Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Chi84

Premium Member
I thought that was an interesting article. It mirrored some of what I'd read other places. The idea was presented in the spring that things would close and open and close and open in cycles. This is what has happened many places, but I guess not so much in California. The reclosing is not easy, but it's probably better than never reopening. As the doctor in the article noted, a relief valve makes a big difference for people. I sure hope things improve out there soon.
I do too. It's much easier to fix the blame than to fix the problem, which is what we're seeing in this thread. The next few months are going to be rough, and we need guidance from leaders who will deal with the realities of how people behave, not just express hate for them. It may be a good release for people on a WDW planning board, but it does nothing to fix the problem.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
Picked this to reply, but there’s at least a dozen other posts that hit the same trend. There’s a fixation on lockdown or restrictions vs nothing. As if the only solutions were for everyone to isolate and wait on a vaccine or rampant COVID spread. This is a total failure of national leadership and policy, along with news media reporting accepting this narrative.

The restrictions we're doing are unsustainable long term. The entire point 9 months ago was for them to be temporary, provide a pause in infection spread and allow other mitigation controls to be implemented. Instead, we stopped, called them good enough, and didn’t do any of those things in a coordinated meaningful way.

The fact that we're still debating if the band aid solutions should continue or not just highlights the utter failure of our response.

Sure, when a band aid is all we have, we should keep doing it. But the real anger is about why that’s all we have as a response. Coupled with that because we gave up, even the band aid isn’t implemented correctly.
Thank you for articulating this so well - best post I've seen on this thread.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
I posted the Broward County order a few pages ago. It sure as heck was a lockdown order. You were only allowed to leave your property for things deemed essential by the County. So no, we could not freely come and go.

Stop saying nobody in the US were locked down.

I looked through the Broward County orders from March and I can't find one that talks about a "lockdown". The closest I found was 20-03 which only says "Individuals are strongly urged to remain home other than to engage in essential activities". Maybe I am missing the one you are referring to.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
Picked this to reply, but there’s at least a dozen other posts that hit the same trend. There’s a fixation on lockdown or restrictions vs nothing. As if the only solutions were for everyone to isolate and wait on a vaccine or rampant COVID spread. This is a total failure of national leadership and policy, along with news media reporting accepting this narrative.

The restrictions we're doing are unsustainable long term. The entire point 9 months ago was for them to be temporary, provide a pause in infection spread and allow other mitigation controls to be implemented. Instead, we stopped, called them good enough, and didn’t do any of those things in a coordinated meaningful way.

The fact that we're still debating if the band aid solutions should continue or not just highlights the utter failure of our response.

Sure, when a band aid is all we have, we should keep doing it. But the real anger is about why that’s all we have as a response. Coupled with that because we gave up, even the band aid isn’t implemented correctly.
I agree it's not sustainable long term. Once the vaccine is readily available and the majority have taken it, restrictions will start to drop. By the end of the year things will start to be normal.

Here's the thing though, masks and social distancing were always going to be in place til the vaccine was given to the majority of people. No matter what other mitigation measures they put in place to help masks and social distancing wasn't disappearing. I do agree they should have kept with doing more mitigation measures. The problem is it became political. At this point you can't change that. Its why people have to get used to mask wearing and social distancing for awhile longer.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
I looked through the Broward County orders from March and I can't find one that talks about a "lockdown". The closest I found was 20-03 which only says "Individuals are strongly urged to remain home other than to engage in essential activities". Maybe I am missing the one you are referring to.

Upon research, it wasn't a Broward County order. All of the municipalities in Broward County got together and made essentially the same order together but at the municipal level instead of county level.

Here are two of them:

https://www.fortlauderdale.gov/home/showpublisheddocument?id=45808
https://www.davie-fl.gov/DocumentCenter/View/11257/TOD-EO-2020-02-Safer-at-Home-Order

They state:

"Each resident ... is hereby ordered to stay home and within the entirety of their owned or rented property. The order to stay at home does not require residents to confine themselves to the interior of their homes. Residents may make use of all exterior portions of their homes such as patios, porches, yards, and drieveways." Then they list the essential activities for which you are permitted to leave your property.

These were enforceable lockdown orders and not suggestions.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Picked this to reply, but there’s at least a dozen other posts that hit the same trend. There’s a fixation on lockdown or restrictions vs nothing. As if the only solutions were for everyone to isolate and wait on a vaccine or rampant COVID spread. This is a total failure of national leadership and policy, along with news media reporting accepting this narrative.

