Disney fires IT workers and replaces them with foreign workers

alphac2005

Well-Known Member
Exactly the opposite. I'm viewing the situation globally. An outsourced job lost by a guy in California is a job gained by a guy in Bangalore. You're only focusing on the negative side of that equation when, in reality, it's perfectly balanced. To justify your position, you'd need to successfully argue that the Californian is somehow entitled to that job while the Indian is not.

Part of the big picture is missing here, though. The world has a massive population and if countries such as India can deal with their multitude of inept states and Modi is able to push through many of his reforms, the country doesn't need to be an outsourcing farm. The same goes for China as both countries long-term economic success is in their populations being consumers and not focusing on creating goods or providing services to Western countries, but having successful economies internally and having them being self-sustaining with their massive populations.

Stating the following is a cheap shot: "To justify your position, you'd need to successfully argue that the Californian is somehow entitled to that job while the Indian is not."

That's not the point of what many are saying and see my aforementioned comments.

Outsourcing is about one thing: MONEY. Period. It's about profiteering. As @PhotoDave219 stated, companies should help serve their local communities. You speak of that being a naive notion in the 21st century. The problem is that if those mechanisms collapse, it furthers the complete corporate takeover of this country and most major industrial age countries.

As for manufacturing, take clothing. We've gone from producing 70% of our own clothing in the States to less than 2% in two decades. We now get cheap garbage clothing made by nothing short of slave labor from Vietnam, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, etc. That wasn't done to help America, it was done to help Wall St. I'm fortunate that I can afford to buy clothing that is of high quality, which lasts a long time, and actually costs me less in the long-term, but it's becoming more difficult every year to find good quality products and there is a limit to what I'm willing to spend. We're basically stuck between a $10 shirt or a $100 one and very little quality difference in-between.

If you ask most Americans, they'd say that we manufacture next to nothing. It's actually not the case at all. The U.S. manufactures the greatest number of high-tech and high end technology components in the world, but these products require virtually no human labor. So, what we manufacture is basically done by machines and everything else is done by third world employees. A flip argument would be that these people get lifted out of third world status, but the reality is that most are paid a pittance and are virtual property of their factories.

It's all about money and that should be clear to all.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
It would be rather disingenuous to say that the "replacement" IT workers are an inferior substitute. Disney may in fact be getting superior employees for a lesser price just because of the difference in the cost of living. There are many top notched universities in India and competition to even get in the door is fierce. Remember that the Indian middle class population is well over 300 million. There will be some economic impact due to the time difference, but for the majority of IT work is design and development which have longer time frames and not time zone dependent. Only the sustainment phase is time zone dependent as problems need to be fixed as soon as possible.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
It would be rather disingenuous to say that the "replacement" IT workers are an inferior substitute. Disney may in fact be getting superior employees for a lesser price just because of the difference in the cost of living. There are many top notched universities in India and competition to even get in the door is fierce. Remember that the Indian middle class population is well over 300 million. There will be some economic impact due to the time difference, but for the majority of IT work is design and development which have longer time frames and not time zone dependent. Only the sustainment phase is time zone dependent as problems need to be fixed as soon as possible.
I would have to disagree.

I have worked with Indian engineers and they are not exceptionally brilliant. They may seem brilliant in that they rose to the surface of a country of 1 billion people. The main failure of Indian engineers is their lack of communication ability and failure to integrate with the team.

I have also worked with German engineers and they are brilliant, communicate well, and integrate instantly.

Why do we see a huge influx of Indian engineers and not German engineers? I comes down to cost. Indians will provide adequate, but not great, work at the fraction of the cost of superior work.

If those who want to import labor were so concerned about opportunity of those in the US, they need to lobby for expat tax reform. By eliminating the double taxation, US engineers would be more able to bring their skills to other countries.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Why not really push that one? A new India pavilion could feature a dark ride to learn about IT. Starts with an American family at a PC, goes through a lights out data center (just a bunch of LEDs), then features an Indian call center and ocean of developer cubicles. Since outsourcing is cheaper than animatronics, it could be a real full functioning call center. No to mention the cool rat Temple that eliminates the need for exterminators.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Okay Titans of Industry. Let's play this out. You run a company. Dude A does a job for $80,000 per year. Dude B does the same job for $30,000 per year. Which one are you going to go with? Even if Dude B is worse, he'd need to be substantially worse for you to pay the premium for Dude A.

Spreadsheet thinking like that is what gets these companies in such trouble. Reminds me of the execs who think people are just pawns to move around the board whenever needed... or the ones that think you solve velocity problems by just adding more resources, etc. The way to build successful teams is far more than about what salaries are. Paying the wrong person anything is far more important than what you pay the right person.

Unfortunately this is only the slides and not a recording of one of the sessions... but take some time to read through a lecture from one of my friends. There is a lot in here that most managers don't get.. and they are facinated by watching the outcome, but can't digest why one team can do something another can't.

http://www.pvv.org/~oma/EmbraceUncertainty_Mar2013.pdf
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I would have to disagree.

I have worked with Indian engineers and they are not exceptionally brilliant. They may seem brilliant in that they rose to the surface of a country of 1 billion people. The main failure of Indian engineers is their lack of communication ability and failure to integrate with the team.

I have also worked with German engineers and they are brilliant, communicate well, and integrate instantly.

