News Crossroads Plaza Faces Demoliton

[Master Yoda]

Well you can use google and probably find everything you want. Just don’t be too disappointed when the facts don’t align with your opinion.

Where were the "facts" in what you posted? It was an opinion piece.

I might not get to deal with Orlando traffic on a daily basis like you do, but I do go through the very intersection in question a good bit and it is consistently a nightmare unless I hit it at 6 am on a weekend.

 

[ford91exploder]

These are interesting figures. Which document are they from? I can't find it. Is it really saying that combined, 36+44=80% of the daily traffic at the intersection is either going to Crossroads or WDW?


I've been fascinated by the speed of advances in traffic engineering in the past 20 years compared to the previous 50. It seems like we're finally moving beyond the 4-phase intersections into newer alternatives for 2-phase intersections. This includes a couple of at-grade 2-phase intersection designs I had never previously heard of until tonight, the Continuous Flow Intersection and the Parallel Flow Intersection

Interesting, i had never heard of these concepts before, Other means of eliminating left
Turns are the famous 'Jersey Jug Handle' which is expensive in the space required to implement

 

[Lensman]

There’s video that shows the new i4 express in 3D. You don’t need to guess about alignment and bridges.

Which video shows the i-4 535 improvements?

Also want to note that the screen capture shows an alternative design that isn't the current one.

 

[s8film40]

Where were the "facts" in what you posted? It was an opinion piece.

I might not get to deal with Orlando traffic on a daily basis like you do, but I do go through the very intersection in question a good bit and it is consistently a nightmare unless I hit it at 6 am on a weekend.

Yeah from a tourist perspective your comparing it to mostly just the intersection in WDW. Yes it’s a busy intersection, but has it ever taken you 30+ minutes to get through it. Even at its peak from my experience I can get through very quickly. Yes it’s crowded, but time wise it’s not bad at all.

Because he is lying about everything in regards to this intersection

Haha, who’s the crazy conspiracy theorist now. Someone presents their real word experience and it doesn’t line up with your opinion so it must be a lie. I have no reason to lie. I don’t care about Crossroads, I’ve fully supported road project by and/or for Disney like the DS garages and I-4 ramps. My issue with this is that firstly it isn’t really that necessary especially when compared to other areas that are in greater need of work, it’s very expensive (I would rather see 2-4 other project taken on that cost less) and it doesn’t justify removing all those businesses.

 

[Ripken10]

Yeah from a tourist perspective your comparing it to mostly just the intersection in WDW. Yes it’s a busy intersection, but has it ever taken you 30+ minutes to get through it. Even at its peak from my experience I can get through very quickly. Yes it’s crowded, but time wise it’s not bad at all.

Haha, who’s the crazy conspiracy theorist now. Someone presents their real word experience and it doesn’t line up with your opinion so it must be a lie. I have no reason to lie. I don’t care about Crossroads, I’ve fully supported road project by and/or for Disney like the DS garages and I-4 ramps. My issue with this is that firstly it isn’t really that necessary especially when compared to other areas that are in greater need of work, it’s very expensive (I would rather see 2-4 other project taken on that cost less) and it doesn’t justify removing all those businesses.

ok seriously, you have made your point over and over again. Time to move on. Seems other locals have said to the contrary, as well as tourist. Everybody has an opinion, but you don't need to say yours repeatedly. We got your point,, you don't think it was needed. Very obvious it was your opinion that has had very little fact to back it up. While others present facts, you dispute it with your same opinion again. Time to move on...

 

[DisneyCane]

My issue with this is that firstly it isn’t really that necessary especially when compared to other areas that are in greater need of work, it’s very expensive (I would rather see 2-4 other project taken on that cost less) and it doesn’t justify removing all those businesses.

Your last point needs some emphasis. The issue I have is that, whether the land owner sells voluntarily or is forced to sell via eminent domain, the lessees are hurt. If you lease a space in that plaza and have a successful business, you're only going to end up with some miniscule buyout amount if they have to end your lease early. If they just don't renew the lease, or put you on a month to month renewal until it is time for demolition, you get no compensation.

