Crowds are down? Curious about the claims . . .

[21stamps]

Contemporary was mostly sold out while we were there (6/29-7/3). They had a couple Bay Lake tower views left. Parks were busy but manageable. No complaints here ; )

Glad you had a good time! How was MK? Do you know what actual crowd level ratings they ended at vs predicted? That would be interesting info.

 

[rob0519]

Good analogy using the Cubs as they do have a cult following but people invest a heck of a lot more money in there favorite sports teams than even most crazed Disney fans. A family may drop 3K a year on a trip to Disney but few do that every year over and over. Season ticket packages are the bread and butter of any franchise and I know many people that drop 5K on season tickets year after year.

For sure. I have a 9 game Blackhawks package that costs almost $2,000 each season, plus about another $300 in parking and $400-$600 in food and drink. Our trips to Disneytend to cost more than $3,000 each and yes, we did go every year for a while. Then we cut back to every 18 months, then every 24 months for awhile. We're still debating on trying to book something this September. I don't really see the value at WDW anymore, but there are many parts we still enjoy.

 

[Mouse Trap]

Reduced crowds + higher revenues = Disney wins.

 

[ChipNDale79]

Exactly. And not because of prices. It's because of economy issues in other countries. I posted excerpts from the Broward and Miami Dade sun sentinels citing the same issues there. I don't think Miami beaches have become any less attractive to tourists, it's just that a large segment can not afford to come this year.

I think pricing plays into it as well, its a combination of things. I've seen countless people say they weren't going this year because of the price hikes.

I'm not native to think that the economy issues in other counties arent playing a part either though. They are hitting a perfect storm right now. The economy in other countries isn't their fault. However I hope they reap what they sow with pricing. I hope the consumer is finally pushing back.

 

[dizneeboy]

Glad you had a good time! How was MK? Do you know what actual crowd level ratings they ended at vs predicted? That would be interesting info.

For a holiday weekend, completely manageable. Not sure of the ratings but we didn't run into any huge crowding issues at any point really. Except, I perceived a lot of ride downtime. Splash went down so they issued fastpasses for everyone to use elsewhere. As a result, space and 7 dwarves fastpass lines spiked to long waits. Mansion was down down (no one in line) twice (2 different days) when we went to ride it and RnRC was down right before our fastpasses kicked in on another day.

 

[21stamps]

Reduced crowds + higher revenues = Disney wins.

So do the consumers!

For a holiday weekend, completely manageable. Not sure of the ratings but we didn't run into any huge crowding issues at any point really. Except, I perceived a lot of ride downtime. Splash went down so they issued fastpasses for everyone to use elsewhere. As a result, space and 7 dwarves fastpass lines spiked to long waits. Mansion was down down (no one in line) twice (2 different days) when we went to ride it and RnRC was down right before our fastpasses kicked in on another day.

Space mountain was down twice, once during our fp time the last time we were there, but we did get to ride it several times. I'm really hoping all are up this time, or at least long enough for us to ride, I've cut MK down to 1 day now that I've added universal.

 

[SorcererMC]

Fair would be comparing Orlando to the rest of the US tourist destinations.

Outdated info (2011), but probably what you are looking for - recall that Orlando has been having a tourist boom since 2011.
http://www.visitorlando.com/community/industry-fast-facts/

Edit: Market Indicator - Orlando Occupancy Tops State & Nation in March 2016

"Metro Orlando occupancy in March was 86.9 percent, surpassing the occupancy rates for Florida (83.1 percent) and the nation (66.4 percent). However, occupancy was down 1.5 percent from March of last year. The state (-0.8 percent) and nation (-0.4 percent) also declined versus prior year". [VisitOrlando]

 

[betty rose]

My trip in May was the first time I consciously felt like Disney had almost no value for the money. Portion sizes were small at every restaurant from Captain Cooke's at my hotel (the Poly) to the Cali Grill. Custodial cutbacks were apparent in restrooms: at the MK, Studios, and Epcot, I saw literal crap on the floors. At DAK, the poop was smeared on a wall. Attractions kept breaking down. Units were missing from parades. Monorail and bus transportation were the worst I've ever encountered. And many CMs were outright rude.

