Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[DisneyCane]

There is zero...ZERO judgements to refer to on the legality of mask mandates. Let me guess: you’re a “constitutionalist”

I think it is clear that I am but what difference does it make? In our system of government the federal government does not have the authority to implement mandates like that. Even the Obamacare individual mandate had to be done by a tax law. Mandating a national speed limit had to be done with forcing states to do it in return for road funding.

It is not legal for the federal government to implement a mask mandate. If the federal government did it and it went to the supreme court it would be struck down 9-0 so it isn't a judicial philosophy question.

A state can do it but would have to pass a law unless they happen to have an existing law that explicitly gives that power to the governor (or other local executive) in an emergency. I've read the Florida laws and there is no current legal authority that allows for it.

 

[DisneyCane]

It’s not the “middle of the game” if something didn’t exist.

We need comprehensive “anti-whining” regs...we’ve gone soft.
And a constitutional amendment barring utter stupidity due to lack of historical understanding.

Viruses have existed and others can be transmitted in the same way and be deadly to people. Even novel strains of the flu existed. It's not like before SARS-CoV-2 there was nothing serious that could be transmitted in a restaurant.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Here is a crazy and novel idea, what if all the States worked together with the Federal government and had a plan? Its what they have done here, all the provinces and the federal government were on the same page. Its working, there is very little arguing over masks and very few conspiracy theorists.

Work together? You mean have a national plan on how to try and control or curb this thing? You mean everyone working together for a common goal? The audacity of you!

 

[DisneyCane]

....or there‘s a worldwide pandemic and people in large numbers just aren‘t willing to spend large amounts of time in crowded public places while cases surge. The restaurant industry isn’t being helped by widespread community spread. It’s way too oversimplified to assume there’s only 2 options, restrictions and no restrictions and the restriction option protects people at the expense of the economy while the no restrictions option protects the economy at the expense of health. There’s a middle ground. For example, keep bars closed, help out bar owners. Keep indoor, large group venues closed and help out those whose business is adversely impacted. The rest of the economy could be open. There are some good examples around the world of places where they have gotten the virus under control and the economy is way more open and doing way better than here. New Zealand being the most extreme example. They had several very long runs with great economic success.

On travel quarantines you are way off. A governor has to do what it takes to keep his state safe and open. Letting people travel to hot spots to patronize businesses there and then come back and spread the virus while your own businesses are closed makes no sense. They knew this summer from contact tracing efforts a large number of cases were coming from travel. It’s not a conspiracy theory it’s just sound policy for someone looking to follow a plan. WDW is suffering because of Covid. That’s a fact. If every state and the company itself removed all Covid restrictions they wouldn’t be back to anything close to normal economically. It’s a pipe dream based too much on assuming everyone thinks like you. Various polling has been done to show the general public prefers the restrictions to keep them safe. WDW‘s issues are caused by Covid not artificial restrictions.

Travel quarantines between states are probably not legal due to interference with interstate commerce which only congress can regulate. I don't pay attention to polling, I pay attention to what I see. What I see is when bars were opened in south Florida, they were immediately packed. I heard people on flights traveling to Florida in the early summer talking about getting out of their states and going where they can go to a restaurant. Even your example below shows people running away from restrictions.

People may tell a pollster that they support restrictions but many people tell pollsters what they think they want to hear so that they get approval from the stranger they are talking to. Also, the way the question is presented makes a big difference. "Do you support restrictions that prevent the spread of COVID to keep you from possibly ending up in the hospital or dying?" would get a different result than "If there were no restrictions in place, would you go out to eat tonight?"

Simply not true. I know you are going to believe what you want, but in areas this summer that had much lower case counts it was actually more possible to do some contact tracing in an effective manner and there was absolutely a connection to travel to hot spots. One county near me in PA was able to trace 50% of their new cases in a week to out of state travel primarily to Myrtle Beach, FL and TX. This was when bars in PA were still closed and young people were grabbing cheap flights to go South to party. Whether you choose to believe it or not it absolutely was happening.

