors happy.

 

[ford91exploder]

I have to admit I must have been exposed to H1B drones.

The majority of the Indians I personally work with hold doctorates and/or multiple masters degrees and the majority of them are older 35-60 or so. My experience is not the 'common' Indian IT worker. Worked in one government facility where the Indians were indeed the stereotypical H1B it was not a pretty sight or an effective workplace.

 

[ford91exploder]

Wow we agree on something. My mistake for assuming that your earlier comments about how "DC needs to fix this" were about wage laws and restrictions on what businesses were allowed to do. Unfortunately, we're in a political climate where we're not even allowed to talk about reducing the flow of illegal immigration, let alone putting restrictions on legal immigration. This is the only time in history that America has had a functional "open borders" policy and it's extremely detrimental to the economy as a whole. Real wages, labor force participation, and employment rates are all stagnant or going in the wrong direction not because businesses are evil but because the supply of labor is artificially high.

I think you will find we agree on many things, But the biggest problem in the US is the overfinancialization of the economy. And we have a open borders policy because the financial sector likes 'cheap labor' which in terms of societal costs is by no means cheap. And one of the political party likes the votes from the unskilled immigrants as it grants them power which is funded by the financial sector.

A neat self sustaining system but the riots in Baltimore are the ultimate outcome as a formerly favored protected group is abandoned in favor of another who are perceived as 'more likely' to vote for them.

 

[alphac2005]

And neither political party is helping. Democrats are happy to import labor via (legal and illegal) immigration because it's a winning political issue with Hispanic voters. But that labor is generally unskilled. Meanwhile, the Jeb Bush and Karl Rove wing of the Republican Party is in the pocket of the Chamber of Commerce and the Wall Street Journal editorial page, all of whom love the cheap labor because it makes their donors happy.

You're exactly right. (See, we can all find lots of common ground here. ) What I think is important is that the narrative that media chooses to focus on is low paying labor especially Mexican immigration when the real immigration issues that are economically hitting Americans relates to the abuse of worker programs by our crony capitalists.

The sad truth of it is that we're all helpless unless money gets out of politics and with a Chief Justice that is for even further loosening of the political flood of money, we don't have a chance for what would be decades. I will note, though, that he wrote the opinion blocking Judges from directly soliciting for campaign cash. A good friend of mine ran recently for such a post and it's quite an operation. Said friend couldn't solicit directly and had to hire finance directors that basically took his (old school here) Rolodex of contacts and they did the job for him. He didn't have to deal with asking people for money and the favors that those who donate want, but had to spend a large period of time dealing with the finance side of the campaign.

 

[Unplugged]

That's hysterical englanddg! I firmly believe that most companies like Disney see their IT staff as something out of The IT Crowd.

 

[ford91exploder]

That's hysterical englanddg! I firmly believe that most companies like Disney see their IT staff as something out of The IT Crowd.

Yes unfortunately most companies view IT as on the level of janitorial service these days, Yet the most successful companies use IT as one of the key drivers of their business.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Yes unfortunately most companies view IT as on the level of janitorial service these days, Yet the most successful companies use IT as one of the key drivers of their business.

That's entirely dependent on the industry. For many, IT is a support function. It can enable and enhance growth but not cause it on its own.

We also need to be careful when we use the term "IT". The popular press and casual conversation often lumps anything that has to do with electricty as "IT". I make a distinction between traditional IT services (voice, data, video, presence, storage, etc.) and more product-oriented engineering type work.

 

[Nubs70]

That's entirely dependent on the industry. For many, IT is a support function. It can enable and enhance growth but not cause it on its own.

We also need to be careful when we use the term "IT". The popular press and casual conversation often lumps anything that has to do with electricty as "IT". I make a distinction between traditional IT services (voice, data, video, presence, storage, etc.) and more product-oriented engineering type work.

IT is an essential part of any business. IT is the source of competitive advantage without would slow the business down to the point the cost of labor and missed opportunity would put most businesses out of business.

 

[englanddg]

Correct, you are not a technical professional. Your comment echos common misconceptions about what it takes to build effective teams. I encourage you to go through the slidedeck I posted earlier in the thread for some of the touchpoints of interest (tho its harder without the actual lecturer).

And as someone who manages and develops in programs that span everything from just east/west coast... to global programs including china, india, europe, UK, texas, cali, colorado, washington, all CONCURRENTLY.. I am very well versed in what improves or hurts software development and lifecycles. Effective IT is more than just having a list of capable individuals on your payroll.

My position is not about domestic vs foreign... the position is about how to build effective teams and deliver products and services with success. No technology on earth yet has solved time zones. In addition, no technology yet matches the power of dropping in someones office and sitting at the desk together.



Know the difference? The first two categories you list are simply 'grind' operations. Follow the process, be diligent and trust worthy. There is very little need for creativity or engagement to do basic finance work. But as you note, as you move up the ladder, where you want more DECISIONS and soft-choices made.. you want it internal. The problem with ineffective organizations is when they think roles are those simple 'manpower' categories they can scale, move or swap around.. when they really aren't.

Inwas going to respond to the same comment, but flynn summed it up nicely.

I will state that yes, certain support functions are more efficient as a shared service outsource. For example, printers. Telecom for hardware support is likewise easier to outsource.

However, systems which directly integrate with operations and are customized (or their use is specific) are always best kept in house.

