Details on Space Mountain Refurb

jt04

Well-Known Member
I aggree. A major decision that Disney needs to consider with a TTA refurb is that it will need to be made ADA compilant. The biggest problem in making TTA ADA compilant is the loading ramp and turntable. I wouldn't be looking for TTA to be included in the SM refurb.

Really? Why would you say that the TTA will "need to be made ADA compliant"? So many people throw around the "ADA" law without having a clue what they are talking about. :brick:So please explain why Disney is required to make TTA ADA compliant because I really don't understand what the heck you are talking about. Thanks for any information you can provide. :wave:
 
Really? Why would you say that the TTA will "need to be made ADA compliant"? So many people throw around the "ADA" law without having a clue what they are talking about. :brick:So please explain why Disney is required to make TTA ADA compliant because I really don't understand what the heck you are talking about. Thanks for any information you can provide. :wave:

"Under Title III of the ADA, all "new construction" (construction, modification or alterations) after the effective date of the ADA (approximately July of 1992) must be fully compliant with the Americans With Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines ("ADAAG") " Wikipedia

However, under A15.1.2, of the ADAAG: "Alterations to Amusement Rides. Routine maintenance, painting, and changing of theme boards are examples of activities that do not constitute an alteration subject to section 15.1.2." http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm

They would only have to make the TTA ADA complient if they change the load area or the ride's mechanism was changed (Rocket Rods 2 anyone? :lol:)
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
"Under Title III of the ADA, all "new construction" (construction, modification or alterations) after the effective date of the ADA (approximately July of 1992) must be fully compliant with the Americans With Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines ("ADAAG") " Wikipedia

However, under A15.1.2, of the ADAAG: "Alterations to Amusement Rides. Routine maintenance, painting, and changing of theme boards are examples of activities that do not constitute an alteration subject to section 15.1.2." http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm

They would only have to make the TTA ADA complient if they change the load area or the ride's mechanism was changed (Rocket Rods 2 anyone? :lol:)

That is funny, wasn't RnRC built after July of 1992? Now I am really confused as I think that would be considered "new construction".:confused:
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Absolutely. There are a large number of post-92 attractions that arn`t exactly easy to load - hence the guidebook symbol that guests must transfer out of a wheelchair to ride.

Regarding the TTA and wheelchairs, I`d have thought this was the easiest to be ADA compliant almost as is - it has speedramps for access, and a small lip onto the WEDway car - something a small, lightweight ramp would help negate. Running the load carousel in creep would give ample time to load before reaching the turntable comb. I`m not certain if the TTA has a wheelchair vehicle (flat floor with just one bench) but that`d be a minor thing to change if needed - if it were needed, and if the TTA were to undergo a revamp, which isn`t on the cards yet.
 

joel_maxwell

Permanent Resident of EPCOT
Absolutely. There are a large number of post-92 attractions that arn`t exactly easy to load - hence the guidebook symbol that guests must transfer out of a wheelchair to ride.

Regarding the TTA and wheelchairs, I`d have thought this was the easiest to be ADA compliant almost as is - it has speedramps for access, and a small lip onto the WEDway car - something a small, lightweight ramp would help negate. Running the load carousel in creep would give ample time to load before reaching the turntable comb. I`m not certain if the TTA has a wheelchair vehicle (flat floor with just one bench) but that`d be a minor thing to change if needed - if it were needed, and if the TTA were to undergo a revamp, which isn`t on the cards yet.
too bad martin, i wish that some of those negative spaces in the tunnels could get some love. oh well, maybe one day.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Absolutely. There are a large number of post-92 attractions that arn`t exactly easy to load - hence the guidebook symbol that guests must transfer out of a wheelchair to ride.

Regarding the TTA and wheelchairs, I`d have thought this was the easiest to be ADA compliant almost as is - it has speedramps for access, and a small lip onto the WEDway car - something a small, lightweight ramp would help negate. Running the load carousel in creep would give ample time to load before reaching the turntable comb. I`m not certain if the TTA has a wheelchair vehicle (flat floor with just one bench) but that`d be a minor thing to change if needed - if it were needed, and if the TTA were to undergo a revamp, which isn`t on the cards yet.

Ahhhh, sounds like reason prevailed for once and the powers that be realized that it is not possible to require amusement parks to build rides that allow wheel chairs (or other devices) to roll on and off without transfering. I am sure that both Sea World and Universal will be relieved because they are building amazing new roller coasters that would not be possible if they had to allow for those who just are not physically capable of riding. It just would not be safe.

PS 1-- Disney did a great job making TSM accessible so I know that if it is possible Disney will make accomadations for the disabled.

PS 2-- I think we have confirmation that TTA won't be refurbed in the near future. Oh well, I was looking forward to RR2 myself. :cry:
 
That is funny, wasn't RnRC built after July of 1992? Now I am really confused as I think that would be considered "new construction".:confused:

Ahhhh, sounds like reason prevailed for once and the powers that be realized that it is not possible to require amusement parks to build rides that allow wheel chairs (or other devices) to roll on and off without transfering. I am sure that both Sea World and Universal will be relieved because they are building amazing new roller coasters that would not be possible if they had to allow for those who just are not physically capable of riding. It just would not be safe.

There are many rules in the ADAAG, I just quoted the one relevant to the current topic, I'm sure RnR is compliant. also, if you look at the guidelines you'll see that transfer devices are considered... Not to ruin your little government over-regulation party, but in this case the law seems fairly well crafted if you take the time to look at it.
 

