Disney fires IT workers and replaces them with foreign workers

[EpcoTim]

A new report from The New York Times on the outsourcing episode.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...off-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html

This is the best part of the article:

"Disney executives said the layoffs were part of a reorganization of technology operations to focus on producing more innovations. They said the company opened more positions than it eliminated, with a net gain of 70 tech jobs."

Outsourcing cheap labor to produce innovation--that's a good one.

 

[majortom1981]

This is the best part of the article:

"Disney executives said the layoffs were part of a reorganization of technology operations to focus on producing more innovations. They said the company opened more positions than it eliminated, with a net gain of 70 tech jobs."

Outsourcing cheap labor to produce innovation--that's a good one.

the article said a lot of them were porgrammers. I am in IT but I like to go to Disney. Since I started going to Disney in 2005 religiously their website and software have stunk. I know hardware wise its better inhouse but disneys site and other things haven't been great with the inhouse crew.

I can see that Disney felt that they can at least save money at the worsrt. At best they might get a better product. I bet it would have been different if disneys site and other systems were very good.

 

[englanddg]

This is the best part of the article:

"Disney executives said the layoffs were part of a reorganization of technology operations to focus on producing more innovations. They said the company opened more positions than it eliminated, with a net gain of 70 tech jobs."

Outsourcing cheap labor to produce innovation--that's a good one.

Innovative bottom lines...thats "innovation" to MBAs who buy into this stuff.

 

[PhilharMagician]

This is the best part of the article:

"Disney executives said the layoffs were part of a reorganization of technology operations to focus on producing more innovations. They said the company opened more positions than it eliminated, with a net gain of 70 tech jobs."

Outsourcing cheap labor to produce innovation--that's a good one.

I think that is quite an innovative way for Iger to increase his bonus for next year!

 

[flynnibus]

I can see that Disney felt that they can at least save money at the worsrt. At best they might get a better product. I bet it would have been different if disneys site and other systems were very good.

These aren't responses to stability/etc lately in MM+... those projects are largely outsourced to begin with. And anyone that says "my coders need to improve quality.. lets just contract it out instead" is insane.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Had to train foreign replacements? Very interesting read. Thoughts?
Sorry I could not put the article here, on my phone and it's not working so here's the link.
NYT Now: Last Task After Layoff at Disney: Train Foreign Replacements

http://nyti.ms/1QpxBKZ

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Sorry,didn't see earlier post. Delete if you wish Steve.

 

[LAKid53]

Speaking of Disney websites, any reason why there is no log in box on the top of the DVC member page? I've used 3 different web browsers and nothing. Can I blame it on those highly skilled IT employees possessing an H1B Visa?

After reading the article in my local paper regarding the termination of approximately 500 Disney IT workers, I sure hope Congress looks into large corporations abusing H1B Visas. While I understand workers hired for a specific project like MM+ being terminated once the project was up and running, the situations cited in the article don't seem to fit the "temporary contract worker" bill. And I thought H1B Visas would be issued to highly skilled workers, especially IT workers, due to demand exceeding supply. In other words, there are insufficient numbers of U.S. citizens with the necessary qualifications for the particular job.

One of my former bosses tried to retain a non-U.S. citizen whose extension on their student/worker Visa was expiring with the excuse that no one else would be able to perform her job. She was an accountant. And we worked at a major research university with an outstanding Accounting program. Tried to tell him it wasn't going to work. He didn't listen and ended up ****ing off the HR department and we hired a new accountant.

I've called major computer companies Help Lines as a last resort. And have listened to the person who has a limited command of English flip through the pages of their desk manual for the solution to my problem. And then put me on hold to confer with someone else. Hey, all I needed was the correct driver for my CD drive since your company decided that critical drivers wouldn't be included on the driver CD supplied with my computer - because I had to rebuild my HD after a major crash.