That doesn't change the fact that a given individual is not likely to be infected even if they were in a hot spot. Is it more likely than if they hadn't gone? Absolutely. However, there is still less than a 2% chance that a given individual is infected. A quarantine of 100% of people when at least 98% are not infected is not justifiable.

 

[DisneyCane]

Here is a crazy and novel idea, what if all the States worked together with the Federal government and had a plan? Its what they have done here, all the provinces and the federal government were on the same page. Its working, there is very little arguing over masks and very few conspiracy theorists.

Is it really working that well? Canada has around 2 million less people than the State of California and over 23 times the land area. Are the "numbers," especially recently, all that much better when comparing the two and considering that the lower the population density, the easier it is to control a virus like this?

 

[techgeek]

Since we're discussing the legality of a national mask mandate (and the legality of other pandemic related restrictions)...

This administration in particular has seen no need for restraint in the scope of its use of executive orders... some, like the recent unemployment 'extension', also had questions raised regarding legality. Does anybody really think that "it would be unconstitutional!" is the major roadblock here? Because I'm pretty sure if it were perceived as desirable, words would be twisted enough to find a way.

 

[Horizons '83]

Since we're discussing the legality of a national mask mandate (and the legality of other pandemic related restrictions)...

This administration in particular has seen no need for restraint in the scope of its use of executive orders... some, like the recent unemployment 'extension', also had questions raised regarding legality. Does anybody really think that "it would be unconstitutional!" is the major roadblock here? Because I'm pretty sure if it were perceived as desirable, words would be twisted enough to find a way.

Our "President" had no problem building a wall using an executive order, using taxpayer funds no less, out of an abundance of caution for American "safety" but a national mask mandate is out of the question? The world in which we live is a bit scary right now, and I'm not even talking about the virus

 

[Jrb1979]

Is it really working that well? Canada has around 2 million less people than the State of California and over 23 times the land area. Are the "numbers," especially recently, all that much better when comparing the two and considering that the lower the population density, the easier it is to control a virus like this?

Yes our numbers have gone up. It is working well, the issue is and it's the same where you are is that the cases are coming from family gatherings and private parties for the most part. You know places where people don't wear masks. What I was getting at is with everyone working together it never became political.

 

[DisneyCane]

Since we're discussing the legality of a national mask mandate (and the legality of other pandemic related restrictions)...

This administration in particular has seen no need for restraint in the scope of its use of executive orders... some, like the recent unemployment 'extension', also had questions raised regarding legality. Does anybody really think that "it would be unconstitutional!" is the major roadblock here? Because I'm pretty sure if it were perceived as desirable, words would be twisted enough to find a way.

The last administration did the same thing with executive orders (DACA anyone?). Even if the unemployment extension is not legal, is the opposing party going to fight against it? Probably not the best political look. While it might be illegal, it isn't unconstitutional and no politician is going to be against it.

Our "President" had no problem building a wall using an executive order, using taxpayer funds no less, out of an abundance of caution for American "safety" but a national mask mandate is out of the question? The world in which we live is a bit scary right now, and I'm not even talking about the virus

Finding a loophole to use executive orders to direct funds and mandating the behavior of individuals are two very different things. The constitution enumerates individual rights and restricts what the government can do to individuals and states. It doesn't restrict the government from erecting a giant rubik's cube statue over half of Nebraska if it wanted to (and purchased the land at fair market value).

Yes our numbers have gone up. It is working well, the issue is and it's the same where you are is that the cases are coming from family gatherings and private parties for the most part. You know places where people don't wear masks. What I was getting at is with everyone working together it never became political.

It never became political because the Canadian media and opposition party don't have hatred for the Prime Minister.

 

[marni1971]

How about forget legal and politics and instead just do what’s the right thing ?

It’s coming. Be ready.

 

[Horizons '83]

The last administration did the same thing with executive orders (DACA anyone?). Even if the unemployment extension is not legal, is the opposing party going to fight against it? Probably not the best political look. While it might be illegal, it isn't unconstitutional and no politician is going to be against it.

Finding a loophole to use executive orders to direct funds and mandating the behavior of individuals are two very different things. The constitution enumerates individual rights and restricts what the government can do to individuals and states. It doesn't restrict the government from erecting a giant rubik's cube statue over half of Nebraska if it wanted to (and purchased the land at fair market value).