Rob562

Well-Known Member
That is funny, wasn't RnRC built after July of 1992? Now I am really confused as I think that would be considered "new construction".:confused:

RnRC has a handicap accessible seat in every train. It has a door panel that hinges open to make entrance and exit easier. I believe it's row 3 or 4 of each train. Everest has a similar setup, but it's the last row of the train.

I don't know about the Speedramp aspect, but I wonder if TTA could be made more-easily accessible if they reconfigured the turntable. Eliminate the platform that overhangs the turntable for entrance and exit onto the platform, and make it look and operate more like the turntable on Kali. That way, wheelchairs can be brought around to where the trains are coming into the station, and then have the entire distance of the station to transfer, as opposed to just half (or less than half, because you lose the stretch where the overhanging platform is)

-Rob
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
I know whay you mean Rob, but looking at the specs I think the `overhang` is structural as opposed to just asthetic. If the table were creepable (don`t know if it is) that`d give more time to load a chair, assuming the software can pace the LIMs correctly and not just go from ride speed to platform speed and vice versa.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Happy bday!

There will be minor changes, but more to do with ride dynamics. Guests shouldn`t notice them. Assuming we are talking about Space Mountain and not the TTA :D
 

joel_maxwell

Permanent Resident of EPCOT
Happy bday!

There will be minor changes, but more to do with ride dynamics. Guests shouldn`t notice them. Assuming we are talking about Space Mountain and not the TTA :D
oooohhhh, great. let the obsessing begin with us. :lol:

there are no minor changes to any attraction martin without some obsessing (ie: JIYI, SSE, Seacabs, Pooh just to name the ones on the top of my head)

ill be interested to know what changes in the future... is it just in the load/unload area?
 

Enigma

Account Suspended
Original Poster
oooohhhh, great. let the obsessing begin with us. :lol:

there are no minor changes to any attraction martin without some obsessing (ie: JIYI, SSE, Seacabs, Pooh just to name the ones on the top of my head)

ill be interested to know what changes in the future... is it just in the load/unload area?

It's going to be the same as when they redid Disneylands track. The track is "virutally identical" but they made a few subtle differences to make the ride smoother and as a result, the ride feels MUCH faster. I remember the last time I went to Disneyland I was sitting in the front row of Space and the ride zips through the building so fast that the wind blowing in my face was making my eyes tear. It was thrilling.
 

joel_maxwell

Permanent Resident of EPCOT
It's going to be the same as when they redid Disneylands track. The track is "virutally identical" but they made a few subtle differences to make the ride smoother and as a result, the ride feels MUCH faster. I remember the last time I went to Disneyland I was sitting in the front row of Space and the ride zips through the building so fast that the wind blowing in my face was making my eyes tear. It was thrilling.
gotcha... like maybe that little bump when you go back past the lift hill? that absolutley kills me everytime.
 

Rob562

Well-Known Member
I know whay you mean Rob, but looking at the specs I think the `overhang` is structural as opposed to just asthetic. If the table were creepable (don`t know if it is) that`d give more time to load a chair, assuming the software can pace the LIMs correctly and not just go from ride speed to platform speed and vice versa.


I think any addition of a "creep mode" to the TTA loading platform would require them working on a lot more track and LIMs than just the station, probably stretching all the way back down the Buzz/MILF building.

As the system operates now, each LIM is always running at its set "frequency" (simplifying terms here). Along the pieces of track where the speed is constant, the LIMs are spaced evenly apart, and run at a rate that will keep a moving train moving at the same speed it's currently going. Wherever a train needs to speed up or slow down, the LIMs are much closer together, running at whatever speed the new speed is supposed to be. This is most noticable as you leave the station and in the first tunnel where the Epcot model is. The extra LIMs help to quickly speed up a slow-moving train to the frequency they're operating at, and a bunch of LIMs operating at a slow frequency will slow down a relatively fast moving train.
The system works well even though it doesn't operate on a block system like a train or a coaster because the trains are spaced out enough so that even though one train slows down at a set point, the train behind it is far enough back that the front train is out of the "slowdown" section of track before the next faster-moving train enters it.

But, the stretch of track along the MILF/Buzz building is built to be a constant-speed stretch of track. The trains don't slow down until they're going through the final curve to the station. If they were to implement a creep-mode, they would need to work on the track, adding extra LIMs so that they could change the location of the "slow-down" section of track. Thus when the station goes into creep mode, the trains are slowed down much sooner than they are now. It would require the addition of extra LIMs that would most likely sit there swithced off until required. And then when it's required, they turn on at the slower frequency, and the already-existing LIMs turn down to a slower rate.

In a side note, it's interesting to note that the LIMs in the station don't actually all operate at the same rate. The LIMs in the unload side of the platform actually run slightly faster than the load side. Then, if a gap develops between trains (which can happen sometimes if there has been a system-wide stop or if the system is running one less train than full capacity), the train behind the gap travels through the station slowly catching up to the one in front of it. But because of the mass in front of it and the slightly-slower moving LIMs on the load side, once it catches up it doesn't have the "oomph" to push trains forward any faster than they're already moving. This assures that by the time the trains get around to Load, it's back to one continuous string of cars without the gap. It's quite the ingenious system...

(The one thing I'm unsure of on the TTA is just what the LIMs do during an E-stop... What kind of field do they output to get all the trains to stop? And how about to get going again? I know it's not uncommon for a train on the TTA to roll backwards slightly while it "aligns" with the LIMs in the track before coming to a stop)

-Rob
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Thanks, Rob. That is very interesting. We`re way OT, but hey! It is such a simple but ingenious system - if only WDW had made more use of it either as planned or more recently.

I`d imagine stopping and starting was further developed for the Houston System since it has 9 stations to deal with (apart from that and the car/station design it is mechanically identical to WDW)
 

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