Crowds are down? Curious about the claims . . .

[21stamps]

The consumers wins because they are being charged more for the same or less?

Who knew.

Yes, I think there is a large market of people willing to pay a little more if it means there are lower crowds. So it's a win/win.

Very true, to a certain extent, about the well never running dry; they're banking on it....I think that they are overestimating that people will come no matter what price b/c as others have stated in other threads, people walk away from their vacation feeling like they didn't get value for the money they spent, and they will tell their friends, not go as often, etc. That being said, I don't see TWDC rolling back their prices anytime soon (discounts, sure). I think they are willing to lose market share of American families as long as they can keep increasing revenue, and I think that the next two years will be crucial in that regard....if they are taking an immediate hit on attendance, what will it be 3-6 months from now? Another record holiday season? I doubt it.

Edit: See @Brad Bishop post on the last page, he lays it out.
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...-about-the-claims.915152/page-12#post-7300984

I can respect that sentiment. I also thing there are people who just don't care.- ok, "don't care" is too strong,...but I mean unwillingly, willing to pay.lol
My personal reasoning- my child will be 7 in 2017. So really this is the last year that he will really be into character meals, at least one a day anyway. So as long as they don't double in price then I will pay them. I really don't see the restaurant pricing much different than it was in 2015. Or the resorts.. tickets are the only thing that changed in a relative significant raise. Also, a lot of people traveling this month probably purchased their tickets before the hike. Everyone knew it was coming. I wish that I would have purchased when warned.
As for all of the people saying that Hollywood Studios has nothing left to offer, it's actually going to be one of the major highlights of our trip. It is also the main reason my child is repeatedly asking to go to Disney World after seeing his friend's and cousins' photos with Kylo Ren and jawas. (he has no clue that we are going).

I just think that everyone's reasons are personal, plenty can be similar, but the entire "market" can not be generalized. I also see that travel has increased in price across the board. I don't know where anywhere that I can go today and pay the same as I did 10 years ago.

Disney has never been overly affordable, not when I was a kid, an adult, or a parent. Yes prices are at their highest now, that I'll agree with, I just don't agree that they are high enough for anything more than a slight decline in attendance- which again, is/should be a good thing, and needed to be done.

Edit to add--- Disney World has an advantage that even DCL does not. It is truly one of a kind. I am very excited to go on our first DCL trip this year, and I booked one for '17 as well- although already thinking of and probably will cancel that one. BUT-- the 2017 cruise that I wanted on DCL- for myself and my child the price was $13,400. For a regular room- not a 'family' and not concierge. Cat 5A. So--needless to say I did NOT choose to go on that itinerary with Disney, I booked a different cruise line, same itinierary, and know that we will love it.
I'm not some 'Disney can do no wrong and we should pay whatever they want' fanatic. BC yes, on certain itineraries I think DCL has lost their flippin' minds. But, just because I won't pay for that cruise doesn't mean that someone else will- so I don't assume that my unwillingness is shared by the majority, even though I think the willing are a little crazy for doing so.lol

 

[PhotoDave219]

Yeah they will respond with attraction closures and layoffs. It's the Wall St Way.

Had that same conversation with two people today. I'm betting (pure speculation) that September will bring about some serious belt tightning.

 

[SorcererMC]

Yes, I think there is a large market of people willing to pay a little more if it means there are lower crowds. So it's a win/win.

I can respect that sentiment. I also thing there are people who just don't care.- ok, "don't care" is too strong,...but I mean unwillingly, willing to pay.lol
My personal reasoning- my child will be 7 in 2017. So really this is the last year that he will really be into character meals, at least one a day anyway. So as long as they don't double in price then I will pay them. I really don't see the restaurant pricing much different than it was in 2015. Or the resorts.. tickets are the only thing that changed in a relative significant raise. Also, a lot of people traveling this month probably purchased their tickets before the hike. Everyone knew it was coming. I wish that I would have purchased when warned.
As for all of the people saying that Hollywood Studios has nothing left to offer, it's actually going to be one of the major highlights of our trip. It is also the main reason my child is repeatedly asking to go to Disney World after seeing his friend's and cousins' photos with Kylo Ren and jawas. (he has no clue that we are going).

I just think that everyone's reasons are personal, plenty can be similar, but the entire "market" can not be generalized. I also see that travel has increased in price across the board. I don't know where anywhere that I can go today and pay the same as I did 10 years ago.

