Changes at DTD

[CaptainMichael]

I have no problem with more restaurants, but use some of that 43 square miles the company loves to pimp. Leave the small parcel of land occupied by the AC alone. Too much to ask?

 

[wdwfan100]

So anyway, now that this has turned into: WE WANT A.C. BACK WAAAAAAH.... and IT IS NOT COMNIG BACK!! GET OVER IT!!! thread, can we find out from the OP when the press release or anouncement is due???

I know it is difficult with the depth of passion expressed toward the AC. But please try to see there is more to it than just the loss of this great attraction. It is the lose of innovation that is at the root of my displeasure. I am frustrated that Disney would shut down such a unique and creative venture as the AC and give way to a chain that I could go and eat at locally. Disney used to be filled with cutting edge innovation. Now they appear to be lazy and everyone is catching up to them.

 

[ImaYoyo]

I don't know anyone in P.R. But I would assume the staffing changes would be announced in the next week or two. As far as the rest, I don't know if it will be announced in chunks, all at once, or if walls will go up w/o a word being said. I hate to be ambiguous, but I don't have timelines. That being said, I'm out of this one.

So anyway, now that this has turned into: WE WANT A.C. BACK WAAAAAAH.... and IT IS NOT COMNIG BACK!! GET OVER IT!!! thread, can we find out from the OP when the press release or anouncement is due???

 

[zulemara]

I don't know anyone in P.R. But I would assume the staffing changes would be announced in the next week or two. As far as the rest, I don't know if it will be announced in chunks, all at once, or if walls will go up w/o a word being said. I hate to be ambiguous, but I don't have timelines. That being said, I'm out of this one.

aaww don't go! I want to know if you know if anything specifically happening with the mannequins/8-trax building. Going away? rethemed? Reopening?

 

[ImaYoyo]

aaww don't go! I want to know if you know if anything specifically happening with the mannequins/8-trax building. Going away? rethemed? Reopening?

Yes, there are plans for that building. The only thing I have not heard plans for is CW.

 

[WDW1974]

I am amused by the idea that third party dining will somehow solve the problems brought about by the DDP. Yes, you need to make a reservation three months (are we back to six yet?) to get a meal at Le cellier or dinner at California Grill that's either not 5:30 or 9:50 p.m.

I dined at Raglan Road, Portobello and Fulton's in the past few weeks. Walked right in. Had no waits. Needed no reservations. Had great food, great service, fair portions and fair price points at all.

The one thing they all had in common is none of them were run by Disney ... but they were all near empty (not uncrowded ... empty) ... and the new Paradiso 37 looked likewise, although I never went in, everytime I walked by it.

People were packing in T-Rex and McD's ... but not the much better quality, smarter options.

And I'll make a prediction that Paradiso won't last a year if they don't do something to draw folks in.

I'll also say they really need to take down the PI signage (including entrance plaque) because right now all they are doing is confusing casual guests who have no clue what PI is and why it isn't open ... but yet some bars are ... and a few Disney crap carts ... and there's music playing.

And again, also, while I don't have the full story on AC at HKDL, my strong guess is that it will be an interactive restaurant. It won't be in the same form as at WDW. I still look forward to it.

 

[lightboy]

Do the "it's about money" people around here not get it.... are you guys for real?... wake up..

Shareholders is what got people into this mess in the first place.... They put a "money man" (Rick Wagoener, Financial Analyst) in charge of GM.... look where that landed them, they've made more versions of the same SUV (cause it's an efficient way of giving people what they want, and put them in black ink), put the Volt on ice (showing a clear lack of inspiration and foresight) and then went bankrupt cause they couldn't compete with foreign car manufacturers...

Chrysler in the 70's went through the same thing... how did they deal with it? They brought in Lee Iacocca, a trained and skilled engineer who then went into sales and marketing... His knowledge of the car coupled with his knowledge of sales turned that company around... then they put a money man in charge again (Robert Nardelli) who drove that company into the ground... It's on life support...

When you think soley about money, there is no vision. Sorry AndrewRnR, you just can't think about profit anymore...

As Lee said Show trumps efficiency.... So what if you make a lot of greenbacks???.... People don't recognize Walt Disney as a man that made a nice dollar, they recognize him as an innovator and entertainer... Carnegie made a lot of bread too, but people don't remember him for that, they remember the work he did to educate/inform and entertain people....