What really gets me? Phone calls from people who can barely speak English wanting to "lower the interest rate on my credit card." Are you kidding me? You think I want to give my personal financial info to someone in the Third World you outsourced your call center to?

 

[Nubs70]

Innovative bottom lines...thats "innovation" to MBAs who buy into this stuff.

I had the lovely experience of meeting the "Bob's" once. Great times were had by few.

The way the dementors get paid is: X amount plus a percentage of savings. So they slash and burn to the point of making the CEO uncomfortable while claiming that every cost saving was of their doing and they deserve a percentage.

 

[LAKid53]

Yet businesses are crying that they cannot find qualified candidates, particularly in STEM fields. It is my firm belief that there are many potential candidates that only need a modicum of training. The problem is businesses want low wage individuals rather than paying for experienced engineers. On boarding an experienced engineer will bring life experience that has a huge benefit in an agile workplace.

Just retired from a major research university. The student population of our College of Engineering? More than 80% Indian, Chinese and African. Every dean since establishment of the college was either Chinese or African.

And why is this? Given the emphasis on STEM, both in secondary and post-secondary education, why are the Engineering schools in the this country not full of eager U.S. citizens? Could it be due to the decline of public schools in the U.S., especially in math and science education? It is more important for that teacher to have a degree in education, rather than a degree in the area - especially in science and math - in which he/she is teaching. That school districts have to argue with teacher unions to allow individuals with a BS in math or science to teach said subjects given the shortage of qualified teachers (and qualification for me means having a degree in said topic, not a teaching certification and a degree in Education) in those fields is insane. And why we are falling behind the rest of the developed world in these areas.

I have a degree in finance, which required my taking and passing calculus and 2 statistic courses. And I had math through calculus in high school, along with 2 years of biology, chemistry and physics (dad was an engineer, so heavy emphasis on math and science in our house). So I had to know math. My daughter's 6th grade math teacher? Couldn't understand the 3 line algebraic equation I taught my daughter to solve a word problem and which she could use to solve just about any word problem in math. She actually accused my daughter of making the solution up or cheating. So I scheduled a meeting with said teacher and the principal and demanded that my daughter be transferred to a class taught by a math teacher who understood basic algebra. Because I was going to be checking her math teacher's work if not. And complaining to the school district and my elected representative on the school board.

 

[englanddg]

Just retired from a major research university. The student population of our College of Engineering? More than 80% Indian, Chinese and African. Every dean since establishment of the college was either Chinese or African.

And why is this? Given the emphasis on STEM, both in secondary and post-secondary education, why are the Engineering schools in the this country not full of eager U.S. citizens? Could it be due to the decline of public schools in the U.S., especially in math and science education? It is more important for that teacher to have a degree in education, rather than a degree in the area - especially in science and math - in which he/she is teaching. That school districts have to argue with teacher unions to allow individuals with a BS in math or science to teach said subjects given the shortage of qualified teachers (and qualification for me means having a degree in said topic, not a teaching certification and a degree in Education) in those fields is insane. And why we are falling behind the rest of the developed world in these areas.

I have a degree in finance, which required my taking and passing calculus and 2 statistic courses. And I had math through calculus in high school, along with 2 years of biology, chemistry and physics (dad was an engineer, so heavy emphasis on math and science in our house). So I had to know math. My daughter's 6th grade math teacher? Couldn't understand the 3 line algebraic equation I taught my daughter to solve a word problem and which she could use to solve just about any word problem in math. She actually accused my daughter of making the solution up or cheating. So I scheduled a meeting with said teacher and the principal and demanded that my daughter be transferred to a class taught by a math teacher who understood basic algebra. Because I was going to be checking her math teacher's work if not. And complaining to the school district and my elected representative on the school board.

^^ This

 

[ford91exploder]

Just retired from a major research university. The student population of our College of Engineering? More than 80% Indian, Chinese and African. Every dean since establishment of the college was either Chinese or African.