Disney has never been overly affordable, not when I was a kid, an adult, or a parent. Yes prices are at their highest now, that I'll agree with, I just don't agree that they are high enough for anything more than a slight decline in attendance- which again, is/should be a good thing, and needed to be done.

Yes, each of you are responding to the prices as rational consumers....everyone has their price point of what they are willing to pay or not. I think that TWDC has misjudged how many are willing to pay the higher prices, both domestic and intl. While they can't control what happens in other countries' economies, they need to know who their consumer is and what other economic pressures they are facing. I think that mgmt. have missed it...and the consequences may not be drastic yet, but I don't think it will be without consequence.

I hope that you have a great trip - it really is special when children are that age, I totally understand why you would pay for it, albeit begrudgingly.

 

[rob0519]

Yeah they will respond with attraction closures and layoffs. It's the Wall St Way.

They've already done that.

 

[21stamps]

Yes, each of you are responding to the prices as rational consumers....everyone has their price point of what they are willing to pay or not. I think that TWDC has misjudged how many are willing to pay the higher prices, both domestic and intl. While they can't control what happens in other countries' economies, they need to know who their consumer is and what other economic pressures they are facing. I think that mgmt. have missed it...and the consequences may not be drastic yet, but I don't think it will be without consequence.

I hope that you have a great trip - it really is special when children are that age, I totally understand why you would pay for it, albeit begrudgingly.

Thank you. I actually edited my post to add that on some points regarding the mouse, I am in agreement with. There's a limit to the craziness- I just don't think WDW has hit that mark across the board.

I also wonder if companies, not just WDW are raising their prices bc they know that people are having children later in life. Strictly a theory, but I believe it to be somewhat true.

Market research can tell that parents have higher income levels now as opposed to 20 years ago when people were having kids younger, not as many seeking higher education etc.

The flaw with that though is this-
Look at the cost of pre school and "Early learning centers" (cough cough daycare) these days. You're talking $14k + per year. It was NOT this way when I was growing up. So yeah, on paper we have "more" money, but we also have significantly higher expenses than our parents. Yet we also have some weird need for everything to be ultra convenient with a VIP feel.. So the travel industry in general has changed.
Bottom line- we're an odd society now.lol.

 

[21stamps]

Nope you are not alone, Disney has ticked off this fan and they are not getting my park admission dollars this year OR next and perhaps never again. They still get my DVC member fees though. While people are having Iger-gasm's over Avatar I'm heading to Jackson Hole next year with friends and telescopes for the total eclipse.

http://community.today.com/parentin...ke-your-kids-to-see-the-real-non-disney-world

This is one of my favorite articles ever written.
I firmly believe that WDW should not be the "only" destination for a family. I think your trip sounds awesome!

 

[ford91exploder]

http://community.today.com/parentin...ke-your-kids-to-see-the-real-non-disney-world

This is one of my favorite articles ever written.
I firmly believe that WDW should not be the "only" destination for a family. I think your trip sounds awesome!

That was an AWESOME article, Right now we are having some glass solar filters made up for our scopes, Plan is to use the small scopes for visual observation and use the 8" Celestron and 5" refractors for photography, If we can figure out how to manage it we'd like to bring a coronagraph so we can photograph the corona of the sun only (blocks out the main disc of the sun). So far the plan is a couple of us will do a road trip with the big scopes and such and the rest us us will fly in with the small scopes as carryons.

 

[Brad Bishop]

I think here is the main thing about Disney pricing, regardless of DCL or the parks-

There will ALWAYS be families with young children. Always. So what that means is- if someone who has older children chooses Universal, there is a new family right behind to replace them at Disney- for the next few years, and then rinse & repeat.

It's one of the main reasons that they can raise prices. The market will never run dry.

Our children will only be young once. So when the cost of a Christmas party, character meal etc gets raised, I'll groan. When I pay too much for a Disney cruise, I'll groan.. But then I'll suck it up and pay it, bc they'll never be this age or see it through a child's eyes again.

Disney is smart enough to know that this happens- and that a new reason for a family to visit is literally created 365 days of the year.

I disagree with this because it's poor economics.

If I own a pizza restaurant and people are coming into my restaurant then I'm happy as long as we're making bank, the employees are paid/happy, etc.