The restrictions we're doing are unsustainable long term. The entire point 9 months ago was for them to be temporary, provide a pause in infection spread and allow other mitigation controls to be implemented. Instead, we stopped, called them good enough, and didn’t do any of those things in a coordinated meaningful way.

The fact that we're still debating if the band aid solutions should continue or not just highlights the utter failure of our response.

Sure, when a band aid is all we have, we should keep doing it. But the real anger is about why that’s all we have as a response. Coupled with that because we gave up, even the band aid isn’t implemented correctly.
This is exactly the problem. There are way too many people looking at this as black and white. There are not just 2 options, do nothing and full lockdowns until there is a vaccine. There’s a huge grey area in between. As you say, from the start the plan was always to re-open as cases allowed but to ramp up and down as the situation allowed. Once the re-opening occurred this rally cry of “we will never lock down again“ emerged and now any form of pulling back is treated like a return to full lockdowns (which we never actually had, but different argument).

The thing that’s ironic is this article about CA states that people are rebelling against restrictions because the state never opened in the summer when numbers got better, but that’s really not true. It’s a nice talking point but not accurate. In May/June CA bars and restaurants were open including indoor dining. Gyms, barber shops, all retail, schools, etc were all open. Really theme parks and sports stadiums were the major things that never opened. So this narrative that people would accept the restrictions more now if things opened more earlier is just that, a political talking point. CA = liberal = blue state, so there’s a push to label it as being “the most restrictive” but that wasn’t totally true. More restrictive than some places and less than others. This summer CA was way more open than NJ or NYC.

The biggest problem I see is people wanting to have a linear timeline on the pandemic. Like a movie plot they want a progression form one stage to the next. The reality is this is a fluid situation so there needs to be ebbs and flows. It also takes time for things to have an impact so if cases didn’t spike the day or week after Thanksgiving that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a Thanksgiving spike. It takes time. So do the impacts from adding back restrictions. CA implemented their return to stay at home orders and people keep wondering why their cases didn’t flatline. It takes time. It’s been 3 weeks now, but it takes that long to start to see impacts. The other issue is that people are comparing the wrong things. You need to compare CA today to where it would be without those restrictions added 3 weeks ago. It’s impossible to do that, but it’s also impossible to say the restrictions aren’t doing anything too. Even though the cases look bad they could have been worse. We don’t know exactly how much worse, but we know that less people interacting means less cases so it has to be doing something.

One final point, as the vaccines roll out and things get better people need to have a little patience. This dangerous notion that there can be some set, drop dead date where the switch gets flipped is a bad setup for further confusion and delay in a return to normal. We had a goal of vaccinating 20M people by the end of 2020. That’s not going to happen now. We are only a few weeks behind, but the point is these timelines cannot be held as absolutes. When Joe Biden says wear a mask for 100 days he doesn’t mean it’s definitely not going to be needed by May 1. I don‘t believe he meant that and haven’t seen a whole lot of talk along those lines but people need to stay flexible. Maybe we get there by May 1, maybe it’s July 1 and maybe it’s October 1 (hopefully not). Setting up expectations that it’s set in stone to be May 1 is only adding to our problems, not helping at all.
 

jlhwdw

Well-Known Member
Upon research, it wasn't a Broward County order. All of the municipalities in Broward County got together and made essentially the same order together but at the municipal level instead of county level.

Here are two of them:

https://www.fortlauderdale.gov/home/showpublisheddocument?id=45808
https://www.davie-fl.gov/DocumentCenter/View/11257/TOD-EO-2020-02-Safer-at-Home-Order

They state:

"Each resident ... is hereby ordered to stay home and within the entirety of their owned or rented property. The order to stay at home does not require residents to confine themselves to the interior of their homes. Residents may make use of all exterior portions of their homes such as patios, porches, yards, and drieveways." Then they list the essential activities for which you are permitted to leave your property.

These were enforceable lockdown orders and not suggestions.
I read the first link. It tells you to stay home in Section 2 unless you are engaging in something from Section 3.

And in Section 3, you can essentially be out and about to grocery shop, pick up takeout, go to the bank, pick up the dry cleaning, get your pool cleaned, buy a lawn mower to mow your lawn, take your dog to the vet, and get gas and pick up a Slurpee from 7 Eleven.

A lockdown means if you open your door and go walk down your driveway you will be fined and/or arrested. You can go grocery shopping alone on your designated timeslot of Tuesday from 10am-11am. Try and go visit a friend across town and you'll be pulled over and potentially arrested. There is no such thing as takeout from a restaurant. That is what other countries did and that is a lockdown.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
Picked this to reply, but there’s at least a dozen other posts that hit the same trend. There’s a fixation on lockdown or restrictions vs nothing. As if the only solutions were for everyone to isolate and wait on a vaccine or rampant COVID spread. This is a total failure of national leadership and policy, along with news media reporting accepting this narrative.