Why do we see a huge influx of Indian engineers and not German engineers? I comes down to cost. Indians will provide adequate, but not great, work at the fraction of the cost of superior work.

If those who want to import labor were so concerned about opportunity of those in the US, they need to lobby for expat tax reform. By eliminating the double taxation, US engineers would be more able to bring their skills to other countries.

I've been fortunate enough to work with truly brilliant Indian engineers who do integrate and communicate well however these people are usually graduates of IIT (India Institute of Technology) or a major US or European university so these Indians are usually green card holders or citizens in their own right not the run of the mill H1B drones.

You are correct this is ALL about MONEY, Lots of highly qualified engineers in the EU but they demand salaries commensurate with their skills, But it's a lot cheaper to pay TATA or Infosys 60K for a body who gets paid 10-20,000 after 'fees and expenses' who lives in a company dorm.

I am SICK of the Crony Capitalists who are destroying the US job market at both the low and high ends of the scale.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Spreadsheet thinking like that is what gets these companies in such trouble. Reminds me of the execs who think people are just pawns to move around the board whenever needed... or the ones that think you solve velocity problems by just adding more resources, etc. The way to build successful teams is far more than about what salaries are. Paying the wrong person anything is far more important than what you pay the right person.

Unfortunately this is only the slides and not a recording of one of the sessions... but take some time to read through a lecture from one of my friends. There is a lot in here that most managers don't get.. and they are facinated by watching the outcome, but can't digest why one team can do something another can't.

http://www.pvv.org/~oma/EmbraceUncertainty_Mar2013.pdf

Exactly and it shows why a tightly integrated team of a few individuals can frequently beat a team of hundreds at the same task.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=2591&c=10771&f=4327553

26 minutes in or so, if anyone is curious.

And...yeah, he...wasn't very...kind at all...

I was listening to it on Sirius and he was not kind at all, Especially since Iger sits on a presidential board which is tasked with creating high tech jobs in the US. Iger is once again exposed as a crony capitalist of the worst sort.

Also explains why DHS is not willing to investigate a very clear abuse of the H1B program as the alleged violator is directly associated with POTUS.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes

Lets not forget that until England provided the Indian subcontinent a common language it was still composed of city states and over 461 distinct languages without and easy means to freely exchange information.

We don't have coal miners, fishwives, bagmen, bunters, hucksters, or nightmen prowling the United Kingdom in Epcot even though they are applicable as well.

The issue is a legal business decision on where to hire and maintain employees. Politics get involved when people that vote believe that business should be forced to utilize more expensive employees located in a particular geographic region that provide the same function.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Wage arbitrage is very nice for a while, What happens when because of job losses in the 'high employment cost' market most people can no longer afford your products and services in that market. Well the results are not pretty usually involves civil insurrection and politicians and business leaders dangling from lampposts.

Henry Ford was no socialist yet he doubled his employees wages so they could afford to buy the cars he was building.

I'm not a supporter of 'minimum wages' I am a supporter of restricting immigration while the labor market has historically low labor force participation so Adam Smith's 'Invisible Hand' has a chance to operate - not as the Crony Capitalists do inflate the labor supply to drive down wages.

I'm an advocate of a system like Canada or Australia where the government has selective immigration policies and if you want a work permit or to immigrate the Government decides whether it can absorb you, Because in times of high unemployment there STILL exist shortages of certain skills and people with those skills are encouraged to emigrate, Those without those skills are turned away as it should be.

A Governments FIRST duty is the security and well being of it's citizens and that includes ECONOMIC security as well as PHYSICAL security.
 

Ralphlaw

Well-Known Member
I sympathize. It stinks, and I worry about the type of employment my kids will someday find reasonably secure and worthwhile. Unfortunately, none of us are safe from competition. Read Alan Friedman's The World Is Flat for the lowdown. Global competition for jobs in the electronic age is scary.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Wage arbitrage is very nice for a while, What happens when because of job losses in the 'high employment cost' market most people can no longer afford your products and services in that market. Well the results are not pretty usually involves civil insurrection and politicians and business leaders dangling from lampposts.

Henry Ford was no socialist yet he doubled his employees wages so they could afford to buy the cars he was building.

I'm not a supporter of 'minimum wages' I am a supporter of restricting immigration while the labor market has historically low labor force participation so Adam Smith's 'Invisible Hand' has a chance to operate - not as the Crony Capitalists do inflate the labor supply to drive down wages.

I'm an advocate of a system like Canada or Australia where the government has selective immigration policies and if you want a work permit or to immigrate the Government decides whether it can absorb you, Because in times of high unemployment there STILL exist shortages of certain skills and people with those skills are encouraged to emigrate, Those without those skills are turned away as it should be.

A Governments FIRST duty is the security and well being of it's citizens and that includes ECONOMIC security as well as PHYSICAL security.
Wow we agree on something. My mistake for assuming that your earlier comments about how "DC needs to fix this" were about wage laws and restrictions on what businesses were allowed to do. Unfortunately, we're in a political climate where we're not even allowed to talk about reducing the flow of illegal immigration, let alone putting restrictions on legal immigration. This is the only time in history that America has had a functional "open borders" policy and it's extremely detrimental to the economy as a whole. Real wages, labor force participation, and employment rates are all stagnant or going in the wrong direction not because businesses are evil but because the supply of labor is artificially high.
 

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