While the landowner will end up making out just fine (as would happen if it was residential except for the emotional part of losing a house), lessees will potentially lose a lucrative business and it will be difficult to relocate in a similar location. Especially since the removal of all that retail space will increase the lease rates in nearby shopping centers.

 

[s8film40]

ok seriously, you have made your point over and over again. Time to move on. Seems other locals have said to the contrary, as well as tourist. Everybody has an opinion, but you don't need to say yours repeatedly. We got your point,, you don't think it was needed. Very obvious it was your opinion that has had very little fact to back it up. While others present facts, you dispute it with your same opinion again. Time to move on...

Other locals have agreed with me. I never said this intersection wasn’t busy I said there are a large number of others that are busier. There are plenty of facts and statistics, if you want to try to prove that this is the busiest intersection in the area go for it, good luck.

You keep lying about the fact this intersection isn't busy but my personal experience seven days a week says that yours is wrong. But, I digress. You have proved to me you are the dumb one in this conversation so I'm bowing out.

Maybe you’re lying, you’re the one that seems to have an agenda. You’re the one that’s devolved this conversation into calling people liars. I could care less what happens with this intersection, I just want to see others addressed FIRST.

 

[briangaw]

What you’re saying isn’t false the point is though this traffic doesn’t back up into I-4. Typically I-4 is congested and can’t produce enough exiting traffic to back up this intersection. Its extremely rare at this intersection for things to back up to the point where you have to wait more than one cycle of the lights. You can look at statistics and find a better solution for literally every intersection that exists. My complaint isn’t about losing Crossroads. I’m not in disagreement that this plan will help this intersection. My only complaint is that there are thousands of other intersections and traffic issues that should be addressed before this, not even considering that this adds on the expense of buying out a large piece of expensive commercial land. From a practical real world perspective as a local who drives through this intersection all the time, it’s simply a non issue by comparison to other areas.

Traffic was projected to back up on I-4 in 2040 to bring the LOS to a failing point even with the previously approved modifications (pg 43 of http://www.i4express.com/Docs/I4_BtU_SOUTH_SAMR_2017_03_16_FHWA_SUBMITTAL.pdf) and this is being build with 2040 in mind. If you look at that map, making this intersection improvement (along with one ramp change) improves I-4 level through the model but also restores the level of service of the Hotel Plaza Boulevard intersection, but also the Vineland intersection. Roads connect and one underperforming intersection can affect much more downstream. I am also glad that you can now agree that this plan will help this intersection. Not what you argued before, but glad the info has helped shape your viewpoint. Now as far as Orlando being a traffic mess. I would agree. And FDOT has tons of planning etc on their roads. The city and county roads also need work. Many of the intersections in the article you posted aren't FDOT roads. Different pots of money. Actually, this is all really a problem of gas tax revenues being down significantly with the increase in fuel efficiency tied with the increase in road construction and maintenance costs. That is a huge policy and taxing issue that will need to be faced in the future. And again, they need the drainage pond area for I-4 expansion so they would have to have to acquire land anyway and they needed to improve the intersection for the 2040 projections. So they are. I would say of state FDOT roads, I-4 is one of the biggest and most needed fixes in the area.

What some posters have suggested is that Disney has exerted undue influence on this project. This is what several stakeholders in the OP OS article suggest. It is also supported by the fact, in the article, that Disney had been meeting with the FDOT fairly frequently for four years, something apparently discovered by an outside group and not disclosed by Disney or the FDOT. A major corporation exerting this kind of influence on a government project would not be even slightly unusual.

Some other posters have suggested that this fix will not correct the traffic issues or is unnecessarily invasive. I - and I suspect most posters - lack the expertise to definitively support or oppose that point, though interesting information has been presented here by folks like Briangaw.

A lot of this thread seems to be people yelling past each other without directly disagreeing on specific points. It’s frustrating.