And why is this? Given the emphasis on STEM, both in secondary and post-secondary education, why are the Engineering schools in the this country not full of eager U.S. citizens? Could it be due to the decline of public schools in the U.S., especially in math and science education? It is more important for that teacher to have a degree in education, rather than a degree in the area - especially in science and math - in which he/she is teaching. That school districts have to argue with teacher unions to allow individuals with a BS in math or science to teach said subjects given the shortage of qualified teachers (and qualification for me means having a degree in said topic, not a teaching certification and a degree in Education) in those fields is insane. And why we are falling behind the rest of the developed world in these areas.

I have a degree in finance, which required my taking and passing calculus and 2 statistic courses. And I had math through calculus in high school, along with 2 years of biology, chemistry and physics (dad was an engineer, so heavy emphasis on math and science in our house). So I had to know math. My daughter's 6th grade math teacher? Couldn't understand the 3 line algebraic equation I taught my daughter to solve a word problem and which she could use to solve just about any word problem in math. She actually accused my daughter of making the solution up or cheating. So I scheduled a meeting with said teacher and the principal and demanded that my daughter be transferred to a class taught by a math teacher who understood basic algebra. Because I was going to be checking her math teacher's work if not. And complaining to the school district and my elected representative on the school board.

Perhaps the representation at your school was because most of those students are getting a full ride from their government as opposed to american students who need to take out 100K+ in loans and are shying away from STEM careers because american business would rather hire H1B's at poverty wages.

In a past life I was an academic officer at a research university and I saw the same thing, Kids are not going to take up fields where they saw their parents and parents friends being laid off from and replaced with foreign workers.

 

[englanddg]

Perhaps the representation at your school was because most of those students are getting a full ride from their government as opposed to american students who need to take out 100K+ in loans and are shying away from STEM careers because american business would rather hire H1B's at poverty wages.

In a past life I was an academic officer at a research university and I saw the same thing, Kids are not going to take up fields where they saw their parents and parents friends being laid off from and replaced with foreign workers.

Yeah, but the pay is still better than taking out 75k in loans and getting a degree in 1600s literature and working at Starbucks. I'm being facetious...but only slightly.

That said, part of the issue is that a 4 year CIS degree really doesn't teach a lot of the cross set skills that are required for competent (i.e. not deep level) IT work. IT needs to be able to communicate and understand business and accounting in most organizations more than necessarily machine level code. And, it's getting more and more like that.

I'm not knocking it, but I can tell you I've seen a lot of people from decent universities with 4 year CIS degrees that can't run a network or perform basic helpdesk duties to save their lives...much less understand business processes well enough to automate them (which gains IT a lot of clout as they are now seen as a partner of the business rather than a money sump).

And, often, that's what businesses need.

I know it's far more complex than that, but...it is also part of the issue.

 

[Nubs70]

Just retired from a major research university. The student population of our College of Engineering? More than 80% Indian, Chinese and African. Every dean since establishment of the college was either Chinese or African.

And why is this? Given the emphasis on STEM, both in secondary and post-secondary education, why are the Engineering schools in the this country not full of eager U.S. citizens? Could it be due to the decline of public schools in the U.S., especially in math and science education? It is more important for that teacher to have a degree in education, rather than a degree in the area - especially in science and math - in which he/she is teaching. That school districts have to argue with teacher unions to allow individuals with a BS in math or science to teach said subjects given the shortage of qualified teachers (and qualification for me means having a degree in said topic, not a teaching certification and a degree in Education) in those fields is insane. And why we are falling behind the rest of the developed world in these areas.

I have a degree in finance, which required my taking and passing calculus and 2 statistic courses. And I had math through calculus in high school, along with 2 years of biology, chemistry and physics (dad was an engineer, so heavy emphasis on math and science in our house). So I had to know math. My daughter's 6th grade math teacher? Couldn't understand the 3 line algebraic equation I taught my daughter to solve a word problem and which she could use to solve just about any word problem in math. She actually accused my daughter of making the solution up or cheating. So I scheduled a meeting with said teacher and the principal and demanded that my daughter be transferred to a class taught by a math teacher who understood basic algebra. Because I was going to be checking her math teacher's work if not. And complaining to the school district and my elected representative on the school board.

