Crowds are down? Curious about the claims . . .

[21stamps]

Your logic would be sound if they were providing a premium product. But the type of family who is willing to pay a fortune for exclusivity may be put off by expensive food with small portions, filthy restrooms, and overflowing trash cans. The crowd you suggest they are appealing to is a bit more discerning than the riff-raff they are apparently trying to drive away.

What you describe was clearly the aim of those after-hours $150 Mickey Premium Bar parties that failed miserably this Spring.

I'm not saying raise higher than they are now!lol
I'm just saying that the fact is, crowds have become too massive. Disney did this to themselves by making it easier now (recent years) than ever to take a WDW vacation. DVA accounts, hotels at all different price points, Disney chase visa points and rewards, free dining, more discounts. I'm talking compared to the 80s/90s.

Please take not that in every post I specify "I think". Because, honestly I do not know what the motivation for an increase was, but it does make sense.

As far as DAH- I'm one of the few fans who really hope it returns!!! Fan from afar anyway. I wasn't there during those weeks, but if I still lived in Florida I would have been! I was so envious of the photos that I saw. A Disney world without being overrun with strollers?!? I'm in!!! Did I think it was right for every family? Heck no. I don't think it was meant to be- and I say that with confidence-I think it was exactly what it advertised, and delivered.

 

[21stamps]

21stamps logic is sound - Disney wants to attract consumers in higher income brackets who have the disposable income to spend more. It's no longer working. Had they announced the Spring upcharge parties without the introduction of tiered pricing, it may have worked b/c people do want to be at MK with lesser crowds. Alas, that's not what they did...they fumbled....the implementation generated all sorts of bad press and it backfired, or it's still backfiring depending on your perspective.

Does Disney think that their upper income bracket consumers don't know better (re: what is a premium product?) Apparently.

Ok wait.. I lost any and all disposable income the day my child started school. So I'm not in that bracket.lol

Let me pause for a minute, smile, and remember those days.....

 

[Mem11]

I don't think they want to drive away most customers, just maybe not be so readily available to all consumers.

Many of these customers they no longer want are/were their biggest fans, who would tell their friends and family's what a great place WDW was and convince them to go - free advertising. It's much easier to keep existing fans, than to make new ones.

 

[SorcererMC]

Many of these customers they no longer want are/were their biggest fans, who would tell their friends and family's what a great place WDW was and convince them to go - free advertising. It's much easier to keep existing fans, than to make new ones.

True - I think that Disney has alienated these customers (by removing perks, etc), who will just stop going/stop spending. I wonder, 'How much will the pendulum swing back in their direction now that the bottom is falling out of the intl tourists segment?'

Edit: Ironically, I'm watching the episode of 'The Middle' where they go to WDW....excessive planning jokes included. They're arguing/having a family meltdown at the hub. Mike - All I wanted this whole trip was to go to Epcot!

 

[gmajew]

We don't know yet how far the needle has swung - but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't look good.

Is that why Universal was down and slower this past weekend? Why Chicago hotels had vacancies.... Why cruises are not full, why New York and DC both had hotel vacancies? Why Wisconsin fell was slower then years past.

This is not just a Orlando or a Disney problem. Sure there prices may have resulted in a down year but not what we are seeing. No chance.

 

[21stamps]

Many of these customers they no longer want are/were their biggest fans, who would tell their friends and family's what a great place WDW was and convince them to go - free advertising. It's much easier to keep existing fans, than to make new ones.

Unless- you have several tv channels, movies, toys, games, stuffed animals, nostalgic parents wanting to take their children for the first time promoting your product.

This is why Disney has the upper hand on us.
Like I said early, for every repeat visitor that stops going, a new repeat visitor takes their place. And they still will have the ones who are Disney crazed and won't go anywhere else-these people won't leave forever, they'll grumble, but pay up.

My thoughts anyway. There will always be a new child, and a parent who wants to say "We're going to Disney World!!"
And then that parent gets 3 new wrinkles from stressing over ADRs and park days 6 months in advance. But then they do it again the next year...and after..and after. Vicious cycle.

 

[gmajew]

Consumers turning their backs on an industry leader does present rather suddenly and it is very difficult to reverse.

Really? Examples of it happening in less then a year without being some outbreak of illness etc.

 

[Mem11]

I'm not saying raise higher than they are now!lol
I'm just saying that the fact is, crowds have become too massive. Disney did this to themselves by making it easier now (recent years) than ever to take a WDW vacation. DVA accounts, hotels at all different price points, Disney chase visa points and rewards, free dining, more discounts. I'm talking compared to the 80s/90s.

Yes, the overcrowding is Disney's fault. They failed to update and add capacity to the parks over the last 10-15 years, while recording record profits. Sorry, but in the 80's and early 90's WDW was still a value, not the overpriced mess it has become, even with the discounts.