All I would say is that undue influence is unfounded. I am not sure why anyone is surprised that Disney and Reedy Creek would not be meeting with FDOT. I would actually hope there were these meetings. Disney's land and roads (well really Reedy Creek Roads) connect directly with 2 interchanges in the project and indirectly with 2 others. If Disney has plans to widen these roads or make changes this should be coordinated. Would be ridiculous for FDOT to construct a great new interchange which goes to a Disney road with say a one lane off ramp (numbers for argument) when Disney is going to increase the capacity of that same road in a year after the construction is complete and now they will need two lanes. The FDOT might as well know that and put in the two lanes when everything is ripped up. Also FDOT has been meeting with the public and stakeholders for over 4 years as well. Further this is not unusual or any kind of excess influence. Disney is a large player in this project and there needs to be coordination. Also these are not secret meetings. Anyone could have requested that info. Also I am not sure how Disney or the FDOT should have announced meetings between each other that are normal course and would be expected. A press release: newsflash we met with Reedy Creek today who owns two of the roads our project interfaces with. I am sure there have been ongoing meetings with Orange County too.

Also unrelated, this I-4 ramp into the garage argument needs some color. The I-4 ramp doesn't only go to the garage it also goes to Buena Vista Drive. The direct ramp ensures traffic getting off of I-4 have a direct route to the area and do not instead have to use the, interestingly enough 535 and Epcot Drive interchanges. So the ramp while leading to a Reedy Creek facility, also helps divert strain from the two interchanges, helping I-4 traffic. I am sure this was part of the equation. Also I am not sure Reedy Creek didn't foot some of the bill for it.

 

[Lensman]

Which video shows the i-4 535 improvements?

Also want to note that the screen capture shows an alternative design that isn't the current one.

I found the video in question. 535 is at about 3:20 in the video:

There’s video that shows the new i4 express in 3D. You don’t need to guess about alignment and bridges.

And I see now that the view is roughly from the South looking North, which confused me. @halltd, you're totally correct!

I found the following to be helpful in illustrating the scale of the overall I-4 project:

 

[s8film40]

Traffic was projected to back up on I-4 in 2040 to bring the LOS to a failing point even with the previously approved modifications (pg 43 of http://www.i4express.com/Docs/I4_BtU_SOUTH_SAMR_2017_03_16_FHWA_SUBMITTAL.pdf) and this is being build with 2040 in mind.

What about intersections that back up onto I-4 now, wouldn’t it be better to address those first rather than something that could potentially be a problem over 20 years from now?

I am also glad that you can now agree that this plan will help this intersection. Not what you argued before, but glad the info has helped shape your viewpoint.

I NEVER said this plan wouldn’t help this intersection. I said the help was unnecessary and would only marginally improve the situation that isn’t that bad.

You could apply this logic at just about every intersection everywhere. Simply destroy a business or whatever occupies one side and create ramps for the other side of the intersection. Of course it’s going to help in every instance. The question is, is that really necessary. In this case I don’t think it is. Now 20 years from now, sure maybe. Here’s an idea wait 10 years, address things that are issues now and then come back around to that. I know that you think everything these traffic engineers put forth is absolutely right, but I drive these roads they design and they definitely get things wrong. They’re not perfect, they make mistakes, I think this is one of them at least for now.

 

[ford91exploder]

Yeah but those intersections dont cost Disney Springs sales

 

[BigThunderMatt]

Anybody that posts in this thread saying what a travesty this is has clearly never had to traverse the hellhole that is exit 68 on both east and west bound I4 any time of day any day of the week. It is literally the cause of massive backups in both directions because the on and off ramps are too short to accommodate the sheer volume of traffic that uses it (much of it inefficiently accessing Disney property via Hotel Plaza Blvd, quite possibly the worst way to access it).