I am going through the same thing with my son. He is in grade 4 and was a math wiz through grade 3 then Common Core methods kicked in. He went from 95th percentile to 60th. He really started having trouble with going from improper fraction to mixed number and back.

I am a ChemE and MBA with math up through Calc IV. I taught him the 3 step method that we were all taught and he caught right on nailing everything I could throw at him. He failed the quiz the next day because he didn't use the 8 step process and number lines. Yet he got every answer correct.

According to Common Core, he is not allowed to use the 3 step method until 8th grade.

 

[ford91exploder]

Yeah, but the pay is still better than taking out 75k in loans and getting a degree in 1600s literature and working at Starbucks. I'm being facetious...but only slightly.

That said, part of the issue is that a 4 year CIS degree really doesn't teach a lot of the cross set skills that are required for competent (i.e. not deep level) IT work. IT needs to be able to communicate and understand business and accounting in most organizations more than necessarily machine level code. And, it's getting more and more like that.

I'm not knocking it, but I can tell you I've seen a lot of people from decent universities with 4 year CIS degrees that can't run a network or perform basic helpdesk duties to save their lives...much less understand business processes well enough to automate them (which gains IT a lot of clout as they are now seen as a partner of the business rather than a money sump).

And, often, that's what businesses need.

I know it's far more complex than that, but...it is also part of the issue.

Agree with your points,

But let's face it the REALLY good coders generally are Aspie's and it's REALLY rare to have someone with good soft skills and hardcore engineering chops. I'm one of those guys I'm as comfortable talking to C level people as I am talking to developers but there are VERY few of us in the industry.

Generally College gives you the theoretical background but I almost NEVER hire straight out of college unless the applicant did some real work like interning with the college Networking/IT group so they get operational discipline as well as theory.

The practical skills come with internship and/or first job. When I was a network architect with a major university the first 6 months my boss had me working with the cable crews so I would THOROUGHLY understand the physical plant (1,900 miles of fiber etc). This of course was also a filter as those who thought they were 'too important' for physical work would quickly go elsewhere.

But it's also rooted in how the Japanese train industrial engineers, If you are an engineer for a japanese company after college no matter WHAT degree you hold you will be on the assembly line for the companies products for at least a year. (holds true for management trainees as well).

 

[ford91exploder]

I am going through the same thing with my son. He is in grade 4 and was a math wiz through grade 3 then Common Core methods kicked in. He went from 95th percentile to 60th. He really started having trouble with going from improper fraction to mixed number and back.

I am a ChemE and MBA with math up through Calc IV. I taught him the 3 step method that we were all taught and he caught right on nailing everything I could throw at him. He failed the quiz the next day because he didn't use the 8 step process and number lines. Yet he got every answer correct.

According to Common Core, he is not allowed to use the 3 step method until 8th grade.

In china the three step method is taught from 3'rd grade on, China is more concerned with mathematical literacy than validating a poorly thought out educational process.

 

[englanddg]

I am going through the same thing with my son. He is in grade 4 and was a math wiz through grade 3 then Common Core methods kicked in. He went from 95th percentile to 60th. He really started having trouble with going from improper fraction to mixed number and back.

I am a ChemE and MBA with math up through Calc IV. I taught him the 3 step method that we were all taught and he caught right on nailing everything I could throw at him. He failed the quiz the next day because he didn't use the 8 step process and number lines. Yet he got every answer correct.

According to Common Core, he is not allowed to use the 3 step method until 8th grade.

There's an 8 step way?

I have a similar story. They taught my kid some crazy way to do division (Sally method or something), and it boggled my mind, her mother's and her step-fathers (he and I are both in IT, and he's almost finished with his Masters).