If I own a pizza place and I'm at capacity, I can literally take no more people on any given day, and they're going to Joe's Pizza down the street, then, while I'm making maximum money, I'm losing money because I'm turning away business. I want those customers who'd otherwise eat at my place but, because of capacity issues, are going to Joe's Pizza. I need to do something like:
1) expand my current restaurant
2) open a new restaurant on the other side of town.

I have what it takes to earn the money of those who are turned away but I'm not making it so that they'll give me their money. Joe is getting their money. My money. My customers. I want my money and my customers. I want to expand. I want to drive Joe out of business not only to take my customers back but to take Joe's customers as well!

Disney thinks you'll come and pay, anyway. They don't have to do anything but raise prices.

They should do that as one of their yearly themes:
Walt Disney World
"Come and pay"
(kind of snickering as I write that, too)

 

[21stamps]

That was an AWESOME article, Right now we are having some glass solar filters made up for our scopes, Plan is to use the small scopes for visual observation and use the 8" Celestron and 5" refractors for photography, If we can figure out how to manage it we'd like to bring a coronagraph so we can photograph the corona of the sun only (blocks out the main disc of the sun). So far the plan is a couple of us will do a road trip with the big scopes and such and the rest us us will fly in with the small scopes as carryons.

Oh wow...that sounds so cool!!! I would love to do something like that! I hope you blog about it, what a neat experience!

I disagree with this because it's poor economics.

If I own a pizza restaurant and people are coming into my restaurant then I'm happy as long as we're making bank, the employees are paid/happy, etc.

If I own a pizza place and I'm at capacity, I can literally take no more people on any given day, and they're going to Joe's Pizza down the street, then, while I'm making maximum money, I'm losing money because I'm turning away business. I want those customers who'd otherwise eat at my place but, because of capacity issues, are going to Joe's Pizza. I need to do something like:
1) expand my current restaurant
2) open a new restaurant on the other side of town.

I have what it takes to earn the money of those who are turned away but I'm not making it so that they'll give me their money. Joe is getting their money. My money. My customers. I want my money and my customers. I want to expand. I want to drive Joe out of business not only to take my customers back but to take Joe's customers as well!

Disney thinks you'll come and pay, anyway. They don't have to do anything but raise prices.

They should do that as one of their yearly themes:
Walt Disney World
"Come and pay"
(kind of snickering as I write that, too)

Point is- WDW does not have a Joe's Pizza down the street. They do have another restaurant "across town" though, it's called Disneyland, and other locations internationally- to get those customers who maybe can't travel here.

So until there is a hypothetical "Joe's" (and it is not Universal) then they have the market cornered.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I disagree with this because it's poor economics.

If I own a pizza restaurant and people are coming into my restaurant then I'm happy as long as we're making bank, the employees are paid/happy, etc.

If I own a pizza place and I'm at capacity, I can literally take no more people on any given day, and they're going to Joe's Pizza down the street, then, while I'm making maximum money, I'm losing money because I'm turning away business. I want those customers who'd otherwise eat at my place but, because of capacity issues, are going to Joe's Pizza. I need to do something like:
1) expand my current restaurant
2) open a new restaurant on the other side of town.

I have what it takes to earn the money of those who are turned away but I'm not making it so that they'll give me their money. Joe is getting their money. My money. My customers. I want my money and my customers. I want to expand. I want to drive Joe out of business not only to take my customers back but to take Joe's customers as well!

Disney thinks you'll come and pay, anyway. They don't have to do anything but raise prices.

They should do that as one of their yearly themes:
Walt Disney World
"Come and pay"
(kind of snickering as I write that, too)

How far do you deliver and I'll take a large pepperoni with extra cheese.

 

[Brad Bishop]

How far do you deliver and I'll take a large pepperoni with extra cheese.

It'll be $15.50 and at your door in 30min or else!

 

[Mem11]

Yes, I think there is a large market of people willing to pay a little more if it means there are lower crowds. So it's a win/win.

Hmm, what about those who don't want to or can't pay more. I guess it's more of a win/lose/win or since having a business plan that actively seeks to drive away customers isn't optimal, I'm guessing it's more of a win/lose/lose.

 

[Nubs70]

And the tone here still seems to be people complaining about the lower crowds. That cannot possibly be true, is it???

