DHS CARS LAND

[Taylor]

But remember that Carsland at DCA added new capacity to DCA, both in terms of space, and in terms of new attractions. Now, after Carsland, DCA 2.0 can accomodate a lot more guests, which means more tickets sold. Sure, Carsland at DCA is successful, but it hasn't yet come even close to paying for the $600 million or so it took to build it. Though Carsland at DCA would pay for itself a lot faster at DCA than at DHS b/c DCA had such low attendance numbers and lack of rides, and a big empty parking lot to build Carsland on.

When you look at DHS, would adding Carsland increase guest capacity as much? The backlot tour, LMA, and some of the other things Carsland would be displace (in theory), wouldn't increase DHS as much as you'd think in terms of space for new guests. As is, DHS pulls in about 10 million a year, would that number increase to 17 million like at MK with Carsland? Doubtful, IMHO. So, you're looking at a much smaller growth in terms of annual visitors to DHS if you add Carsland, when compared to DCA, because at DHS you are destroying older attractions which still bring in guests to the park.

I figure that with Carsland, DHS would get close to closing due to capacity issues, as well as possible infrastructure issues. If Carsland is built, I think it will go on undeveloped land, i.e. fifth gate, as then you could really cycle through much more guests, and generate a faster return on investment, versus putting it in a smaller park like DHS.

From a financial standpoint, it would be hard to argue redoing 1/3 of DHS without the drastic gains possible in attendance that we saw in DCA.

There won't be a 5th gate for a long time if cars is coming to Florida it would be at DHS

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

So, is there still any hope for Cars Land in WDW?

As per Iger/Rasulo, in an interview given less than week ago I believe, they don't have any massive projects on the slate for 2013 given everything on their platter. Shanghai Disneyland, Mystic Manor Hong Kong, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train Coaster, Avatarland (which presumably won't start construction next year), plus the cruise ships. They did hint about future Star Wars projects in the parks.

So, I think that analysts/shareholders, would be a little irked if suddenly construction on Carsland happened in Orlando. Some insiders here said Carsland would start construction at DHS within months to a year.

Carsland is very nice, but it is also one of the first major quality attractions to hit DLR since Indy. Of course, everybody gives it rave reviews. But it still costed a pretty penny, and it *works* for DCA b/c it expands the guest area of the park drastically, and adds much needed rides. The rumor is that TDA wants to keep Carsland a DCA exclusive for at least 4-5 years, so that guests who must see this attraction also get re-introduced to DCA/Disneyland.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

There won't be a 5th gate for a long time if cars is coming to Florida it would be at DHS

Doubtful.

DHS is sort of "land-locked" in terms of development. Official plans call for expansion across World Drive, or possible parking lot expansions, and/or parking garage construction. There aren't plans for infill development in DHS, probably because Backlot/LMA can be repurposed for a fraction of the budget of Carsland, plus fitting the whole Carsland would be tricky and you need to have everything, IMHO, for the whole experience to work.

I doubt Lasseter would be happy with 1/2 of Radiator Springs.

Financially, it would be easier to build Carsland on an empty lot, such as by the TTC which is where a fifth gate will likely go, in addition to some Star Wars rides perhaps. A half-day park with Carsland/StarWars would make $$ because nothing was there before, and it would relieve capacity issues at the resort. Cheaper than closing 1/3 DHS for 3 years (you lose ride capacity here vs. what was done at DCA where Carsland was built on a parking lot).

 

[Taylor]

As per Iger/Rasulo, in an interview given less than week ago I believe, they don't have any massive projects on the slate for 2013 given everything on their platter. Shanghai Disneyland, Mystic Manor Hong Kong, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train Coaster, Avatarland (which presumably won't start construction next year), plus the cruise ships. They did hint about future Star Wars projects in the parks.

So, I think that analysts/shareholders, would be a little irked if suddenly construction on Carsland happened in Orlando. Some insiders here said Carsland would start construction at DHS within months to a year.

Carsland is very nice, but it is also one of the first major quality attractions to hit DLR since Indy. Of course, everybody gives it rave reviews. But it still costed a pretty penny, and it *works* for DCA b/c it expands the guest area of the park drastically, and adds much needed rides. The rumor is that TDA wants to keep Carsland a DCA exclusive for at least 4-5 years, so that guests who must see this attraction also get re-introduced to DCA/Disneyland.

I don't think an executive is going to say publicly "yeah we are going to expand DHS but we have not announced it so don't say anything." I don't believe anything Iger or Rasulo say about the future on a press conference

 

[marni1971]

Doubtful.