You can't buy a legacy like that, you can't buy an image.... Sometimes it isn't about money, you have to innovate and adapt and look ahead. You can't do that when you've got a bunch of chairmen and stockholders who are wringing their hands like old grandmothers, worried they won't be able to vacation on Maui if the company doesn't hit their forecasted profit margin next quarter...

I've been to AC at least on 4 different occasions, all off season, each time it was shoulder to shoulder, and the barkeeps were slinging the 7 dollar drinks, there is no way that place didn't make some cash.... No way. They simply need to give it a new home (at the Boardwalk or AKL) or a little bit of support (better clubs surrounding it) an presto, they would have been rolling in it... It's as simple as that, anyone with a few braincells left can recognize that this place was a good idea from the get go...It's not going to make hand over fist money, clubs don't do that unless they are selling illegal narcotics or buying cheap gut rot and watering down the drinks...

.... The sooner everyone in north america realizes that it is no longer about making a beautiful dollar, the sooner we will all be out of this mess... We don't make anything anymore, we've stopped taking chances and we've stopped inventing...

Amazing Post. Absolutely Amazing. Best written one I've seen in quite a while.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I have no problem with more restaurants, but use some of that 43 square miles the company loves to pimp. Leave the small parcel of land occupied by the AC alone. Too much to ask?

Not at all. They could have left it, moved it, or expanded it. So much to do.

I am amused by the idea that third party dining will somehow solve the problems brought about by the DDP. Yes, you need to make a reservation three months (are we back to six yet?) to get a meal at Le cellier or dinner at California Grill that's either not 5:30 or 9:50 p.m.

I dined at Raglan Road, Portobello and Fulton's in the past few weeks. Walked right in. Had no waits. Needed no reservations. Had great food, great service, fair portions and fair price points at all.

The one thing they all had in common is none of them were run by Disney ... but they were all near empty (not uncrowded ... empty) ... and the new Paradiso 37 looked likewise, although I never went in, everytime I walked by it.

People were packing in T-Rex and McD's ... but not the much better quality, smarter options.

And I'll make a prediction that Paradiso won't last a year if they don't do something to draw folks in.

I'll also say they really need to take down the PI signage (including entrance plaque) because right now all they are doing is confusing casual guests who have no clue what PI is and why it isn't open ... but yet some bars are ... and a few Disney crap carts ... and there's music playing.

And again, also, while I don't have the full story on AC at HKDL, my strong guess is that it will be an interactive restaurant. It won't be in the same form as at WDW. I still look forward to it.

I haven't been in PI since the closures, but yikes. Sounds like a dead zone.

 

[sittle]

Amazing Post. Absolutely Amazing. Best written one I've seen in quite a while.

Ohh... why thank you... I'll be here all week, and selling books in the lobby! HA HA! Thanks for the props...

My only wish is that it was posted on the first page, not the last...

It's true, we (in North America) don't make anything anymore.... We've stopped creating and taking chances...

We made the ipod at the turn of the millenium, super.... It's a revolutionary product, it changed the way the music industry thinks (another outdated business model) and changes the marketplace for the better. It basically killed the 7 record deal... Now a lot of indie bands (with tonnes of creativity) have been able to make a living with their music again...

I think a lot of these lightweights that answer every post with "Disney has shareholders to appease, and that's the way it should be" need to read it and weep..... We can't run businesses like that anymore, that's what got us into trouble in the first place, it doesn't work.

 

[worldfanatic]

Ohh... why thank you... I'll be here all week, and selling books in the lobby! HA HA! Thanks for the props...

My only wish is that it was posted on the first page, not the last...

It's true, we (in North America) don't make anything anymore.... We've stopped creating and taking chances...

We made the ipod at the turn of the millenium, super.... It's a revolutionary product, it changed the way the music industry thinks (another outdated business model) and changes the marketplace for the better. It basically killed the 7 record deal... Now a lot of indie bands (with tonnes of creativity) have been able to make a living with their music again...

I think a lot of these lightweights that answer every post with "Disney has shareholders to appease, and that's the way it should be" need to read it and weep..... We can't run businesses like that anymore, that's what got us into trouble in the first place, it doesn't work.

With all due respect. Spare me your speech on saving business in North America.
Just because 1 person gushes on you doesn't mean the rest of us want you up on your soapbox. :hurl:

You say "there's no way the AC was losing money" Really? OK. I guess you must know.

The AC has a fanatical following with a very, very small base. If it was universally popular with the masses, it wouldn't have been shut....... Period.