The restrictions we're doing are unsustainable long term. The entire point 9 months ago was for them to be temporary, provide a pause in infection spread and allow other mitigation controls to be implemented. Instead, we stopped, called them good enough, and didn’t do any of those things in a coordinated meaningful way.

The fact that we're still debating if the band aid solutions should continue or not just highlights the utter failure of our response.

Sure, when a band aid is all we have, we should keep doing it. But the real anger is about why that’s all we have as a response. Coupled with that because we gave up, even the band aid isn’t implemented correctly.

But they WORKED!
The measures worked.
We didn't employ these measures to save the maximum number of lives.
We employed them to keep the rate of infection at one the health care systems could handle - and that's exactly what we achieved.
Now various vaccines are here.
Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Upon research, it wasn't a Broward County order. All of the municipalities in Broward County got together and made essentially the same order together but at the municipal level instead of county level.

Here are two of them:

https://www.fortlauderdale.gov/home/showpublisheddocument?id=45808
https://www.davie-fl.gov/DocumentCenter/View/11257/TOD-EO-2020-02-Safer-at-Home-Order

They state:

"Each resident ... is hereby ordered to stay home and within the entirety of their owned or rented property. The order to stay at home does not require residents to confine themselves to the interior of their homes. Residents may make use of all exterior portions of their homes such as patios, porches, yards, and drieveways." Then they list the essential activities for which you are permitted to leave your property.

These were enforceable lockdown orders and not suggestions.
That’s still a long list of things that were not closed. All outdoor recreation, many retail stores if they sold groceries or essential items, takeout and drive-thru food, other retail businesses (banks, hardware stores, landscaping services, office supply, laundromats), religious services, marinas, construction sites, etc. A full lockdown like they had in some other countries banned most or all of that stuff and allowed only very essential things like buying groceries and going to the pharmacy and only at limited times. I would still call that a stay at home order vs a lockdown but that‘s probably semantics.
 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
But they WORKED!
The measures worked.
We didn't employ these measures to save the maximum number of lives.
We employed them to keep the rate of infection at one the health care systems could handle - and that's exactly what we achieved.
Now various vaccines are here.
Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
They worked for a time....now, in many areas, hospitals are facing shortages again. So for those areas, shutdown/stay at home orders/tighter restrictions are needed. Look up Los Angeles right now.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
But they WORKED!
The measures worked.
We didn't employ these measures to save the maximum number of lives.
We employed them to keep the rate of infection at one the health care systems could handle - and that's exactly what we achieved.
Now various vaccines are here.
Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
Except we're worse than when first enacted because we relaxed too much.

Do you know when all your adult loved ones can get the vaccine? Kids? Current mission is not accomplished. Only spring and summer's was accomplished and only in some areas.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
But they WORKED!
The measures worked.
We didn't employ these measures to save the maximum number of lives.
We employed them to keep the rate of infection at one the health care systems could handle - and that's exactly what we achieved.
Now various vaccines are here.
Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
True, but we aren’t there yet. We can see the light at the end of the tunnel but aren’t over the finish line. CA is a good example right now. They needed to reinstate stay at home as cases spiked and hospitals were overrun. As cases drop back down those restrictions will be eased and eventually the full impact of the vaccine is felt (hopefully by Spring) and we are done. The same thing is happening now where I live in PA. We aren’t back to full stay at home but they have closed indoor dining and gyms and some other indoor group activities. Those restrictions are needed because of the spike in cases and will unwind as the cases come down. So I would say the ramp up and down of restrictions has worked in some places and the mission is being accomplished. Not done yet though.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
I agree it's not sustainable long term. Once the vaccine is readily available and the majority have taken it, restrictions will start to drop. By the end of the year things will start to be normal.

Here's the thing though, masks and social distancing were always going to be in place til the vaccine was given to the majority of people. No matter what other mitigation measures they put in place to help masks and social distancing wasn't disappearing. I do agree they should have kept with doing more mitigation measures. The problem is it became political. At this point you can't change that. Its why people have to get used to mask wearing and social distancing for awhile longer.
You don’t wear a mask or get a vaccine to prevent the spread of TB in the US. Both are options, but our public health response takes other measures to prevent the spread of TB. They would be harder with COVID, but totally possible if we had a policy direction and funding nationally to try. The vaccine doesn’t get us back to normal, low community spread that’s identified and isolated fast does. The vaccine is just one way to reduce spread.