DHS is sort of "land-locked" in terms of development. Official plans call for expansion across World Drive, or possible parking lot expansions, and/or parking garage construction. There aren't plans for infill development in DHS, probably because Backlot/LMA can be repurposed for a fraction of the budget of Carsland, plus fitting the whole Carsland would be tricky and you need to have everything, IMHO, for the whole experience to work.

I doubt Lasseter would be happy with 1/2 of Radiator Springs.

Financially, it would be easier to build Carsland on an empty lot, such as by the TTC which is where a fifth gate will likely go, in addition to some Star Wars rides perhaps. A half-day park with Carsland/StarWars would make $$ because nothing was there before, and it would relieve capacity issues at the resort. Cheaper than closing 1/3 DHS for 3 years (you lose ride capacity here vs. what was done at DCA where Carsland was built on a parking lot).

In short... You guys still think this?

 

[Taylor]

Doubtful.

DHS is sort of "land-locked" in terms of development. Official plans call for expansion across World Drive, or possible parking lot expansions, and/or parking garage construction. There aren't plans for infill development in DHS, probably because Backlot/LMA can be repurposed for a fraction of the budget of Carsland, plus fitting the whole Carsland would be tricky and you need to have everything, IMHO, for the whole experience to work.

I doubt Lasseter would be happy with 1/2 of Radiator Springs.

Financially, it would be easier to build Carsland on an empty lot, such as by the TTC which is where a fifth gate will likely go, in addition to some Star Wars rides perhaps. A half-day park with Carsland/StarWars would make $$ because nothing was there before, and it would relieve capacity issues at the resort. Cheaper than closing 1/3 DHS for 3 years (you lose ride capacity here vs. what was done at DCA where Carsland was built on a parking lot).

Yes on those terms DHS would lose capacity but not in real terms LMA and the backlot are unpopular LMA isn't open all the time and is very expensive to run

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I don't think an executive is going to say publicly "yeah we are going to expand DHS but we have not announced it so don't say anything." I don't believe anything Iger or Rasulo say about the future on a press conference

Iger was sure happy and ready to announce Avatarland well in advance of any completion of concept art, and very shortly after he struck the deal with George Lucas he was happy to hint about more Star Wars in the parks.

Carsland at DCA wasn't a big mystery project, they advertised it at the Blue Cellar for a long time before opening.

I think some folks who want Carsland to come to Orlando want to believe that there are super secret plans involving Carsland, but why? If they announced the supposed project it would garner publicity, never a bad thing.

In terms of "expanding DHS" . . . adding Carsland at DHS, by removing Backlot/LMA, wouldn't be a bonafide expansion as you are removing two rides to complete the project. Sure, you could could fit some more guests in Carsland, but how much more in terms of ride capacity when you remove Backlot and LMA? Some existing guest walkways would be demolished as well.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Yes on those terms DHS would lose capacity but not in real terms LMA and the backlot are unpopular LMA isn't open all the time and is very expensive to run

In terms of precedent, unpopular attractions, such as Superstar Limo at DCA, are usually transformed into new rides. Even Paradise Pier, full of cheap rides, got a facelift, rather than it being closed. Yeah, they tore out Sunshine Plaza at DCA, but it was just a strip mall.

Even though Backlot/LMA might not get a lot of traffic during slower times, they still get guests to ride them, especially foreign visitors who haven't experienced them. Would be a lot cheaper to spend a couple hundred million updating/changing them, versus building something new.

Financially, makes sense to build Carsland on an empty/unusued piece of land, and keep the rest of DHS open and refurb at a later date. Cheaper too when you consider the demolition/construction costs for 12 acres at DHS, while the park is open. They did it in DCA, but Carsland was built on a parking lot there!

If they do demolish Backlot/LMA, expect to see DHS attendance dip by millions of guests for three years. That would cost the company tens of millions of dollars.

 

[Taylor]

Iger was sure happy and ready to announce Avatarland well in advance of any completion of concept art, and very shortly after he struck the deal with George Lucas he was happy to hint about more Star Wars in the parks.

Carsland at DCA wasn't a big mystery project, they advertised it at the Blue Cellar for a long time before opening.

I think some folks who want Carsland to come to Orlando want to believe that there are super secret plans involving Carsland, but why? If they announced the supposed project it would garner publicity, never a bad thing.

In terms of "expanding DHS" . . . adding Carsland at DHS, by removing Backlot/LMA, wouldn't be a bonafide expansion as you are removing two rides to complete the project. Sure, you could could fit some more guests in Carsland, but how much more in terms of ride capacity when you remove Backlot and LMA? Some existing guest walkways would be demolished as well.