You don't hear Disney talking about closing Pirates of the Caribbean, The Tower of Terror or Peter Pan. Do you?
That's because the uproar would be massive. Not a small collection of internet fanboys crying.

The Adventurer's Club IS a uniquely Disney creation, but it didn't work as it was. A Dinner theatre or restaurant concept would be fantastic......and force people to open their wallets for the experience. Both the AC fanboys and us "lightweight" shareholders would win.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

With all due respect. Spare me your speech on saving business in North America.
Just because 1 person gushes on you doesn't mean the rest of us want you up on your soapbox. :hurl:

You're right, your voice so much better than another anonymous poster on the internet.

You say "there's no way the AC was losing money" Really? OK. I guess you must know.

Then I guess you must know it wasn't. I look forward to your scanned copy of the accountaineers books.

The AC has a fanatical following with a very, very small base. If it was universally popular with the masses, it wouldn't have been shut....... Period.

Because all business decisions are that black and white, right?

Even if your assumption and vague point about "very, very small fan base" is true. Just how small is "small"? Could it be that "small" was enough to make a profit anyway? I'm sure out of the millions of people who visit WDW only a "small" number do things like Pairasailing, surfing lessons, horseback riding etc. but they are still offered.

This is why I typically stay away from AC discussions. You mostly have sides that act like they know everything and have nothing to show for it besides assumptions based on opinions and then you have the more logical voices made by insiders who just get ignored because they didn't post as often as someone else.

I'm far more inclined to believe that Disney shut down AC because they thought it could get more $ from 3 party companies than it closing because it wasn't popular or a money maker. If it wasn't, it would have been shut down 15 years ago, not 19 years after opening. And I doubt there was just 1 reason for it going, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the biggest factor and that Disney felt that PI was an all or nothing closure as a result of them not wanting to make AC a separate ticket place.

As for AC itself, others have done a great job explaining why it was so good so I won't bother, but I'll just sum up by saying that DTD is not worth goign to anymoe for me. Not just because of AC, but because Virgin's gone and all other store merch can be found elsewhere on property and that I have malls closer to my hosue that are better than DTD now (one even has Rainforest Cafe). As much as I like Lego and Gerhadilli, it's not worth taking the bus there and wasting my vacation time at.

 

[sittle]

With all due respect. Spare me your speech on saving business in North America.
Just because 1 person gushes on you doesn't mean the rest of us want you up on your soapbox.

Sometime people don't like the truth... I'm not impressed that one person gushed, I am impressed that one person recognizes the root of the problem with business in the North American market place...

It sounds like your more upset being alightweight shareholder more so then about anything else posted... Sorry to ofend you, if you wanna be a shareholder go ahead an enjoy the ride, just start betting on a winning horse instead of telling the jockey how to do his job..

Read my original post, GM, Chrysler are just the examples of putting money infront of innovations.. There are many others out there that run their businesses the same sort of way... They just move the money around from one division to the next... If your a shareholder participating in this sort of tomfoolery, then part of the problem not the solution. Let the creative people do their job and the shareholders will make money...

You say "there's no way the AC was losing money" Really? OK. I guess you must know.

The whole area was in the red, as discussed previously in the post, but obviously some of the clubs (most likely C.W, A.C) were definately raising the bell curve...

I'm not saying AC should stay where it is and not tinker with it... In fact in my first post on the thread, I stated that it should be moved or receive more support in way of better attractions/clubs/experiences around it... Dinner club would be a great idea...

As you probably have overheard at the shareholder meetings, Disney is looking for 4d attractions, places where guests can interact and become immersed with their experience/ride... AC was a direct embodiment of this concept and was way ahead of the curve years ago, and they aren't duplicating it, they are moving it elsewhere.... This isn't really innovative as much as it is taking a step sideways...

 

[AndrewRnR]

The whole area was in the red, as discussed previously in the post, but obviously some of the clubs (most likely C.W, A.C) were definately raising the bell curve...

Interesting. I always heard and even read on this very site that it was the other way around - CW/AC were losing the big money when the other clubs were around the break even point. That makes sense considering the clubs have one DJ while the AC has what one musician, a few techs, and 7ish EQUITY pay actors.