In ny organization we have tried outsourcing the helpdesk a few times. Once overseas (god, that was a nightmare), once to a large domestic based firm (likewise a nightmare) and once to a local firm (again, a nightmare).

We have very few IT issues...most of our tickets revolve around things that are industry and ise specific. For example, nomatter how good a knowledge base you construct, users want to be able to talk their language to a tech who understands it. Problems get resolved faster, and user frustration is lower.

Thinking even a low level IT support role is equivelant to Data Entry (which is basically what a bookkeeper is) reveals a gross misunderstanding of not only IT, but the role it should play supporting and streamlining an organization.

There really are no roles in IT that can directly corrolate to a data entry style position. And if you treat them as such...you may see a short term savings, but in the long run youll run into issues.

What Disney is doing is slightly different than pure outsourcing...but what it will save potentially in lower grade salaries, it will potentially lose in efficiency and overall user satisfaction.

I have an outsource group I use for AGI programming in India. A simple project that should have taken about a week, took around six months. I gave them a very detailed step by step document that outlined what I wanted, and I even wrote all the systems interface (it communicated with three external systems) for them. But, while they were knowledgable, and decent to communicate with (though always on a 12+ hour delay), I spent more time managing them than if I had just taken a few weeks off and did a crash course in Perl and AGI.

Or, better yet, had an outsource expert come work with me face to face for a few days as a collaborative development.

 

[englanddg]

That's hysterical englanddg! I firmly believe that most companies like Disney see their IT staff as something out of The IT Crowd.

It is part of a longer movie that you can find on youtube. The "manager" he transfers the guy to at the end is really his brother watching soccer on TV and drinking a beer in the next room.

Its pretty funny.

 

[englanddg]

That's entirely dependent on the industry. For many, IT is a support function. It can enable and enhance growth but not cause it on its own.

We also need to be careful when we use the term "IT". The popular press and casual conversation often lumps anything that has to do with electricty as "IT". I make a distinction between traditional IT services (voice, data, video, presence, storage, etc.) and more product-oriented engineering type work.

I think the confusion comes more from non-technical people who are completely oblivious to what IT does and how it can benefit the company, and therefore confuse consumer electronics and products for Business IT and Systems.

They are two completely different animals.

Dead giveaways of this mentality are people who stay stuff like:

"Geez, can't you just build an app for that?"
"My kid is a wiz with computers, you should see how quickly he installed Minecraft, it's amazing what he's done there."
"Can you take a look at (insert personal consumer electronic device)?"

...list...goes...on...

In my own personal experience, I have an in house POS/CRM system that I've developed. We work in retail insurance, mostly Personal Lines, but we have a growing Commercial Lines business. They (Sales and Operations) don't like my POS/CRM system for that. Why? Well, because I designed it around Personal Lines. So, it's built around their work flow, and I programmed it by literally sitting down with Agents a few days and doing their jobs with them.

Could my system be expanded to serve Commercial Lines better? Sure. But, I'll need to be educated more about what exactly they need. And, a short e-mail or a few sentences in a group meeting doesn't cut it.

So, instead, we are going with an off the shelf SaaS product that does nothing that we want exceptionally well, but does do things my system will not. They aren't happy about it, but refuse to put in the time to educate me (the programmer) as to what they really desire.

Many places see this as a failure of IT to support their needs (including my company, which is very dedicated to in house IT)...but, the fallacy comes when they begin to BLAME IT for this, and then come to one of two conclusions.

1) Why are we paying so much for IT when they don't do what we need?
2) We should just outsource it all?

And, the core of this, related to my original statement, is a sheer misunderstanding of the difference between consumer electronics/products and IT Systems (and I'll note a complete disregard to data integrity and security...there's a reason why major data breaches have increased as more has been shipped out).

 

[George]

It is part of a longer movie that you can find on youtube. The "manager" he transfers the guy to at the end is really his brother watching soccer on TV and drinking a beer in the next room.

Its pretty funny.

Roy's line, "Are you from the past?", has made me laugh countless times.

 

[Sassagoula-Rvr]

Kind of interesting as someone in the industry...I'm not located near WDW so I don't have much Disney IT experience...but a few times I have crossed paths with people who have either worked for the mouse or near the mouse...and it seems like they always mention Disney's IT compensation being fairly poor.

Like I said, maybe they were just disgruntled employees.

I'll tell you one thing though....as someone with software/web design experience...if I delivered a feature like connecting friends and family on MDE by using their confirmation number...which failed literally 100% of the time (Am I just that unlucky? I tried it multiple days on different accounts...ALWAYS erred out)....my rear would be toast.

And I'm just a one man "team"...it blows my mind that someone like Disney...with presumably large teams and relatively unlimited dev. resources...can't get stuff to work.

 

[ford91exploder]

I sympathize. It stinks, and I worry about the type of employment my kids will someday find reasonably secure and worthwhile. Unfortunately, none of us are safe from competition. Read Alan Friedman's The World Is Flat for the lowdown. Global competition for jobs in the electronic age is scary.

Interestingly enough this is a largely US-centric trend, As a US Citizen just TRY getting a job in India or even Mexico.

 

[jlsHouston]

Well, now I understand why the website sucks more this year than last year, why the app was no less glitchy this past April than it was last August...I just hope no one in management at TWDC saw the post with the indian call center video and got any ideas...

 

[the.dreamfinder]

A new report from The New York Times on the outsourcing episode.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...off-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html