News Crossroads Plaza Faces Demoliton

[briangaw]

Also for all those interested in the facts on the ground regarding the project. This is all under an FDOT PD&E study called I-4 Beyond the Ultimate. Segment 1 of that project is the segment in the area of WDW. Here is the page for the documents for Segment 1: http://www.i4express.com/project_documents_segment_1.shtm.

You will find links upon links of documents. I draw your attention a little down the page to the "Alternative Meeting Materials" section to see maps of the 3 alternatives for the SR 535 interchange. Additionally you will see public hearing materials from the public meetings that were held regarding this. You will also note that the alternative that has Crossroads gobbled up in land acquisition (which btw hasn't started yet and isn't yet funded) has been chosen as the recommended alternative. All of this is in design and right of way acquisition and no construction has been funded. So if folks in the community and the business area are upset then there is time to have this project stopped or other alternatives added. Also under the final section you can see the traffic analysis done for the interchange. Happy reading and perusing. Actually as FDOT projects go, speaking from a good deal of experience, this is the most public and well organized set of materials I have seen.

Edited: Grammer

 

[Ignohippo]

Also for all those interested in the facts on the ground regarding the project. This is all under an FDOT PD&E study called I-4 Beyond the Ultimate. Segment 1 of that project is the segment in the area of WDW. Here is the page for the documents for Segment 1: http://www.i4express.com/project_documents_segment_1.shtm.

You will find links upon links of documents. I draw your attention a little down the page to the "Alternative Meeting Materials" section to see maps of the 3 alternatives for the SR 535 interchange. Additionally you will see public hearing materials from the public meetings that were held regarding this. You will also note that the alternative that has Crossroads gobbled up in land acquisition (which btw hasn't started yet and isn't yet funded) has been chosen as the recommended alternative. All of this is in design and right of way acquisition and no construction has been funded. So if folks in the community and the business area are upset then there is time to have this project stopped or other alternatives added. Also under the final section you can see the traffic analysis done for the interchange. Happy reading and perusing. Actually as FDOT projects go, speaking from a good deal of experience, this is the most public and well organized set of materials I have seen.

Edited: Grammer

Thanks for the link. If it isn't funded yet, why are businesses being told they have 18 months to vacate?

 

[Ignohippo]

Add me to the list of "tin foilers" who believe this plan has its origins with Disney. It very much seems that, for $135 million of taxpayer money, a better alternative could have been figured out to save those businesses if that was ever a possible alternative. By eliminating Crossroads, you eliminate the most convenient alternative for dining and shopping for visitors in hotel row or people using the back gate. It certainly isn't the only alternative, but it is definitely the most convenient.

We have heard for years that Disney wanted Crossroads to go away, so why is it such a surprise that it is finally happening? Seems like quite the coincidence.

For those of you saying Crossroads wasn't much competition to Disney, most of those businesses are saying that their Crossroads locations are, if not the best, then among the best in their entire companies. That is an ENORMOUS amount of money that is leaving Disney property every day.

I find it very interesting that the plans use up a huge parcel of land to the north of the loop that could still be used for retail (even with the traffic circle) and that businesses like Uno's, Red Lobster and Perkin's, that could have been spared, are being demolished under this plan for really no reason (an extra turn lane to those businesses could have been included in the plan so that the object of making traffic not slow down when using the traffic circle could still be achieved).

I find it very hard to believe that it hasn't been Disney's plan to attempt to get these restaurants and retailers into Flamingo Crossings, which hasn't taken off the way they envisioned. By eliminating Crossroads, Disney now has a whole list of desirable tenants that will be looking for a new version of Crossroads – which is exactly what Flamingo Crossings was designed to be.

Eliminating Crossroads makes that whole area of Disney property ripe to become what the Back Gate is now. Except that in this case, Disney owns all of the land around Flamingo Crossing (unlike up and down 535), so getting people to start using that area instead of the Back Gate would be an enormous boon for Disney.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Disney sold Crossroads at the exact same time they began developing Flamingo Crossings and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that Disney had their own engineers design this traffic circle to alleviate the congestion going into the Back Gate and suggested it to FDOT. Traffic was a nightmare so this plan would be desirable to FDOT and the elination of Crossroads would help bolster Flamingo Crossings. They knew exactly what they were doing when they sold Crossroads (which a the time had become somewhat dilapidated, was in need of renovation and wasn't nearly as desirable as it is now). It really is brilliant.

 

[Lensman]

Studying the Hotel Boulevard intersection with 535, here's what I think:

- 535 North will be an overpass over the 535 North loop to Hotel Boulevard. The loop will end at a level intersection crossing 535 South with a traffic light. Note that this light will actually be at the edge of the 535 North overpass before the crosswalk as per the map.
- I agree that Hotel Boulevard to 535 North will be a bridge/overpass, but there will still be a traffic light.
- I agree that Hotel Boulevard to 535 South will remain a street level right turn.