Was the AC a great thing produced by WDI? Absolutely. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't. It just didn't appeal to the masses. I certainly was turned away when I went in the first time and a bunch of the fanboys ruined all the jokes and improves by saying the punchlines. The place was empty nearly all the time. I always tell the story a few summers ago when I used to live in Orlando my friend and I went to AC on a Saturday night and around 10pm the place maybe had 20-30 people in it.

 

[Lee]

Interesting. I always heard and even read on this very site that it was the other way around - CW/AC were losing the big money when the other clubs were around the break even point.

Nope. We've been over this a zillion times in the last year. AC was holding it's own quite well.

The PI concept in general was on the decline, and rather than keep one or two well performing clubs, they closed them all. Baby out with the bathwater.

Properly marketed, with appropriate cover charges....AC would have thrived as it did for all of the 90s, up until the changes to the island's access and pricing structure.

Wow....haven't we traveled this road before?

Oh...I gotta keep up my mantra: Show trumps Efficiency.

 

[worldfanatic]

Interesting. I always heard and even read on this very site that it was the other way around - CW/AC were losing the big money when the other clubs were around the break even point. That makes sense considering the clubs have one DJ while the AC has what one musician, a few techs, and 7ish EQUITY pay actors.

Was the AC a great thing produced by WDI? Absolutely. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't. It just didn't appeal to the masses. I certainly was turned away when I went in the first time and a bunch of the fanboys ruined all the jokes and improves by saying the punchlines. The place was empty nearly all the time. I always tell the story a few summers ago when I used to live in Orlando my friend and I went to AC on a Saturday night and around 10pm the place maybe had 20-30 people in it.

Now, for me, that's a solid post. Love the fanboy comment!
Anybody can claim the AC was making or not making money.
Intelligent posts give reasons why it may or may not have.
How on earth was the AC making more money than the other clubs?
Higher costs, fewer drinks sold. Doesn't equate.
The comeback will be "Noooooo, but it was always busy!"

Sorry, nope. Too many people with stories of it being a dead zone. And with those few around not drinking.

 

[tirian]

Nope. We've been over this a zillion times in the last year. AC was holding it's own quite well.

The PI concept in general was on the decline, and rather than keep one or two well performing clubs, they closed them all. Baby out with the bathwater.

Properly marketed, with appropriate cover charges....AC would have thrived as it did for all of the 90s, up until the changes to the island's access and pricing structure.

Wow....haven't we traveled this road before?

Oh...I gotta keep up my mantra: Show trumps Efficiency.

Many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.

:brick:

From an attendance perspective: AC was holding its own, and the CW was actually performing decently. That was it. The dance clubs were usually empty except for Thursday (Cast) nights and Gay Days.

Financially: My dept. was told that PI hadn't turned a profit in a few years; no distinction was made among the different clubs. APs and CMs frequented the AC and CW.

Long ago, PI was on the cutting edge of nighttime entertainment; but when Disney refused to invest in its infrastructure and realized they couldn't compete with today's club scene without losing their family image, they gave up. Instead of doing something innovative with PI, Disney simply threw in the towel.

FWIW, fans like to complain that Disney ruined PI by removing the turnstiles, but those were removed BECAUSE nobody was on the Island! :hammer:

 

[Lee]

Now, for me, that's a solid post. Love the fanboy comment!
Anybody can claim the AC was making or not making money.
Intelligent posts give reasons why it may or may not have.
How on earth was the AC making more money than the other clubs?
Higher costs, fewer drinks sold. Doesn't equate.
The comeback will be "Noooooo, but it was always busy!"

Sorry, nope. Too many people with stories of it being a dead zone. And with those few around not drinking.

Sigh...again we've hashed this out again and again in other threads.
Losing the AC was like losing a good friend to me. As soon as the news started to come down last year, I contacted multiple sources at TDO to try to find out the real story and what could be done about it.
What I was told multiple times was that the closure of AC was not due to it not making money. It was doing fine, meeting it's expectations in that area. Was it a goldmine? No.
But it was seen as a true Disney gem, beloved by many, that was a valuable piece of the "magic" of DTD.
The business model of PI was not working. All the dance clubs saw declining attendance. The decision was made to get rid of the clubs in order to bring in more profitable businesses, many of them third-party.
The AC fell victim to that way of thinking. Money over show.

As I have said before, how long before more little pieces of the magic are removed in order to make more money?
Not much return on fireworks. The Water Pagent makes no money at all, but costs to run. Etc.
I will never be in favor of cutting "magic" to save or make more money. That ain't Disney. It's a failure of the Keys. Unexcusable.