 

[Tom Morrow]

Anybody that posts in this thread saying what a travesty this is has clearly never had to traverse the hellhole that is exit 68 on both east and west bound I4 any time of day any day of the week. It is literally the cause of massive backups in both directions because the on and off ramps are too short to accommodate the sheer volume of traffic that uses it (much of it inefficiently accessing Disney property via Hotel Plaza Blvd, quite possibly the worst way to access it).

Yeah, if this gets rid if the constant bottleneck in both directions on I4 at the 535 exit, it'll be well worth it to lose Crossroads.

 

[Lensman]

Can Google maps traffic estimates and travel times be used to objectively determine whether there are backups and traffic on 535 and exit 68?

 

[BigThunderMatt]

Yeah, if this gets rid if the constant bottleneck in both directions on I4 at the 535 exit, it'll be well worth it to lose Crossroads.

It will fix the westbound side at the very least. The eastbound side bottlenecks are caused by the 535 - I-4 East on ramp. It merges up into the overpass and the then the lane immediately ends. Most people just stay in it and try to merge at the last possible second, causing the backups. They need to make the eastbound ramp on the northbound side of 535 shared with a left turn from the southbound side. That ramp is extremely long and turns into a full on lane that lasts about 3-4 miles.

 

[Lensman]

It will fix the westbound side at the very least. The eastbound side bottlenecks are caused by the 535 - I-4 East on ramp. It merges up into the overpass and the then the lane immediately ends. Most people just stay in it and try to merge at the last possible second, causing the backups. They need to make the eastbound ramp on the northbound side of 535 shared with a left turn from the southbound side. That ramp is extremely long and turns into a full on lane that lasts about 3-4 miles.

They're doing what you're suggesting. They are eliminating the cloverleaf for southbound 535 to eastbound I-4 and replacing it with a new left hand turn before southbound 535 goes under I-4. The new left hand turn will cross 535 northbound at grade and pass under I-4 before merging with the northbound 535 to eastbound I-4 onramp.

Full version: http://www.i4express.com/Seg1Docs/SEGMENT1_SR535_RECOMMENDED.pdf

 

[Skipper Sam]

There are talks of relocation according to staff on the ground; to near hotel boulevard in LBV / Disney Springs area but no idea where. Is there even any space in that area?!

Also, can’t imagine that all stores will relocate, for instance Goodings. Perkins is one of the diners / restaurants that will be part of relocation (according to local servers). Wish some sort of official source could clarify.

Reinstating jungle Jim’s would make the whole demolition / relocation worthwhile ;-)

Yea free burgers at Jungle Jims

 

[briangaw]

What about intersections that back up onto I-4 now, wouldn’t it be better to address those first rather than something that could potentially be a problem over 20 years from now?

The answer is they are addressing every I-4 interchange through Orlando! I-4 Ultimate as you are fully aware is in construction and now the I-4 Beyond Ultimate project is in ROW aquisition and design. Please, please visit http://www.i4express.com/! Also a quick one pager at http://www.i4express.com/Docs/3144-Project-map-and-fact-sheet-handout-20180312-singlesided-rgb.pdf.

Second your premise that this interchange does not back up now on I-4 is false. Today 4/18/18 at 4:10 PM EST, not even peak hour there is congestion through the interchange with slow downs on I-4. Also look slow downs at 535 and Hotel Plaza Blvd. So not only addressing 2040 traffic addressing issues today!

Also it is very funny that all the other Disney area interchanges are green, minus an accident caused slow down near World Drive. And I haven't been hunting for conditions that met my argument. Literally just opened Google maps.

I NEVER said this plan wouldn’t help this intersection. I said the help was unnecessary and would only marginally improve the situation that isn’t that bad.

Agreed and I proved with facts and analysis the improvement would not be marginal unless a 60% increase in throughput is marginal. And again in 2040 it would be hell and even now the intersection has issues see above. And again this intersection is being improved in the context of an I-4 rebuild and fits in to ensure that the beautiful new ramps are not just feeding into congestion making the new ramps useless.