Yes they announce these things when it benefits them and needs to be announced, Avatar- after D23 and WDW fans were upset over nothing being revealed combine that with potter land opening up and they were desperate, the Lucasfilm announcement well that don't mean much for the parks, RIGHT NOW.

 

[flynnibus]

When you look at DHS, would adding Carsland increase guest capacity as much?

For some reason you keep interchanging 'capacity' with 'demand' - they are two different things. Both DHS and DCA were woefully under utilized.. so the 'added capacity' point you keep going back to really isn't that relevant. What is relevant to your justification point is will it increase guest demand and guest spending.

I figure that with Carsland, DHS would get close to closing due to capacity issues, as well as possible infrastructure issues. If Carsland is built, I think it will go on undeveloped land, i.e. fifth gate, as then you could really cycle through much more guests, and generate a faster return on investment, versus putting it in a smaller park like DHS.

You just finished saying how carsland would reduce the ride capacity.. and now you are saying carland would cycle through more guests.. but only if they put it in your mythical fifth gate. This is so full of conflict I don't even know where to start.

If they close the park due to capacity (which is where I THINK you were trying to go) the rides are going to be running at full capacity too. You aren't going to get more guests on the same attraction because the park itself is more empty. Quite the contrary, the busier the park, the more pressure to run at full capacity.. not less. A 'full' DHS would be running carsland at full capacity. A lagging park, would not run, nor fill, it's rides at full capacity.

You keep trying to justify this fifth gate dream.. and stretching every which way to do it.

 

[Beholder]

I have to agree with the idea that a 5th gate is WAY off in the future, if ever. The problems they have with maintaining what they have now is too much for them to handle. I guess I should say too much for them to WANT to handle. Check out the thread on Splash Mnt falling apart. I used to want a 5th (and 6th, 7th...) gate, but the reality is that they don't need it, and they couldn't maintain in a safe, quality manner to warrant paying for another ticket.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Yes they announce these things when it benefits them and needs to be announced, Avatar- after D23 and WDW fans were upset over nothing being revealed combine that with potter land opening up and they were desperate, the Lucasfilm announcement well that don't mean much for the parks, RIGHT NOW.

Iger mentioned adding more Star Wars stuff to the theme parks, and Lucas also touched upon this as part of his decision to go with Disney as caretaker of the Star Wars Universe.

Versus, outside of a few "inside sources", which believe Carsland will immediately be built, Disney has said nothing about a Carsland at DHS.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I have to agree with the idea that a 5th gate is WAY off in the future, if ever. The problems they have with maintaining what they have now is too much for them to handle. I guess I should say too much for them to WANT to handle. Check out the thread on Splash Mnt falling apart. I used to want a 5th (and 6th, 7th...) gate, but the reality is that they don't need it, and they couldn't maintain in a safe, quality manner to warrant paying for another ticket.

Well, the standards of diehard fans/fanbois, . . . whatever, will always be higher than what Disney does. I would like Splash to get some serious upgrades, and better upkeep in the parks, but the fact is that the parks are still making money, quite a bit actually, and steady, but certain, guest growth at the parks over the next decade means these additional guests will have to go somewhere.

We all know WDW has capacity issues, and the way to solve these issues is with more attractions, which can be added in a new land, or a fifth gate. Subtracting and adding stuff doesn't address this core issue nearly as efficiently.

Avatarland will address this issue as it will be built on largely undeveloped land not used by guests.

Disneyland, btw, has the same issue, and they are looking at both adding attractions and lands just to soak up the guests.

 

[Taylor]

Iger mentioned adding more Star Wars stuff to the theme parks, and Lucas also touched upon this as part of his decision to go with Disney as caretaker of the Star Wars Universe.

Versus, outside of a few "inside sources", which believe Carsland will immediately be built, Disney has said nothing about a Carsland at DHS.

He was very vague about the future of Star wars in the parks didn't even mention which resort(s) it will go in. They will announce cars land (if it happens) when it benifits them

 

[Beholder]

Well, the standards of diehard fans/fanbois, . . . whatever, will always be higher than what Disney does. I would like Splash to get some serious upgrades, and better upkeep in the parks, but the fact is that the parks are still making money, quite a bit actually, and steady, but
certain, guest growth at the parks over the next
decade means these additional guests will have to
go somewhere.


We all know WDW has capacity issues, and
the way
to solve these issues is with more attractions,
which can be added in a new land, or a
fifth gate.

Subtracting and adding stuff doesn't address this
core issue nearly as efficiently.


Avatarland will address this issue as it will
be built

on largely undeveloped land not used by guests.