 

[SorcererMC]

Is that why Universal was down and slower this past weekend? Why Chicago hotels had vacancies.... Why cruises are not full, why New York and DC both had hotel vacancies? Why Wisconsin fell was slower then years past.

This is not just a Orlando or a Disney problem. Sure there prices may have resulted in a down year but not what we are seeing. No chance.

Ok, so expectations re: July 4th travel are down overall nationally (I'm taking your word for it). I suspect that what is going on is fallout from the Brexit as well as increased terrorist activity - consumer confidence is taking a hit as to the health of the global economy and they are adjusting accordingly. No doubt the macro indicators matter, too. What I am suggesting w/ regard to Disney pricing strategy, is that they somehow thought they were 'untouchable' to such events based on the consistent increases in attendance and profits over the last five years, lulled into a false sense of security.

 

[PhotoDave219]

What I am suggesting w/ regard to Disney pricing strategy, is that they somehow thought they were 'untouchable' to such events based on the consistent increases in attendance and profits over the last five years, lulled into a false sense of security.

Thats where I am at, that there was a certain belief amongst some managers that the guests will always come.

 

[21stamps]

It's funny how we all have selective memories of the good old days without being 'overrun by strollers'. I was really surprised when I came across this photo from the 64-65 N.Y. Worlds Fair. Not only are there a fair amount of strollers, but imagine the outcry if people started wheeling baby carriages around the Magic Kingdom!

View attachment 149738

Oh I'm not having selected memory. I hate strollers everywhere- zoos, museums (ok these don't bother me so much), but crowded zoos and theme parks are the worst. Btw- I used a stroller last year at Disney, I wasn't planning on it, because as I said- I hate strollers, but my friends convinced me and omg I am SO GLAD that I did!!!

I can't even imagine a time before baby wearing and actual baby carriages everywhere. I would have gone nuts in a crowded place. lol

 

[WondersOfLife]

April 2, 2007 Monsters, Inc. Laugh Floor
February 22, 2012 Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom
June 15, 2012 Casey Jr. Splash 'N' Soak Station
December 6, 2012 Under the Sea ~ Journey of the Little Mermaid
December 6, 2012 Enchanted Tales with Belle
March 9, 2014 Disney Festival of Fantasy Parade
May 28, 2014 Seven Dwarfs Mine Train

November 27, 2006 The Seas with Nemo & Friends
April 2, 2007 Gran Fiesta Tour Starring The Three Caballeros
October 14, 2009 Sum of All Thrills (in Innoventions East)
June 23, 2012 Agent P's World Showcase Adventure
December 6, 2012 New Test Track
June 17, 2016 New Soarin'
June 21, 2016 Frozen Ever After

October 9, 2007 Jedi Training: Trials of the Temple
May 31, 2008 Toy Story Midway Mania!
March 27, 2011 Disney Junior - Live on Stage!
July 4, 2014 Star Wars: Path of the Jedi
July 5, 2014 For the First Time In Forever: A Frozen Sing-Along Celebration
December 1, 2015 Star Wars Launch Bay
June 17, 2016 Star Wars: A Galactic Spectacular

April 7, 2006 Expedition Everest - Legend of the Forbidden Mountain
January 24, 2007 Finding Nemo - The Musical
May 27, 2016 Sunset Safari
May 27, 2016 Harambe Wildlife Parti
May 27, 2016 Discovery Island Carnivale
May 27, 2016 Harambe Village Acrobats
May 28, 2016 The Jungle Book: Alive with Magic


Not to mention all the millions of dollars being invested in new attractions currently under construction.

April 2, 2007 Monsters, Inc. Laugh Floor
Insert 5 year gap of nothing new at MK here.
February 22, 2012 Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom - Scavenger hunt... Nothing impressive.
June 15, 2012 Casey Jr. Splash 'N' Soak Station - Water fountains with a statue in the middle... Nothing impressive
December 6, 2012 Under the Sea ~ Journey of the Little Mermaid
December 6, 2012 Enchanted Tales with Belle
March 9, 2014 Disney Festival of Fantasy Parade - .....It's a parade. Not necessarily a new addition.
May 28, 2014 Seven Dwarfs Mine Train - Good, but scaled back a LOT.