Not complaining, but if attendance drops faster than price increases, the fixed cost per guest will increase. There is someone in management whose existence is tied to this metric. If fixed cost per guest goes up, some cost I'll be eliminated somewhere.

 

[21stamps]

Hmm, what about those who don't want to or can't pay more. I guess it's more of a win/lose/win or since having a business plan that actively seeks to drive away customers isn't optimal, I'm guessing it's more of a win/lose/lose.

I don't think they want to drive away most customers, just maybe not be so readily available to all consumers. This is a business plan that has proven successful for countless companies. I don't think they are trying to become "exclusive" though, I just think they're trying to deal with so many people now- so many that a lot complain, that a lot won't even go near WDW at certain times of the year.

Let's say there 5000 new families who want to go to Disney. 3000 are willing to pay, at a higher price (the current price) The revenue is generated and the guests have a better experience.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I don't think they want to drive away most customers, just maybe not be so readily available to all consumers. This is a business plan that has proven successful for countless companies. I don't think they are trying to become "exclusive" though, I just think they're trying to deal with so many people now- so many that a lot complain, that a lot won't even go near WDW at certain times of the year.

Let's say there 5000 new families who want to go to Disney. 3000 are willing to pay, at a higher price (the current price) The revenue is generated and the guests have a better experience.

Your logic would be sound if they were providing a premium product. But the type of family who is willing to pay a fortune for exclusivity may be put off by expensive food with small portions, filthy restrooms, and overflowing trash cans. The crowd you suggest they are appealing to is a bit more discerning than the riff-raff they are apparently trying to drive away.

What you describe was clearly the aim of those after-hours $150 Mickey Premium Bar parties that failed miserably this Spring.

 

[SorcererMC]

Your logic would be sound if they were providing a premium product. But the type of family who is willing to pay a fortune for exclusivity may be put off by expensive food with small portions, filthy restrooms, and overflowing trash cans. The crowd you suggest they are appealing to is a bit more discerning than the riff-raff they are apparently trying to drive away.

What you describe was clearly the aim of those after-hours $150 Mickey Premium Bar parties that failed miserably this Spring.

21stamps logic is sound - Disney wants to attract consumers in higher income brackets who have the disposable income to spend more. It's no longer working. Had they announced the Spring upcharge parties without the introduction of tiered pricing, it may have worked b/c people do want to be at MK with lesser crowds. Alas, that's not what they did...they fumbled....the implementation generated all sorts of bad press and it backfired, or it's still backfiring depending on your perspective.

Does Disney think that their upper income bracket consumers don't know better (re: what is a premium product?) Apparently.

 

[gmajew]

Thinking about the slow down wdw had a increase in guest last year a big increase. Price raises do not and would not swing the needle this bad in one year. Not going to happen.

MUCH BIGGER FORCES ARE IN PLAY FOR SLL OF ORLANDO TO SEE THIS SLOW DOWN. THE ECONOMY THE WORLD ECONOMY IS VERY VERY FRAGILE AND WE THIS IS BECAUSE OF SO MICH MORE THEN JUST TICKET PRICES GOING UP.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Thinking about the slow down wdw had a increase in guest last year a big increase. Price raises do not and would not swing the needle this bad in one year. Not going to happen.

MUCH BIGGER FORCES ARE IN PLAY FOR SLL OF ORLANDO TO SEE THIS SLOW DOWN. THE ECONOMY THE WORLD ECONOMY IS VERY VERY FRAGILE AND WE THIS IS BECAUSE OF SO MICH MORE THEN JUST TICKET PRICES GOING UP.

Consumers turning their backs on an industry leader does present rather suddenly and it is very difficult to reverse.

 

[SorcererMC]

Thinking about the slow down wdw had a increase in guest last year a big increase. Price raises do not and would not swing the needle this bad in one year. Not going to happen.

MUCH BIGGER FORCES ARE IN PLAY FOR SLL OF ORLANDO TO SEE THIS SLOW DOWN. THE ECONOMY THE WORLD ECONOMY IS VERY VERY FRAGILE AND WE THIS IS BECAUSE OF SO MICH MORE THEN JUST TICKET PRICES GOING UP.

We don't know yet how far the needle has swung - but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't look good.

 

[PhotoDave219]

The very premise of "it will always be this way" is just not sound. You simply cant have record attendance/income/profits every quarter.

Things eventually change.