Disneyland, btw, has the same issue, and they are

looking at both adding attractions and lands
just to soak up the guests.

I'm not sure I consider myself a fanboi, but I do consider myself someone who's standards include NOT having things fall on me. That isn't an unrealistic expectation, and until Disney can provide a reasonable and safe environment to the paying "guests", then that reason above all others, is reason enough for them to NOT entertain any ideas about a 5th gate.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Well, the standards of diehard fans/fanbois, . . . whatever, will always be higher than what Disney does.

It's unfortunate that you think that, because the opposite used to be true. There was a time where Disney was known for exceeding guest expectations and standards. Sadly, that is not always the case anymore.

We all know WDW has capacity issues, and the way to solve these issues is with more attractions, which can be added in a new land, or a fifth gate. Subtracting and adding stuff doesn't address this core issue nearly as efficiently.

My understanding is that when The Disney-MGM Studios opened in '89, it was noted that the park merely drew visitors from Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center's numbers, rather than increasing the number of guests Walt Disney World saw as a whole. When Animal Kingdom opened the same happened, and the effect was amplified. Hence, no real talk of a fifth park since then. For whatever reason, opening new parks in WDW seems largely to cannibalize the numbers of the existing parks instead of growing the visiting population.

Disneyland, btw, has the same issue, and they are looking at both adding attractions and lands just to soak up the guests.

At Disneyland, the issue stems from the fact that the parks infrastructure was not designed to meet present day demand. Hence why every Disney Park since has been designed with wider pathways and larger areas outdoors to accomodate more guests. Disneyland can't retroactively make public guest areas larger, so their answer is to build more rides for people to be inside (and build California Adventure, which didn't start pulling it's own weight until this past year).

My responses in BLUE

 

[wdwfan4ver]

In terms of precedent, unpopular attractions, such as Superstar Limo at DCA, are usually transformed into new rides. Even Paradise Pier, full of cheap rides, got a facelift, rather than it being closed. Yeah, they tore out Sunshine Plaza at DCA, but it was just a strip mall.

Even though Backlot/LMA might not get a lot of traffic during slower times, they still get guests to ride them, especially foreign visitors who haven't experienced them. Would be a lot cheaper to spend a couple hundred million updating/changing them, versus building something new.

Financially, makes sense to build Carsland on an empty/unusued piece of land, and keep the rest of DHS open and refurb at a later date. Cheaper too when you consider the demolition/construction costs for 12 acres at DHS, while the park is open. They did it in DCA, but Carsland was built on a parking lot there!

If they do demolish Backlot/LMA, expect to see DHS attendance dip by millions of guests for three years. That would cost the company tens of millions of dollars.

Backlot/LMA in terms of doing an update wouldn't even fix the problems at DHS, but replacing them would. If those two attraction get updated, DHS still would be hurting once the stuff Universal is planning opens.

Backlot Tour never can be back to the way it was even it is updated. The fact is a Backlot Tour is smaller than it used to be and the fact is Backlot Tour dates back to the time DHS was a working studio.Backlot Tour/LMA has enough space to add the amount of Attractions. The fact is The Backlot Tour/LMA is a combined 2 attractions, that space can be used for having 3 or 4 attractions instead.

DHS has multiple issues. Attendance isn't the issue, but the amount of time a guests spends at DHS should be an issue. DHS has theme issues and amount of attractions is an issue. The back of the park has a Working Studios theme, and the problem is the fact DHS hasn't been a working studios in a long time because of Eisner and Disney Management.

There are guests that look at DHS as a half a day park. I know people that can't handle TOT, Star Tours: The Adventure Continues, and Rock'n' Roller Coaster. If the amount of attractions isn't a problem, how you explain Toy Story Midway Mania in terms of waiting lines and the amount of Fast passes gone before 10:00?. DHS doesn't have a lot of family friendly attractions and is one the reason the insane waiting time for that attraction.

Your are overestimating the dip in attendance in 3 years caused by the demolish of Backlot/LMA when it happens. If there is an attendance dip, it is really caused by Disney and TDO not fixing the park sooner. I am saying that because Universal right now is busy with their parks including Transformers and Harry Potter Expansion 2.

The fact is when Harry Potter Expansion 2 is finished, it will increase attendance a lot. Guests are not going to increase the days to visit parks in Orlando. That means guests would be take a day away from a WDW Park. Here is a hint of which park. It's not Magic Kingdom, and its not likely Epcot. That means goes guests would either skip AK or DHS. Once Avatarland is done, there be less guests skipping AK. That means DHS is the issue.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

My responses in BLUE

I would suggest that you don't insert your comments to other people's quotes inside of the quote box when you quote them. Just doesn't look right.