At the same time, I KNOW Disney is finally investing in WDW again. I had a hard time reconciling the mediocrity I witnessed with the plans I knew about. Somehow, daily operations are deteriorating while good things are waiting in the wings. It's just a mess right now.

I've been seeing the restroom thing for years.

 

[Todd H]

I think TWDC has a slightly more severe problem this time around.

In times past, when things got bad, they could always count on their fans to come to the parks. Offer them some deal and they'd usually show up.

This time around, though, I think it's different. They've been actively ticking off long-term fans with cuts in service, price increases, trying to monetize everything, lower quality in food and services, too-little/too-late on attractions, etc.

For me, as a long-time WDW fan, I've lost interest. I just don't see the value there any longer. I know this: I could take some days off and head down there and see Epcot, like it's always been, DAK pretty much as it's been for 10 years (Pandora isn't open, yet), DHS with less to do than before, and MK which is roughly the same save for a mediocre NFL all at a higher price and, from what I've seen from other threads, a bit dirtier. I can ride the dingy monorail, if it's working over to the MK but, in reality, I wouldn't do that because I gave up on the monorail years back when it started breaking down.

So, this time around, someone who'd otherwise head down there and blow some cash on them, is staying home. I'll end up going somewhere else, though I haven't determined where that'd be.

This isn't me punishing them but more me thinking, "I'm paying more for, at best, the same old thing (less at DHS), and more than likely, for a worse, overall, experience between food, cleanliness, etc."

What's worse is that the new attractions that are coming aren't piquing my interest either. I'm not holding out for Avatar or Guardians or even Star Wars.

I don't think I'm alone.

And that's exactly why we went to Universal this year after being an every year Disney family.

 

[SorcererMC]

I'm not native to think that the economy issues in other counties arent playing a part either though. They are hitting a perfect storm right now. The economy in other countries isn't their fault

As far as I can tell, TWDC's strategy has been to cater to these intl tourist groups - who spend a lot more than the avg US consumer. Disney could 'care' less about what the avg US consumer can afford; it's more about who is spending money there and how can they maximize that revenue. Will the downturn in overall attendance be sufficient for them to change their strategy? Are they counting on domestic tourism to compensate for the intl tourism shortfall? Probably (as that is what local tourism trends indicate). And they will likely be 'disappointed', due to unforeseen recent events.

Edit - in general, it's not either pricing or intl tourists, it's all of the above.

 

[**Stacy**]

Lower crowd levels are intriguing, part of my current Disney avoidance is wall to wall people. I am waiting to see what happens after AP blackout dates end( and secretly hoping that Disney tags 3 months onto APs for free) like they have in the past to boost AP sales/draw locals.

 

[21stamps]

I think here is the main thing about Disney pricing, regardless of DCL or the parks-

There will ALWAYS be families with young children. Always. So what that means is- if someone who has older children chooses Universal, there is a new family right behind to replace them at Disney- for the next few years, and then rinse & repeat.

It's one of the main reasons that they can raise prices. The market will never run dry.

Our children will only be young once. So when the cost of a Christmas party, character meal etc gets raised, I'll groan. When I pay too much for a Disney cruise, I'll groan.. But then I'll suck it up and pay it, bc they'll never be this age or see it through a child's eyes again.

Disney is smart enough to know that this happens- and that a new reason for a family to visit is literally created 365 days of the year.

 

[seabreezept813]

Someone please quote me with legitimate complaints in this thread about crowds being low. Or are certain people here getting their fantasies and realities mixed up again?

I think it's not that people are complaining about low crowds, but rather critically acknowledging the skeptical methods to produce smaller crowds (price increase, inconsistent upkeep, lack of new attractions)

 

[matt9112]

I'm sure there are several factors at work here, but I have to assume the new pricing structure has had the desired effect (so far.) Whether people were completely priced out of AP's, or downgraded to the one with summer blackout dates, that would reasonably account for lower crowds at this time of year. The question for Disney is whether the decrease in attendance now or eventually outweighs the higher ticket prices.

I suspect some people also decided to skip a year or two until more of the new plans have been completed (especially in light of higher pricing, talk of reduced value in meals, etc.)

And as an almost-local (Fort Lauderdale) I would think twice about going on both our national holiday as well as the end of Ramadan, especially with the option to go plenty of other times.