This is exactly the problem. There are way too many people looking at this as black and white. There are not just 2 options, do nothing and full lockdowns until there is a vaccine. There’s a huge grey area in between. As you say, from the start the plan was always to re-open as cases allowed but to ramp up and down as the situation allowed. Once the re-opening occurred this rally cry of “we will never lock down again“ emerged and now any form of pulling back is treated like a return to full lockdowns (which we never actually had, but different argument).
It’s much worse than that. The initial restrictions were to buy time to implement addition longer term plans. Not to just yo-yo between open/close. It’s the only have a hammer solution instead of getting the correct tools.

But they WORKED!
The measures worked.
We didn't employ these measures to save the maximum number of lives.
We employed them to keep the rate of infection at one the health care systems could handle - and that's exactly what we achieved.
Now various vaccines are here.
Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.
I’m going to pick on this post, you don’t deserve it, but it’s a good stand in for dozens of other posts.

This is like focusing on the first goal in a disaster and then deciding it’s the only goal. At the time, it was the most important, but it was definitely not the only goal. Different posts keep bringing up early goals and using them as the only thing we needed. It’s an absurd argument.

After a hurricane, the first goal is to rescue anyone from flooding and power outages, to save lives in immediate danger. Once that’s done, that doesn’t mean the hurricane response is over. Restoring power, clearing debris, dealing with flooding, rebuilding bridges, changing construction codes all need to happen too.
If this was a hurricane, it’s like we did the first round of removing people from danger and then changed building codes, skipping all the middle steps. Then wonder why we have to keep doing it again and again as the impact from new building codes takes a long time and doesn’t fix all those middle steps.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
Not pushing for one, but yes I gave up my salary willingly for 3 months. We donated as much as we could. Put money into businesses that were struggling. Because that's what people do to help each other during times like this. Our govt should've helped, but they failed us in so many ways.
That's great. and I commend you for it! I think some of the best parts of this pandemic have been things individuals have stepped up and done for others.

But if you gave up your salary for 3 months, were you going without money you needed to pay your bills? Because that's what would be required of many if there was an actual hard shutdown.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
But if you gave up your salary for 3 months, were you going without money you needed to pay your bills? Because that's what would be required of many if there was an actual hard shutdown.
Initially the federal unemployment bonus on top of the state unemployment money easily covered the essential bills.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
It’s much worse than that. The initial restrictions were to buy time to implement addition longer term plans. Not to just yo-yo between open/close. It’s the only have a hammer solution instead of getting the correct tools.
I agree that our overall response has been poor. We could have done so much more. Even in the best case scenario I think we would have still had some yo-yo effect. Take New Zealand as the gold star example. They did things right and cases zeroed out. They had 100 days of no new cases and then an outbreak hit. They immediately shifted to a pull back of public interaction and ramped up a test and tracing strategy. After the outbreak was contained they removed restrictions.
 

DisneyDebRob

Well-Known Member
This is exactly the problem. There are way too many people looking at this as black and white. There are not just 2 options, do nothing and full lockdowns until there is a vaccine. There’s a huge grey area in between. As you say, from the start the plan was always to re-open as cases allowed but to ramp up and down as the situation allowed. Once the re-opening occurred this rally cry of “we will never lock down again“ emerged and now any form of pulling back is treated like a return to full lockdowns (which we never actually had, but different argument).

The thing that’s ironic is this article about CA states that people are rebelling against restrictions because the state never opened in the summer when numbers got better, but that’s really not true. It’s a nice talking point but not accurate. In May/June CA bars and restaurants were open including indoor dining. Gyms, barber shops, all retail, schools, etc were all open. Really theme parks and sports stadiums were the major things that never opened. So this narrative that people would accept the restrictions more now if things opened more earlier is just that, a political talking point. CA = liberal = blue state, so there’s a push to label it as being “the most restrictive” but that wasn’t totally true. More restrictive than some places and less than others. This summer CA was way more open than NJ or NYC.

The biggest problem I see is people wanting to have a linear timeline on the pandemic. Like a movie plot they want a progression form one stage to the next. The reality is this is a fluid situation so there needs to be ebbs and flows. It also takes time for things to have an impact so if cases didn’t spike the day or week after Thanksgiving that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a Thanksgiving spike. It takes time. So do the impacts from adding back restrictions. CA implemented their return to stay at home orders and people keep wondering why their cases didn’t flatline. It takes time. It’s been 3 weeks now, but it takes that long to start to see impacts. The other issue is that people are comparing the wrong things. You need to compare CA today to where it would be without those restrictions added 3 weeks ago. It’s impossible to do that, but it’s also impossible to say the restrictions aren’t doing anything too. Even though the cases look bad they could have been worse. We don’t know exactly how much worse, but we know that less people interacting means less cases so it has to be doing something.