It never became political because the Canadian media and opposition party don't have hatred for the Prime Minister.

When there is a will there is a way. We simply need to use our brains, ever so slightly, wouldn't want to put to much stress on our politicians, to do what is right, scientifically and common sense wise as Martin alluded to above. Remember the phrase, short term pain for long term gain?

 

[DisneyDebRob]

When there is a will there is a way. We simply need to use our brains, ever so slightly, wouldn't want to put to much stress on our politicians, to do what is right, scientifically and common sense wise as Martin alluded to above. Remember the phrase, short term pain for long term gain?

The times of people in this country making a sacrifice for the better good is long gone. Most people have no idea what our grandparents and their parents sacrificed through wars.. recessions.. pandemics.. for the good of all. It’s a “ I should be able to go out and not wear a mask if I want” attitude now. The constitution was in place back then also but people knew what they needed to do to make things better for all. Was their discussion on things that might not be constitutional? Of course, there are many examples of it but in the end, for almost every problem, they all worked together and solved it.
Funny thing is, the scientists aren’t even asking for a big sacrifice here. Wear masks and socially distance? Our forefathers would have laughed at that even being called a sacrifice. But here we are. We are going to need a good 20 years I think and a huge person/persons in office to get us back on track.

 

[Unbanshee]

How about forget legal and politics and instead just do what’s the right thing ?

It’s coming. Be ready.

Let me guess. Open a portion of DCA for shopping and dining

 

[wdwmagic]

How about forget legal and politics and instead just do what’s the right thing ?

It’s coming. Be ready.

Unfortunately common sense appears to be missing at this most critical time. Let's hope common sense prevails at the polls.

 

[baymenxpac]

I suggest that the question is not whether there have been any cases emanating from WDW. After all, there are documented cases originating from locations where even the strictest precautions are observed.

Instead, the question is whether WDW is more or less safe than elsewhere?

When you consider the number of cases reported at other densely populated areas, I respectfully suggest that, so far, WDW has done well.

WDW's theme parks and hotels are private property with essentially no native residents, allowing Disney to enforce strict rules.

You don't like wearing masks, temperature checks, or social distancing? Disney can ban you.

We have thousands of travelers from around the country intermingling at WDW every day. Despite this, we have had no reports of major outbreaks (knock wood) after more than 3 months of operation.

To date, WDW is the proving ground that mask wearing, temperature checks, social distancing, and regular disinfecting reduce the spread of COVID-19.

i agree with that premise, i would just hesitate to say correlation is causation in this. it could be, but i don't think we have enough data or proof.

the nature of covid seems to be clear: it spreads through an area, reaches about a measurable infection rate of 15-to-20%, then fizzles. happened in the northeast in march, the sunbelt in july, and now it's the plains. whatever the factors are, we know that once a geographic region hits 15-to-20% (which doesn't mean only that rate has been infected, just that's what we can see/project through various metrics), it's impact really grinds to halt. the only place that really has "two waves" is louisiana, because the first was likely seeded by the northeast during mardi gras in new orleans. then the rest of the state went up with the sunbelt spike, which is what most would have expected.

so with the nature of testing being local to your jurisdiction (unless you develop symptoms or get a test for some other reason -- like an unrelated hospital admittance during your stay), i don't really know if we'll ever be able to say WDW visits cause/don't cause "outbreaks" or that measurable cases were prevented through disney's safety protocols (of all of them, i think temperature checks are -- surprisingly -- the most effective, considering symptoms always correlate with higher levels of infection and contagiousness).

i agree going to disney is safe. i also think that going most places is safe.

 

[Disstevefan1]

What is optimistic about anything you said?

If you believe the goal was “just as long as I don’t die...” then you only paid attention to about 10% of the story

Yes, I am optimistic about the somewhat flat death rate. Yes, optimism is one of my faults but I am optimistic I can overcome that faut in myself

 

[baymenxpac]

Since we're discussing the legality of a national mask mandate (and the legality of other pandemic related restrictions)...