We showed her long division, and she took right to it, racing through her homework. Turned the homework in, marked wrong for "not using the proper method".

I mean, I understand what they are TRYING to teach, but I'm not sure that making simple things complicated before getting into the theories behind them are really that effective for most students.

Her grades dropped in math to a C second quarter because of this, but she managed to bring it back up to a B (the first B she'd gotten in 2 years) by the end of the year.

It was frustrating...and, it also carries a psychological negative impact that "math is hard" that scares children away. Children like to succeed and learn (and I don't just mean participation ribbons)...but overly complex methods that make for interesting talk for advanced students of math over drinks and dessert (Hey Sally, ever thought about trying division THIS way?) aren't necessarily "better" if they ignore these facts.

 

[LAKid53]

I am going through the same thing with my son. He is in grade 4 and was a math wiz through grade 3 then Common Core methods kicked in. He went from 95th percentile to 60th. He really started having trouble with going from improper fraction to mixed number and back.

I am a ChemE and MBA with math up through Calc IV. I taught him the 3 step method that we were all taught and he caught right on nailing everything I could throw at him. He failed the quiz the next day because he didn't use the 8 step process and number lines. Yet he got every answer correct.

According to Common Core, he is not allowed to use the 3 step method until 8th grade.

Somehow I think someone in your son's school district has misinterpreted Common Core. My understanding of Common Core and what it should be? Insuring that every graduate of a U.S. High School has the same basic proficiency in English (reading/writing and comprehension), math, science (biology, chemistry, physics), history and the arts. In other words, what I was taught (minus the occasional bad teacher). I can understand when learning a new math skill to show all lines of calculation. But once that skill is mastered, then give the student a break. Which I told the basketball coach teaching our Trig class in high school several times. Of course, I had a circular slide rule my dad gave me and taught me to use to back up my solutions (this was in early 1970s). My poor trig instructor didn't have a clue what I was doing with this contraption and thought I was getting away with something until I informed him my dad was an engineer and they used slide rules all the time - I still have it somewhere in my trunk of school stuff.

Your son's problem demonstrates my issue. That we have unqualified individuals teaching our children math and science (and don't get me started about the textbooks - I'm sure as a chemical engineer you would agree about the quality of science textbooks). A degree in education from a College of Education cannot substitute for a BS in math. Or biology. Or chemistry. Or physics. Or English, as my daughter's 1st grade teacher clearly demonstrated. Why on earth would a school allow someone with such poor grammar skills to teach 1st graders, who are just learning to read and write? Finally, only after years of parents complaining, was she reassigned. Her license should have been yanked.

 

[ford91exploder]

There's an 8 step way?

I have a similar story. They taught my kid some crazy way to do division (Sally method or something), and it boggled my mind, her mother's and her step-fathers (he and I are both in IT, and he's almost finished with his Masters).

We showed her long division, and she took right to it, racing through her homework. Turned the homework in, marked wrong for "not using the proper method".

I mean, I understand what they are TRYING to teach, but I'm not sure that making simple things complicated before getting into the theories behind them are really that effective for most students.

Her grades dropped in math to a C second quarter because of this, but she managed to bring it back up to a B (the first B she'd gotten in 2 years) by the end of the year.

It was frustrating...and, it also carries a psychological negative impact that "math is hard" that scares children away. Children like to succeed and learn (and I don't just mean participation ribbons)...but overly complex methods that make for interesting talk for advanced students of math over drinks and dessert (Hey Sally, ever thought about trying division THIS way?) aren't necessarily "better" if they ignore these facts.

Unfortunately teaching these days is more about 'process' rather than education.

I recommend reading 'The Sabertooth Curriculum' which gets to the root of this phenomenon which actually is very old in the US.

http://sabertooth-curriculum.wikispaces.com/

 

[Nemo14]

Can I chime in here as a former math teacher?