November 27, 2006 The Seas with Nemo & Friends - Just an overlay of what was already there
April 2, 2007 Gran Fiesta Tour Starring The Three Caballeros - Just an overlay of what was already there
October 14, 2009 Sum of All Thrills (in Innoventions East) - Good, but tucked in a tiny corner nobody knows about.
June 23, 2012 Agent P's World Showcase Adventure - Scavenger hunt... Nothing impressive
December 6, 2012 New Test Track - Just an overlay of what was already there
June 17, 2016 New Soarin' - Just an overlay of what was already there
SOOOO... There's a decade of countless overlays and one attraction that would have potential if it were the size of an actual attraction
June 21, 2016 Frozen Ever After

October 9, 2007 Jedi Training: Trials of the Temple - This is literally nothing. I could make this show in my backyard.
May 31, 2008 Toy Story Midway Mania!
March 27, 2011 Disney Junior - Live on Stage! - An overlay, but it needed to stay up to date.
July 4, 2014 Star Wars: Path of the Jedi - Something I can make on my iMac and post on YouTube
July 5, 2014 For the First Time In Forever: A Frozen Sing-Along Celebration - Something that can be performed at a birthday party
December 1, 2015 Star Wars Launch Bay - A major downgrade from Magic of Disney Animation.. NOT a step forward
June 17, 2016 Star Wars: A Galactic Spectacular

April 7, 2006 Expedition Everest - Legend of the Forbidden Mountain
January 24, 2007 Finding Nemo - The Musical
May 27, 2016 Sunset Safari - It IS an addition... But it also isn't..
May 27, 2016 Harambe Wildlife Parti - not an attraction
May 27, 2016 Discovery Island Carnivale - not an attraction
May 27, 2016 Harambe Village Acrobats - not an attraction
May 28, 2016 The Jungle Book: Alive with Magic - a bad cover up for the failure of rivers of light.

__________________________________________________________________

UNIVERSAL FOR COMPARISON: No "minor" additions listed

Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit - 2009
Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey - 2010
Dragon Challenge - 2010, An overlay of what was already there
Flight of the Hyppogriff - 2010, An overlay of what was already there
Despicable Me: Minion Mayhem - 2012, an overlay, but a very impressive one
Kang & Kodo's Twirl n' Hurl - 2013, a carnival ride immersing you more into the land
Transformers: The Ride - 2013
Harry Potter and the Escape from Gringgotts - 2014
Hogwarts Express - 2014
Skull Island: Reign of Kong - 2016
Incredible Hulk Coaster - A MASSIVE EXPENSIVE refurb

Not to mention two AMAAAAZINGLY immersive themed lands. Universal Studios is opening what Disney would consider an "E-Ticket" every 1 or 2 years..​

 

[gmajew]

Ok, so expectations re: July 4th travel are down overall nationally (I'm taking your word for it). I suspect that what is going on is fallout from the Brexit as well as increased terrorist activity - consumer confidence is taking a hit as to the health of the global economy and they are adjusting accordingly. No doubt the macro indicators matter, too. What I am suggesting w/ regard to Disney pricing strategy, is that they somehow thought they were 'untouchable' to such events based on the consistent increases in attendance and profits over the last five years, lulled into a false sense of security.

I am sorry but Disney and universal have same price points for a single day ticket. It is not and never has been cheap for one day at park. They get you to buy multiple for a decent price. Have prices increased yes but. It fast enough to go from a 20m a year number down to 15m. It just does not happen that fast.

Thats where I am at, that there was a certain belief amongst some managers that the guests will always come.

]

I agree with this they continued to raise every year no matter what and at some point it get to be to much but when is that point. I don't think we are there yet. Those that go to Disney won't bat an eye at an extra 400 per trip.

 

[SorcererMC]

Thats where I am at, that there was a certain belief amongst some managers that the guests will always come.

A belief supported by Wall St. I imagine that there must be an echo chamber of sorts around mgmt., that dissent isn't tolerated in the inner circle. Just the impression I get about Iger & friends, disconnected from thinking realistically about the FL/US/Intl market, or otherwise operating in the 'Disney vacuum'.

 

[21stamps]

April 2, 2007 Monsters, Inc. Laugh Floor
Insert 5 year gap of nothing new at MK here.
February 22, 2012 Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom - Scavenger hunt... Nothing impressive.
June 15, 2012 Casey Jr. Splash 'N' Soak Station - Water fountains with a statue in the middle... Nothing impressive
December 6, 2012 Under the Sea ~ Journey of the Little Mermaid
December 6, 2012 Enchanted Tales with Belle
March 9, 2014 Disney Festival of Fantasy Parade - .....It's a parade. Not necessarily a new addition.
May 28, 2014 Seven Dwarfs Mine Train - Good, but scaled back a LOT.