This administration in particular has seen no need for restraint in the scope of its use of executive orders... some, like the recent unemployment 'extension', also had questions raised regarding legality. Does anybody really think that "it would be unconstitutional!" is the major roadblock here? Because I'm pretty sure if it were perceived as desirable, words would be twisted enough to find a way.

well, trump could have seized emergency powers in march when many people on both sides of the aisle were begging him to. maybe he wanted to (he might have. he probably did). but ultimately, he deferred to the states because of their constitutional rights. so yeah, i think this administration -- whatever you think of it, most justified, some not -- does consider constitutionality.

 

[GimpYancIent]

When there is a will there is a way. We simply need to use our brains, ever so slightly, wouldn't want to put to much stress on our politicians, to do what is right, scientifically and common sense wise as Martin alluded to above. Remember the phrase, short term pain for long term gain?

COVID19 is here! It is not coming. The laundry list of precautionary measures that can be taken to help reduce the spread (masks are top of the list) do not stop the illness from spreading, merely help reduce that spread. The no shirt, no shoe's no service concept needs to now include masks when it comes to business establishments and their customers. Mask requirements in work places is understandable. The concept of mandating masks be worn as soon as you step out of your home to go or do anything is crap! There is a time and place for everything! COVID19 is an equal opportunity infector it does not care who you are, what position your hold, what title you have, your educational level or, you ready, age! COVID19 does not care about any laws, regulations or policies it is an illness and it is going to continue to spread, it is very survivable and the spread can be slowed. This is a global issue and the countries that have mandated things like masks have not fared any better than anyone else, actually suffering more now. So much for short term pain for long term gain?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes, I am optimistic about the somewhat flat death rate. Yes, optimism is one of my faults but I am optimistic I can overcome that faut in myself

Alright...fair.

My stance is that none of the data will help travel/Disney/economic issues. I’ll see how it goes.

 

[GoofGoof]

Travel quarantines between states are probably not legal due to interference with interstate commerce which only congress can regulate. I don't pay attention to polling, I pay attention to what I see. What I see is when bars were opened in south Florida, they were immediately packed. I heard people on flights traveling to Florida in the early summer talking about getting out of their states and going where they can go to a restaurant. Even your example below shows people running away from restrictions.

People may tell a pollster that they support restrictions but many people tell pollsters what they think they want to hear so that they get approval from the stranger they are talking to. Also, the way the question is presented makes a big difference. "Do you support restrictions that prevent the spread of COVID to keep you from possibly ending up in the hospital or dying?" would get a different result than "If there were no restrictions in place, would you go out to eat tonight?"


That doesn't change the fact that a given individual is not likely to be infected even if they were in a hot spot. Is it more likely than if they hadn't gone? Absolutely. However, there is still less than a 2% chance that a given individual is infected. A quarantine of 100% of people when at least 98% are not infected is not justifiable.

You are just looking at an anecdotal situation and assuming that how everyone thinks. Your local bar opened with no restrictions and people went therefore if WDW opened with no restrictions it would be packed. It’s a different demographic completely. Like I said, that local bar may be doing ok financially (many still aren’t) but it’s at the detriment to the overall economy.

On the quarantine side you are wrong on legality. The states are not stopping anyone from traveling out or traveling in, they are just requiring a 14 day quarantine if you came from or went to a hot spot. It’s perfectly legal.

I love how any poll that doesn‘t fit the narrative is automatically fake news...the Trump factor. Easy to dismiss anything that goes against your point of view. Is it possible that people lied to a pollster? Sure. Did they all lie? Unlikely. What’s in it for them to lie? It‘s much more likely that the polls done were fairly accurate and what we are seeing at WDW and Universal supports the poll results. Both resorts have closed a large number of their hotel rooms and cut hours and offerings at the parks to a bare minimum level. That’s all a sign that out of state tourists aren’t coming back any time soon despite FL lifting all restrictions on anything at the state level. They have their own guest polling (I guess people could be lying to them too) that tell them whether Covid restrictions are popular or not and since neither park has moved away from them despite being given a green light by the Governor should be exhibit A of proof that people want the safety measures in place.