(Oh, and put me in the camp that never saw the Club when it wasn't doing very brisk business. Often shoulder to shoulder, especially after 9pm or so.)

...but when Disney refused to invest in its infrastructure and realized they couldn't compete with today's club scene without losing their family image, they gave up.Instead of doing something innovative with PI, Disney simply threw in the towel.

Yep. That was their ultimate failure.

 

[AndrewRnR]

(Oh, and put me in the camp that never saw the Club when it wasn't doing very brisk business. Often shoulder to shoulder, especially after 9pm or so.)

Lee we can both agree that whenever it was shoulder to shoulder very few (if any!) people paid to get in.

And I'm sorry Lee but I take what ImaYoyo says over your info... he has always been dead on in regards to DTD so I'll take his word for it. He touched on the club's profit back when last year:

Don't lie to me. If you knew about Downtown Disney finances, then you would know me. And I certainly don't know you. Can you even tell me who is the GM of finance for Region 1 entertainment? How about the DTD finance manager since he covers F&B locations (such as Ad Club). Can you really look at his numbers and tell me that it is pulling in "profits"?!? I know CPAs are supposed to be good at fudging numbers, but no one is THAT good... Actually now that I think about it he's not a CPA, but that doesn't change the fact that the lease from a third party will bring in a positive cash flow, unlike the negative cash flow that currently exists.

I think no one is arguing the club was crap or what not it just did not appeal to the masses like a Tower of Terror or Splash Mtn does. Sure Disney takes a bath money wise for parades or the water pageant but the masses enjoy it and more importantly it is available to the masses. It's not restricted to a certain age group, you don't need to buy a separate ticket for it, and its family friendly.

 

[Lee]

And I'm sorry Lee but I take what ImaYoyo says over your info... .

Agreed. He is right there, and has info likely better and more detailed that what I was able to get. Most of my info boiled down to the Club doing what was expected of it. It was never seen as a huge money maker, and didn't have to be. It added to the DTD experience.

I think no one is arguing the club was crap or what not it just did not appeal to the masses like a Tower of Terror or Splash Mtn does. Sure Disney takes a bath money wise for parades or the water pageant but the masses enjoy it and more importantly it is available to the masses. It's not restricted to a certain age group, you don't need to buy a separate ticket for it, and its family friendly.

Agreed with all but the last bit. Good is good. Disney quality is Disney quality, no matter if it's a club or a playground. As an adult with no kids, I would like to think that the company would be interested in giving my demographic something worth doing at night after the parks close. (Wandering around World of Disney doesn't count.)

Bottom line: Nothing of Disney quality, or containing a proper amount of "magic" should ever be cut for financial reasons. That's the reason "Show" was placed above "Efficiency" in the Keys to begin with.

 

[sittle]

Lee we can both agree that whenever it was shoulder to shoulder very few (if any!) people paid to get in.

Clubs make money slinging drinks, selling food... not charging a 5 dollar cover charge...

Again, the argument isn't about profitability, it's about the experience, Andrew...

Disney is working overtime to make immersive 4D attractions/experiences... They have one already in AC... It needs to be relocated or supported with other good experiences... Not just Dance clubs... TSM and Mi.LF are two attractions that they've just recently developed that are 4D and immersive....

Not everyone will ride TSM or Mi.LF they appeal to different segments of the markets, just like not everyone will ride TOT or Splash Mt. They (TSM and Mi.LF) don't draw huge crowd draws with rabid fanbases, but people appreciatate them and enjoy them just the same.

Would people attend the DHS to ride TSM if TOT and RNR weren't there...?.... doubtful...

Keep in mind the masses cannot all ride the TOT, this is a big ticket thrill rides with height & health restrictions... a family with a toddler can't use these attractions as easily as a family with a teenager.

AC is an experience that a family with a toddler can't use the same as the family with the teenager.

You can't build a themepark for the use of "everyone" because not everyone enjoys the same thing... You have to have diversity...

Furthermore, I think the disbelief and outcry is the reaction to the apparent side step Disney Parks is making with the AC. It's the experience that is interactive and could be more profitable in better surroundings at each Disney World (DL, DLP, TD and Hong Kong) themepark.... It seems to fly in the face of their main directive (4D) to remove the AC in Florida to Hong Kong... Why not start move it to a better area, (AKL or BW or the New and Improved PI) and get it working there then duplicate them elsewhere...