The traffic light will have two phases with the following traffic flows:
Phase 1: Hotel Boulevard to 535 North + Hotel Boulevard to 535 South + 535 North Loop to Hotel Boulevard
Phase 2: 535 North to 535 North + 535 South to 535 South + 535 South to Hotel Boulevard
I'd recommend no right turn on red from 535 South because of the blind traffic coming from under the overpass.

This is a slight modification to donsullivan's excellent analysis!

- Westbound I4 to Hotel boulevard will no longer require the crazy merge to the left to get into the left turn lane. You'll now stay in the right lane, go through a loop across the former Crossroads property that will then pass over 535 into Hotel Boulevard.
- Hotel Boulevard to 535 south, no changes
- Hotel Boulevard to 535 north would now go over a bridge to get across the southbound lanes of 535 and then merge into 535 north. Hotel Boulevard would actually split into north and south destined traffic back in front of the Doubletree to prevent the last minute jockeying across lanes that happens today and so northbound traffic can be elevated to pass over the bridge.

Update: I found some supporting text in the Segment_1_Reevaluation_Form_FINAL_ALL.pdf.
On page 10:

Alternative 4 (Recommended Alternative; see Attachment 8) is a modified diamond configuration, which
will impact the entire Crossroads Shopping Plaza to the northwest of the current interchange. This
alternative will provide a one-way loop road connection to Hotel Plaza Boulevard and a new I-4 westbound
off ramp to southbound SR 535 in the northeast quadrant. SR 535 northbound traffic will bridge over and
circumnavigate the new loop road to access Hotel Plaza Boulevard, eliminating the existing north to west
left turn movements. Additionally, the Hotel Plaza Boulevard eastbound dual left turn lane will be elevated
and under signal control at the merge with the SR 535 northbound through lanes.

On page 47:

SR 535 northbound traffic will bridge over Hotel Plaza Boulevard, eliminating the existing
north to west left turn movements at the intersection. The east leg of Hotel Plaza Boulevard, which is
currently the main access for the Crossroads Shopping Plaza will be converted to a new one-way loop road
which will go under SR 535 to provide access to Hotel Plaza Boulevard westbound. Additionally, the Hotel
Plaza Boulevard eastbound through movement will be eliminated, since there will be no plaza to access on
the east side of SR 535.

I think there's something similar at Vineland and 535, if there's interest I'll post my analysis.

Crossroads: I've only been to Goodings, but I have some fond memories of late night grocery shopping there. The past few trips we've gone to Publix for our main grocery shopping.

Finally, why are they adding in additional water retention ponds? Are there not enough in the area or is the work going to significantly increase the paved surface area?

 

[donsullivan]

Studying the Hotel Boulevard intersection with 535, here's what I think:
View attachment 276885
- 535 North will be an overpass over the 535 North loop to Hotel Boulevard. The loop will end at a level intersection crossing 535 South with a traffic light. Note that this light will actually be at the edge of the 535 North overpass before the crosswalk as per the map.
- I agree that Hotel Boulevard to 535 North will be a bridge/overpass, but there will still be a traffic light.
- I agree that Hotel Boulevard to 535 South will remain a street level right turn.

The traffic light will have two phases with the following traffic flows:
Phase 1: Hotel Boulevard to 535 North + Hotel Boulevard to 535 South + 535 North Loop to Hotel Boulevard
Phase 2: 535 North to 535 North + 535 South to 535 South + 535 South to Hotel Boulevard
I'd recommend no right turn on red from 535 South because of the blind traffic coming from under the overpass.

This is a slight modification to donsullivan's excellent analysis!


I think there's something similar at Vineland and 535, if there's interest I'll post my analysis.

Crossroads: I've only been to Goodings, but I have some fond memories of late night grocery shopping there. The past few trips we've gone to Publix for our main grocery shopping.

Finally, why are they adding in additional water retention ponds? Are there not enough in the area or is the work going to significantly increase the paved surface area?

My understanding is that the water retention ponds are being driven by the widening of I4 to 10 lanes which will add even more impermeable surface in the immediate area requiring expanded runoff retention ponds. Runoff regulations do not allow them to just let the water flow off the road in developed areas like that, they need something to absorb those crazy summer thunderstorms and the occasional hurricane

 

[Master Yoda]

Thanks for the link. If it isn't funded yet, why are businesses being told they have 18 months to vacate?

Most likely because the funding, while not allocated yet, is not in question and it gives the businesses as much advance notice as possible.