One final point, as the vaccines roll out and things get better people need to have a little patience. This dangerous notion that there can be some set, drop dead date where the switch gets flipped is a bad setup for further confusion and delay in a return to normal. We had a goal of vaccinating 20M people by the end of 2020. That’s not going to happen now. We are only a few weeks behind, but the point is these timelines cannot be held as absolutes. When Joe Biden says wear a mask for 100 days he doesn’t mean it’s definitely not going to be needed by May 1. I don‘t believe he meant that and haven’t seen a whole lot of talk along those lines but people need to stay flexible. Maybe we get there by May 1, maybe it’s July 1 and maybe it’s October 1 (hopefully not). Setting up expectations that it’s set in stone to be May 1 is only adding to our problems, not helping at all.
The main thing you said that jumped out on me is the “ people want to see progression “. A lot of people also just want to be there with no work. They figure they did enough, whatever that was and now it’s time that we just go about our regular business.
I liken it to baking a cake. Everyone wants a piece but it takes time to make and have it come out right. In fact if you forget a ingredient or maybe put to much of something else in, it won’t come out right. Need to go back as far as you can to the beginning to do it right and start again.
On another note I just watched a 15 minute special on New Zealand and thousands of people enjoying concerts and sports. I have to admit I’m jealous. I know, I know.. can’t compare them with us, I get it but what a turn around. They made a comparison of the country to South Carolina. Same amount of people. 25 deaths in new zealand compared to 5000 in South Carolina. Might not be a good comparison but it does say we could have done more.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
You don’t wear a mask or get a vaccine to prevent the spread of TB in the US. Both are options, but our public health response takes other measures to prevent the spread of TB. They would be harder with COVID, but totally possible if we had a policy direction and funding nationally to try. The vaccine doesn’t get us back to normal, low community spread that’s identified and isolated fast does. The vaccine is just one way to reduce spread.


It’s much worse than that. The initial restrictions were to buy time to implement addition longer term plans. Not to just yo-yo between open/close. It’s the only have a hammer solution instead of getting the correct tools.


I’m going to pick on this post, you don’t deserve it, but it’s a good stand in for dozens of other posts.

This is like focusing on the first goal in a disaster and then deciding it’s the only goal. At the time, it was the most important, but it was definitely not the only goal. Different posts keep bringing up early goals and using them as the only thing we needed. It’s an absurd argument.

After a hurricane, the first goal is to rescue anyone from flooding and power outages, to save lives in immediate danger. Once that’s done, that doesn’t mean the hurricane response is over. Restoring power, clearing debris, dealing with flooding, rebuilding bridges, changing construction codes all need to happen too.
If this was a hurricane, it’s like we did the first round of removing people from danger and then changed building codes, skipping all the middle steps. Then wonder why we have to keep doing it again and again as the impact from new building codes takes a long time and doesn’t fix all those middle steps.

It WAS the only goal.
You can't compare it to a natural disaster because there is no physical damage to structures.
No homes destroyed, no power outages, no rebuilding whatsoever.
We shut down to control the rate of spread, and that was the only reason most Americans accepted it.
We feared this would get out of control, with bodies piling up, freezer trucks, first line medical workers dead and dying, and unable to support the dead and dying - further snowballing the problem.
People forget what the possible scenario was.
We didn't come remotely close to it - and yes, that was due in part to the measures we enacted which succeeded in keeping the ate of spread to a manageable one.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
It WAS the only goal.
You can't compare it to a natural disaster because there is no physical damage to structures.
No homes destroyed, no power outages, no rebuilding whatsoever.
We shut down to control the rate of spread, and that was the only reason most Americans accepted it.
We feared this would get out of control, with bodies piling up, freezer trucks, first line medical workers dead and dying, and unable to support the dead and dying - further snowballing the problem.
People forget what the possible scenario was.
We didn't come remotely close to it - and yes, that was due in part to the measures we enacted which succeeded in keeping the ate of spread to a manageable one.
Last time I looked its out of control again.

I'm still amazed at how many of you complain about social distancing and wearing masks. Many parts of Canada is locked down again due to cases rising and ICUs filling
 
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