You could apply this logic at just about every intersection everywhere. Simply destroy a business or whatever occupies one side and create ramps for the other side of the intersection. Of course it’s going to help in every instance. The question is, is that really necessary. In this case I don’t think it is. Now 20 years from now, sure maybe. Here’s an idea wait 10 years, address things that are issues now and then come back around to that. I know that you think everything these traffic engineers put forth is absolutely right, but I drive these roads they design and they definitely get things wrong. They’re not perfect, they make mistakes, I think this is one of them at least for now.

You could apply your stated "logic" but then you would be a failure of a traffic engineer. There are many potential solutions for intersection improvements. This intersection needs a special solution with its proximity to the I-4 interchange as well as the giant trip driver that is the Disney property. The cash strapped FDOT would not spend the money otherwise. Also again, it is a fact the FDOT needs the Crossroads property for the retention basins for the express lane construction and other road improvements on I-4! You continue to ignore that. Having to take the land for that purpose anyway and then the opportunity to improve this intersection plays into the decision for the intersection design.

You don't feel and think it is necessary. The actual facts and analysis say it is especially for the design year of 2040. Now your idea of waiting 10 years and then addressing the issue would be neat if that was realistic and also if there wasn't a problem now, which there is see above. However, if they used that logic they would always be behind the 8 ball. You have to design into the future. Otherwise the minute you finish construction you will be starting it again. Just using this project as an example, this process started in 2002. Construction will probably not be complete before 2022. That is at least a 20 year lead time. With the environmental requirements and studies, public involvement, state funding, design time, the time it takes to build a road maintaining traffic etc. you have to build for the future or you are just a hamster on a wheel. No one is perfect, amen agree. But when considering analysis of those educated in a field coupled with independent facts versus one person's perception which has been disputed by others (see @BigThunderMatt, @Tom Morrow, and myself), I know what I am going with.

Edited: Added- PM EST

 

[s8film40]

Second your premise that this interchange does not back up now on I-4 is false. Today 4/18/18 at 4:10 PM EST, not even peak hour there is congestion through the interchange with slow downs on I-4. Also look slow downs at 535 and Hotel Plaza Blvd. So not only addressing 2040 traffic addressing issues today!

This area of I-4 is very frequently congested. It's not in any way a back up from 535. I drive this road every day and I'm usually stuck in that congestion while exiting traffic is whizzing by as they take the exit and are then free of the congestion.

Also it is very funny that all the other Disney area interchanges are green, minus an accident caused slow down near World Drive. And I haven't been hunting for conditions that met my argument. Literally just opened Google maps.

The World drive exit traffic is not due to an accident. It's likely the accident was a result of the traffic. That is in my opinion the singe worst point of all of I-4, it is always congested. If you are traveling westbound at a time when that exit is congested it can add up to an hour to your driving time. Eastbound in the morning can back up well past 27. These traffic engineers that you regard so highly thought it would be a good idea rather than creating a ramp from 417 directly into I-4 instead saving that traffic up and depositing it one mile further combined with the World Dr traffic, which of course is only one exit before 429. So rather than spreading things out and allowing traffic to adjust as cars come in it's an all at once sort of thing. It's so bad that now FHP regualarly hangs out between the ramp and I-4 and hands out tickets to all the motorists trying to get out of that horrible entrance ramp by crossing the grassy median.

Facts and analysis are great but as anyone who actually drives these roads can see it's not the whole picture.

 

[Tom Morrow]

This area of I-4 is very frequently congested. It's not in any way a back up from 535. I drive this road every day and I'm usually stuck in that congestion while exiting traffic is whizzing by as they take the exit and are then free of the congestion.

The constant congestion on I4 Eastbound at the 535 interchange, which often stretches to US-192, I believe is because between it and US-192 there are four heavily used on-ramps to I4 in a short distance: US-192, Osceola Parkway, 536, and finally 535. The congestion almost always is relieved just beyond 535 because that is the point where there are finally four lanes instead of three. Then there are four lanes all the way to 528.