 

[s8film40]

535 past LBV was upgraded years ago. Back in my day it was a dangerous, two-lanes curvy road complete with a trolley that crossed at one point. We had lumber stickers that said "Pray for me, I drive 535"

That was indeed a major expansion of that whole path from the death trap it used to be at night to a smooth flowing route in support of all the residential development that has occurred north of the WDW property since. The traffic from all that development is one of the drivers for this whole project.

The 535 project actually caused quite a bit of controversy. It was done prior to any development back there. It was a small winding country road. When WDW opened they required all of their CM's to enter property that way rather than going in the front with the guests. In fact there's a story from opening day where the news helicopter was following what they thought was the first mass of crowds heading into the park and they all turned off and went up 535 and were CM's not the quests. It became obvious the road couldn't handle all the traffic, so Disney wanted it improved. The county didn't want to spend the money for a road that really only served WDW. Disney launched a campaign. They created the (accurate) public image that the road was very dangerous. They put up billboards at the north entrance to the property that said something like "congratulations you arrived alive after driving 535". Finally the county had to give in and improve the road. It's really one of the first and most classic examples of how Disney usually gets their way.

The development back there didn't really start until after Disney took the security booth out post 9/11. Once it was possible to use the routes through Disney property it became a more desirable location to live. I've always wondered what would happen if Disney decided to cut that off again.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Did this project have Disney's influence, likely indirectly? Probably.

Does this project benefit Disney? Probably.

Will this project improve traffic flow for everyone in the area? Definitely.

I'm generally wary/suspicious of public projects that seem to give more than a little nod to The Mouse in Orlando, but the scales on this one tip in favor of benefitting the general driving public far more.

 

[Tom Morrow]

The 535 project actually caused quite a bit of controversy. It was done prior to any development back there. It was a small winding country road. When WDW opened they required all of their CM's to enter property that way rather than going in the front with the guests. In fact there's a story from opening day where the news helicopter was following what they thought was the first mass of crowds heading into the park and they all turned off and went up 535 and were CM's not the quests. It became obvious the road couldn't handle all the traffic, so Disney wanted it improved. The county didn't want to spend the money for a road that really only served WDW. Disney launched a campaign. They created the (accurate) public image that the road was very dangerous. They put up billboards at the north entrance to the property that said something like "congratulations you arrived alive after driving 535". Finally the county had to give in and improve the road. It's really one of the first and most classic examples of how Disney usually gets their way.

The development back there didn't really start until after Disney took the security booth out post 9/11. Once it was possible to use the routes through Disney property it became a more desirable location.

Where would the security booth you're referring to have been?

 

[s8film40]

Did this project have Disney's influence, likely indirectly? Probably.

Does this project benefit Disney? Probably.

Will this project improve traffic flow for everyone in the area? Definitely.

I'm generally wary/suspicious of public projects that seem to give more than a little nod to The Mouse in Orlando, but the scales on this one tip in favor of benefitting the general driving public far more.

I agree with your logic, but my issue is that this will be a marginal improvement to traffic in an area that really isn't all that bad compared to a very large number of other problem areas. They're spending a very large amount of money to first buy out this center then on the construction, when a simple extra lane or two would be SIGNIFANTLY cheaper and net similar results.

Where would the security booth you're referring to have been?

It was just off Reams road on Center Dr. Basically from 1971 - 2001 if you didn't have a Disney ID and were in that area north of WDW your only option was to drive all the way around.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Will this project improve traffic flow for everyone in the area? Definitely.

There is nothing definite about this project improving traffic. Highway expansions very often do not provide the improved conditions they promise.

 

[s8film40]

There is nothing definite about this project improving traffic. Highway expansions very often do not provide the improved conditions they promise.

I think the number one factor this has going for it improving traffic is the closure of a large number of businesses. Obviously with those businesses gone the demand for this exit will drop. It's by far the stupidest way to reduce traffic, but it's hard to deny it works. If you closed MK you would greatly reduce the traffic on World Dr. same thing here.

 

[donsullivan]

The 535 project actually caused quite a bit of controversy. It was done prior to any development back there. It was a small winding country road. When WDW opened they required all of their CM's to enter property that way rather than going in the front with the guests. In fact there's a story from opening day where the news helicopter was following what they thought was the first mass of crowds heading into the park and they all turned off and went up 535 and were CM's not the quests. It became obvious the road couldn't handle all the traffic, so Disney wanted it improved. The county didn't want to spend the money for a road that really only served WDW. Disney launched a campaign. They created the (accurate) public image that the road was very dangerous. They put up billboards at the north entrance to the property that said something like "congratulations you arrived alive after driving 535". Finally the county had to give in and improve the road. It's really one of the first and most classic examples of how Disney usually gets their way.

The development back there didn't really start until after Disney took the security booth out post 9/11. Once it was possible to use the routes through Disney property it became a more desirable location to live. I've always wondered what would happen if Disney decided to cut that off again.View attachment 276912

The first time I went that way was indeed to get to the north Service area for a work project in a past life in the Disney Data Center (DISC) back there. It was a 2 lane road to 'nowhere' and then Reams Road was even smaller. Once it became practical to get there the development did indeed go crazy.