I appreciate all the on-site reporting, and can't help but hope it is similarly slow by the time we get there for Food & Wine!

we almost went gold but i said nah no value...no value with silver as well but at least it is affordable. same price as universal pass with no blockouts give or take.

 

[**Stacy**]

I think we were all waiting to see when Disney would feel some sort of pinch, I don't think any of us would expect to see it happen on a historically HUGE, super crowded holiday weekend. I have been to the MK and EPCOT on July 4th in the past and it was so crowded I wasn't sure whose sweat was running down my leg...and no, my leg neighbor was in no way related to me..so it was either my sweat or stranger sweat...ugh.

 

[SorcererMC]

I think here is the main thing about Disney pricing, regardless of DCL or the parks-

There will ALWAYS be families with young children. Always. So what that means is- if someone who has older children chooses Universal, there is a new family right behind to replace them at Disney- for the next few years, and then rinse & repeat.

It's one of the main reasons that they can raise prices. The market will never run dry.

Our children will only be young once. So when the cost of a Christmas party, character meal etc gets raised, I'll groan.. But suck it up and pay it, bc they'll never be this age or see it through a child's eyes again.

Very true, to a certain extent, about the well never running dry; they're banking on it....I think that they are overestimating that people will come no matter what price b/c as others have stated in other threads, people walk away from their vacation feeling like they didn't get value for the money they spent, and they will tell their friends, not go as often, etc. That being said, I don't see TWDC rolling back their prices anytime soon (discounts, sure). I think they are willing to lose market share of American families as long as they can keep increasing revenue, and I think that the next two years will be crucial in that regard....if they are taking an immediate hit on attendance, what will it be 3-6 months from now? Another record holiday season? I doubt it.

Edit: See @Brad Bishop post on the last page, he lays it out.
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...-about-the-claims.915152/page-12#post-7300984

 

[World_Showcase_Lover007]

Maybe everyone flew to China and are experiencing the Shanghai park.
#thanksshanghai

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

So do the consumers!

.

The consumers wins because they are being charged more for the same or less?

Who knew.

 

[ford91exploder]

I think TWDC has a slightly more severe problem this time around.

In times past, when things got bad, they could always count on their fans to come to the parks. Offer them some deal and they'd usually show up.

This time around, though, I think it's different. They've been actively ticking off long-term fans with cuts in service, price increases, trying to monetize everything, lower quality in food and services, too-little/too-late on attractions, etc.

For me, as a long-time WDW fan, I've lost interest. I just don't see the value there any longer. I know this: I could take some days off and head down there and see Epcot, like it's always been, DAK pretty much as it's been for 10 years (Pandora isn't open, yet), DHS with less to do than before, and MK which is roughly the same save for a mediocre NFL all at a higher price and, from what I've seen from other threads, a bit dirtier. I can ride the dingy monorail, if it's working over to the MK but, in reality, I wouldn't do that because I gave up on the monorail years back when it started breaking down.

So, this time around, someone who'd otherwise head down there and blow some cash on them, is staying home. I'll end up going somewhere else, though I haven't determined where that'd be.

This isn't me punishing them but more me thinking, "I'm paying more for, at best, the same old thing (less at DHS), and more than likely, for a worse, overall, experience between food, cleanliness, etc."

What's worse is that the new attractions that are coming aren't piquing my interest either. I'm not holding out for Avatar or Guardians or even Star Wars.

I don't think I'm alone.

Nope you are not alone, Disney has ticked off this fan and they are not getting my park admission dollars this year OR next and perhaps never again. They still get my DVC member fees though. While people are having Iger-gasm's over Avatar I'm heading to Jackson Hole next year with friends and telescopes for the total eclipse.

 

[ford91exploder]

Disney is not like most sports franchises. Disney has a cult like following, just like say the Chicago Cubs. The Cubs put horrible teams on the field for decades since the 70s and still drew two to three million plus fans. Disney however is a several thousand dollar expense to a family as opposed to several hundred for a single ball game. With all the external pressures on attendance I would think the Management Team is preparing some sort of response if attendance continues to remain lower than anticipated.

Yeah they will respond with attraction closures and layoffs. It's the Wall St Way.