And it makes it hard to quote you, for example when you said,

"
My understanding is that when The Disney-MGM Studios opened in '89, it was noted that the park merely drew visitors from Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center's numbers, rather than increasing the number of guests Walt Disney World saw as a whole. When Animal Kingdom opened the same happened, and the effect was amplified."

This is completely wrong. When Animal Kingdom opened it drew about 6 million, of which only 3.3 million were cannibalized guests, so a net increase of guests for the park.

http://yourfirstvisit.net/2011/11/3...-kingdom-and-walt-disney-world’s-5th-park-p3/

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Backlot/LMA in terms of doing an update wouldn't even fix the problems at DHS, but replacing them would. If those two attraction get updated, DHS still would be hurting once the stuff Universal is planning opens.

A lot of the "Carsland is coming to DHS" crowd think that DHS is "hurting" and doing miserably. Well, I think some new attractions are needed, but a whole new land might not be justified with 10 million guests per year. DCA I think got about 6 million.

Backlot Tour never can be back to the way it was even it is updated. The fact is a Backlot Tour is smaller than it used to be and the fact is Backlot Tour dates back to the time DHS was a working studio.Backlot Tour/LMA has enough space to add the amount of Attractions. The fact is The Backlot Tour/LMA is a combined 2 attractions, that space can be used for having 3 or 4 attractions instead.

I'm not suggesting that they do a literal backlot tour, obviously DHS isn't a real studio anymore. I think they could add showbuildings and do a tour of an idealized 1930s/40s Hollywood, Charlie Chaplin, and others could be added as animatronics.

There are guests that look at DHS as a half a day park. I know people that can't handle TOT, Star Tours: The Adventure Continues, and Rock'n' Roller Coaster. If the amount of attractions isn't a problem, how you explain Toy Story Midway Mania in terms of waiting lines and the amount of Fast passes gone before 10:00?. DHS doesn't have a lot of family friendly attractions and is one the reason the insane waiting time for that attraction.

I actually agree with you here. But in terms of adding kid friendly attractions, that doesn't mean replicating Carsland. Remember, Carsland was built not only to wow guests, but they also wanted to put in a ton of rockwork as a sort of berm. DHS doesn't require this, so a Monsters Inc. coaster, and a Ratatouille ride could be added both, much more cheaply than a Carsland.

DHS has multiple issues. Attendance isn't the issue, but the amount of time a guests spends at DHS should be an issue.

New attractions, Carsland or otherwise, might not increase park capacity as much as you'd think. To make it a full day park, being about 2/3 as big as MK . . . I think they'd need to extend into the parking lot, and/or across World Drive. Unsurprisingly, these are the official expansion plans.

The fact is when Harry Potter Expansion 2 is finished, it will increase attendance a lot. Guests are not going to increase the days to visit parks in Orlando.

Mathematically, and historically, these assumptions might not be valid. If a family goes to Orlando specifically, or even just primarily for Harry Potter 2.0 . . . if they also spend a day at Disney, then Disney wins. Historically, anything that brings tourists into Orlando benefits Disney. This might not always be the case, but I think Harry Potter 2.0 will benefit the mouse.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

I would suggest that you don't insert your comments to other people's quotes inside of the quote box when you quote them. Just doesn't look right.

And it makes it hard to quote you, for example when you said,

"
My understanding is that when The Disney-MGM Studios opened in '89, it was noted that the park merely drew visitors from Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center's numbers, rather than increasing the number of guests Walt Disney World saw as a whole. When Animal Kingdom opened the same happened, and the effect was amplified."

This is dead wrong. When Animal Kingdom opened it drew about 6 million, of which only 3.3 million were cannibalized guests, so a net increase of guests for the park.

http://yourfirstvisit.net/2011/11/3...-kingdom-and-walt-disney-world’s-5th-park-p3/

Sorry about that, I'd seen people post that way before and didn't think it would be an issue. You're right though, I can see how it would be harder to quote a post like that.

If I gave the impression (and it appears that I did) that MGM and DAK's guests upon opening were ONLY cannibalized from the other parks, then I misspoke. All I meant was that, the way I had heard it, when Disney has opened new Parks in Florida they have seen the numbers at existing parks go down more than they would like, and that the amount of "new" visitors is not as high as they would like. The understanding seems to be that the better way of raising numbers resort-wide is to add new attractions to existing parks, rather than build a new gate.

Though these days it seems they think the very BEST way of raising resort numbers is to build more DVC Units . . .