Once they finish the re-route of World Drive around the MK parking booths and the re-route of Floridian Way around the west side of the North Service Area, it will be even easier to make that path through the property. My guess is once those routes are in place, they may resecure the North Service Area as there will be a new route through the property that doesn't require you pass through there.

 

[s8film40]

The first time I went that way was indeed to get to the north Service area for a work project in a past life in the Disney Data Center (DISC) back there. It was a 2 lane road to 'nowhere' and then Reams Road was even smaller. Once it became practical to get there the development did indeed go crazy.

Once they finish the re-route of World Drive around the MK parking booths and the re-route of Floridian Way around the west side of the North Service Area, it will be even easier to make that path through the property. My guess is once those routes are in place, they may resecure the North Service Area as there will be a new route through the property that doesn't require you pass through there.

Yeah I haven't followed that project too much. Are those Reedy Creek funded roads? I've always said I would never want to buy into anything in that area because Disney could always just cut off that access if they wanted to. If they're RCID roads then they would be publicly funded and Disney wouldn't really have a choice in the matter. I would think that would spur even more growth in the area. Of course 429 has also been a help in providing transportation options to that area as well.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Add me to the list of "tin foilers" who believe this plan has its origins with Disney. It very much seems that, for $135 million of taxpayer money, a better alternative could have been figured out to save those businesses if that was ever a possible alternative. By eliminating Crossroads, you eliminate the most convenient alternative for dining and shopping for visitors in hotel row or people using the back gate. It certainly isn't the only alternative, but it is definitely the most convenient.

We have heard for years that Disney wanted Crossroads to go away, so why is it such a surprise that it is finally happening? Seems like quite the coincidence.

For those of you saying Crossroads wasn't much competition to Disney, most of those businesses are saying that their Crossroads locations are, if not the best, then among the best in their entire companies. That is an ENORMOUS amount of money that is leaving Disney property every day.

I find it very interesting that the plans use up a huge parcel of land to the north of the loop that could still be used for retail (even with the traffic circle) and that businesses like Uno's, Red Lobster and Perkin's, that could have been spared, are being demolished under this plan for really no reason (an extra turn lane to those businesses could have been included in the plan so that the object of making traffic not slow down when using the traffic circle could still be achieved).

I find it very hard to believe that it hasn't been Disney's plan to attempt to get these restaurants and retailers into Flamingo Crossings, which hasn't taken off the way they envisioned. By eliminating Crossroads, Disney now has a whole list of desirable tenants that will be looking for a new version of Crossroads – which is exactly what Flamingo Crossings was designed to be.

Eliminating Crossroads makes that whole area of Disney property ripe to become what the Back Gate is now. Except that in this case, Disney owns all of the land around Flamingo Crossing (unlike up and down 535), so getting people to start using that area instead of the Back Gate would be an enormous boon for Disney.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Disney sold Crossroads at the exact same time they began developing Flamingo Crossings and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that Disney had their own engineers design this traffic circle to alleviate the congestion going into the Back Gate and suggested it to FDOT. Traffic was a nightmare so this plan would be desirable to FDOT and the elination of Crossroads would help bolster Flamingo Crossings. They knew exactly what they were doing when they sold Crossroads (which a the time had become somewhat dilapidated, was in need of renovation and wasn't nearly as desirable as it is now). It really is brilliant.

Excellent, detailed analysis. Agree completely.

Flamingo crossing was stupid...because nobody really wants to be on the north/west side of property. As much as the old tourist market area stinks...at least it’s not Urban Sprawl and cheap housing in an area that was built even more cheaply on the fringes

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Taking out business on 535 for ineffective “traffic enhancements” has paw prints all over it.

But interestingly this is part of the overall major transport expansion in reedy creek to handle a lot more people.

So what will your fantastic value park look like then?

 

[the.dreamfinder]

There is nothing definite about this project improving traffic. Highway expansions very often do not provide the improved conditions they promise.

See induced demand.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

There is nothing definite about this project improving traffic. Highway expansions very often do not provide the improved conditions they promise.

Boy...you ain’t kidding. Like that private for “profit” road stupidity on I-4?

 

[ford91exploder]

Taking out business on 535 for ineffective “traffic enhancements” has paw prints all over it.

But interestingly this is part of the overall major transport expansion in reedy creek to handle a lot more people.

So what will your fantastic value park look like then?

Even more of a dumpster fire than it is today...

 

[jimbo mack]

Thanks for the link. If it isn't funded yet, why are businesses being told they have 18 months to vacate?

Yes it does seem odd - without funding there can be no sign off & project launch?