November 27, 2006 The Seas with Nemo & Friends - Just an overlay of what was already there
April 2, 2007 Gran Fiesta Tour Starring The Three Caballeros - Just an overlay of what was already there
October 14, 2009 Sum of All Thrills (in Innoventions East) - Good, but tucked in a tiny corner nobody knows about.
June 23, 2012 Agent P's World Showcase Adventure - Scavenger hunt... Nothing impressive
December 6, 2012 New Test Track - Just an overlay of what was already there
June 17, 2016 New Soarin' - Just an overlay of what was already there
SOOOO... There's a decade of countless overlays and one attraction that would have potential if it were the size of an actual attraction
June 21, 2016 Frozen Ever After

October 9, 2007 Jedi Training: Trials of the Temple - This is literally nothing. I could make this show in my backyard.
May 31, 2008 Toy Story Midway Mania!
March 27, 2011 Disney Junior - Live on Stage! - An overlay, but it needed to stay up to date.
July 4, 2014 Star Wars: Path of the Jedi - Something I can make on my iMac and post on YouTube
July 5, 2014 For the First Time In Forever: A Frozen Sing-Along Celebration - Something that can be performed at a birthday party
December 1, 2015 Star Wars Launch Bay - A major downgrade from Magic of Disney Animation.. NOT a step forward
June 17, 2016 Star Wars: A Galactic Spectacular

April 7, 2006 Expedition Everest - Legend of the Forbidden Mountain
January 24, 2007 Finding Nemo - The Musical
May 27, 2016 Sunset Safari
May 27, 2016 Harambe Wildlife Parti - not an attraction
May 27, 2016 Discovery Island Carnivale - not an attraction
May 27, 2016 Harambe Village Acrobats - not an attraction
May 28, 2016 The Jungle Book: Alive with Magic - a bad cover up for the failure of rivers of light.

Fortunately though, we all have different likes and dislikes. Jedi Training- for my family, is one of the coolest things ever. Star Wars Launch Bay - main reason that going this year was so important. Scorerers of the Magic Kingdom- awesome fun. Festival of Fantasy- must do.

So much is subjective, and that's ok, not everyone will always like everything.
I'm skipping AK this year bc I know kiddo would rather do HS, a lot of people are probably doing the exact opposite of that.

 

[gmajew]

A belief supported by Wall St. I imagine that there must be an echo chamber of sorts around mgmt., that dissent isn't tolerated in the inner circle. Just the impression I get about Iger & friends, disconnected from thinking realistically about the FL/US/Intl market, or otherwise operating in the 'Disney vaccuum'.

Wall Street does not want attendance drops if revenue and profit drops. Wall street wants companies to grow and maintain there profit percent as if sales go up and profit percent stays same profit goes up. Shareholders make more. It bothers me that people think Wall Street wants to just cut cut cut to increase bottom line. They don't as long term companies like Disney you want to milk the cash cow not butcher it for a few good years of profit.

Now some of course want that but most don't operate that way.

 

[WondersOfLife]

Fortunately though, we all have different likes and dislikes. Jedi Training- for my family, is one of the coolest things ever. Star Wars Launch Bay - main reason that going this year was so important. Scorerers of the Magic Kingdom- awesome fun. Festival of Fantasy- must do.

So much is subjective, and that's ok, not everyone will always like everything.
I'm skipping AK this year bc I know kiddo would rather do HS, a lot of people are probably doing the exact opposite of that.

I'm not saying they're not good additions... I'm saying they're not big, or impressive additions.. They're not a new groundbreaking E-Ticket. Look at my updated quote to you for a comparison on Universal. All Disney has been doing are overlays, cheap way outs, and small stage shows/scavenger hunts.

 

[21stamps]

I am sorry but Disney and universal have same price points for a single day ticket. It is not and never has been cheap for one day at park. They get you to buy multiple for a decent price. Have prices increased yes but. It fast enough to go from a 20m a year number down to 15m. It just does not happen that fast.

]

I agree with this they continued to raise every year no matter what and at some point it get to be to much but when is that point. I don't think we are there yet. Those that go to Disney won't bat an eye at an extra 400 per trip.

I'm using the last 2 of my non expiring hoppers this year (insert crying emoji here)...didn't make sense for me to use them on a 9 night trip in '15. I think quite a few people still have these left. My parents banked them for us. I just blew through all of mine before I had kids. But my sister still has 18 4 day hoppers I think, she won't need to worry about ticket price increase for awhile.

 

[gmajew]

I'm not saying they're not good additions... I'm saying they're not big, or impressive additions.. They're not a new groundbreaking E-Ticket. Look at my updated quote to you for a comparison on Universal. All Disney has been doing are overlays, cheap way outs, and small stage shows/scavenger hunts.

Don't compare Universal need in the past ten years to Disney. If universal did not go nuts and build a ton they be closed.

 

[SorcererMC]

I am sorry but Disney and universal have same price points for a single day ticket. It is not and never has been cheap for one day at park. They get you to buy multiple for a decent price. Have prices increased yes but. It fast enough to go from a 20m a year number down to 15m. It just does not happen that fast.

You are changing the context from natl tourism trends to local econ indicators. Fine. Disney has sufficient market share (~70%) of an oligopoly market (or duopoly if you prefer) and therefore they command the price points - it's their game. It's why Universal automatically raises their ticket prices right after Disney. If they keep playing the way that they have been, they are going to lose share one way or the other. They've been 'sitting pretty' for a long time....it's not sustainable.