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[lazyboy97o]

I think you guys are both overstating the case. I don't think anyone (in meaningful numbers) actually does what Genie tells them to, nor do I think Disney expects them to.

Genie+ forces you to follow it by being built around next available, not future availability.

 

[MrPromey]

I just don't buy the argument (maybe you're making it, maybe you're not) that Disney's queue management system is to blame. I think Disney Parks fans being insane is to blame. Whether it was FP, FP+, Genie+, or Standby only, people are so obsessed with the next new thing that I don't think we'd see wait times meaningfully improved with a "better" system.

I edited a little before you replied which might have made my point a little clearer but no, I don't think their queue management system is entirely to blame although I do think of it as being one ingredient in the soup.

But if Disney park fans being insane is completely to blame, at which point in history did they lose their minds?

Pre-fastpass of any sort, the E-tickets all had big waits much of the time but most of the other stuff, usually didn't.

I don't remember there being much change there with paper fastpasses.

With FP+, suddenly almost everything had a fastpass queue including low-capacity attractions that frankly, have always seemed to struggle to handle that along with a standby line.

But I'm not saying that alone is why - obviously, attendance went up in that same period, too.

I think the payment plan for FL resident APs rolling out had an impact, also.

To me it feels like a combination of lack of capacity expansion over decades, a queue management system and now a reservation system that attempts to make all things busy at all times AND the rise of internet influences helping turn "FoMO" into a real problem in society rather than just something a few people take medication to handle...

I mean, there was a time when I'm sure they could have made an episode of My Strange Addiction to document some of the fandom as it exists today but now, it's like that's perfectly normal.

I think all of it has fed into everything else and created a gordian knot of sorts.

It's a problem I don't know that Disney can find their way out of but it's one I feel strongly they could have avoided in the first place if they'd done things differently.

But that's from the guest perspective and maybe from the vantage point of an on-the-ground castmember. I'm still not convinced it's perceived as much of a problem for centralized management as long as they can keep raising margins.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Genie+ forces you to follow it by being built around next available, not future availability.

It doesn't tell you which attraction to pick.

Next available Splash Mountain is at 4pm and I'm in Tomorrowland at noon? Cool, I'll take the 1:00 Buzz.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I just don't buy the argument (maybe you're making it, maybe you're not) that Disney's queue management system is to blame. I think Disney Parks fans being insane is to blame. Whether it was FP, FP+, Genie+, or Standby only, people are so obsessed with the next new thing that I don't think we'd see wait times meaningfully improved with a "better" system.

If you worked out the math for the park design model you’d see that there is fundamentally not enough capacity.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

But if Disney park fans being insane is completely to blame, at which point in history did they lose their minds?

May 28, 2014 is when it got bad.

If you worked out the math for the park design model you’d see that there is fundamentally not enough capacity.

That was the logic that led to New Fantasyland. But the way it's played out is that for every X increase in capacity, there is a >X increase in demand. New stuff doesn't alleviate crowding, it makes crowding worse.

 

[MrPromey]

May 28, 2014 is when it got bad.

For what it's worth, that seemed like a pretty good day to be in Animal Kingdom by today's standards.

 

[MrPromey]

That was the logic that led to New Fantasyland. But the way it's played out is that for every X increase in capacity, there is a >X increase in demand. New stuff doesn't alleviate crowding, it makes crowding worse.

What makes things worse is new stuff they market the hell out of.

I remember seeing the commercial for 7DMT playing ZZ-top non-stop and those stupid gifs of the dwarfs in sunglasses followed me everywhere online.

As I've mentioned before, they had a Super Bowl commercial for Toy Story Land and that amounted to a b-c ticket and c-d ticket attached to a newly facing entrance for pre-existing Midway Mania.

They've been notoriously bad about over-hyping the minimal additions they've made over the last twenty or so years.

Obviously, something like Star Wars Land was going to bring people out of the woodwork and then all those people got there to find two attractions they couldn't get on and a bunch of retail up-sell and then a park that otherwise doesn't have enough to do to offset the crowds brought in by that insanely popular IP and the land that did not live up to the hype.

The Star Wars example is kind of what you're talking about but at DL, where they put it in a park that already offers more to do in a single day than any other domestic Disney park, seems to have handled the volume of people much better.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

What makes things worse is new stuff they market the hell out of.

I remember seeing the commercial for 7DMT playing ZZ-top non-stop and those stupid gifs of the dwarfs in sunglasses followed me everywhere online.

As I've mentioned before, they had a Super Bowl commercial for Toy Story Land and that amounted to a b-c ticket and c-d ticket attached to a newly facing entrance for pre-existing Midway Mania.

I mean. Marketing gonna market.

 

[MrPromey]

I mean. Marketing gonna market.

No doubt but these are the people that made a special drink to "celebrate" the purple wall.

The degree to which they've been willing to hype things, some of which should not have been hyped that much and some of which, should have just quietly opened and/or continued to exist with no hype at all annoys me to no end because your argument - that building more stuff brings more crowds - is essentially impossible to prove one way or the other when they make a big deal out of absolutely everything.

And their desire to do so casts strong doubt that they have any concern at all for capacity beyond what becomes a safety hazard.

BTW, I can't wait to see the marketing blitz for the Moana walk-through.

 

[UNCgolf]

That was the logic that led to New Fantasyland. But the way it's played out is that for every X increase in capacity, there is a >X increase in demand. New stuff doesn't alleviate crowding, it makes crowding worse.

This is a claim that gets repeated here but I've never seen any solid supporting evidence.

If you look at the numbers, it appears that demand increases steadily regardless if new attractions are opened, so it would be even worse if they didn't keep adding new attractions.

I think Disney has realized this which is why they've gone on a relative building spree. That also supports the idea that building attractions helps to some extent or Disney wouldn't have wasted the money to do it -- they certainly didn't need to add a bunch of attractions to keep attendance growing.

 

[Jrb1979]

May 28, 2014 is when it got bad.


That was the logic that led to New Fantasyland. But the way it's played out is that for every X increase in capacity, there is a >X increase in demand. New stuff doesn't alleviate crowding, it makes crowding worse.

It's why they need to follow regional parks playbook of how to market new attractions.

For example my local park, when they added the tallest Dive Coaster they marketed the hell out of it. It's was in all news media across the country. This year they are adding a new kid coaster and a new flat ride and have had barely any marketing for it.

Not every attraction needs to be the next big thing. Especially for DHS, Epcot and AK. They need more Cars type attractions and less Tower of Terror. They don't need to draw more people, they need more for those guests they have to do.

 

[Disone]

I still don't get how what you're describing is "hybrid".

Your third bucket is literally how any hourly job I've ever worked in my life goes. All of my raises, hourly or salary have been merit-based.

I realize that a big chunk of hourly cast at Disney are union but most hourly employees in Florida are not.

What you're describing is not a hybrid position. It's literally life as an hourly employee for any non-union employee.

Maybe Disney calls it hybrid internally but nobody outside Disney would.

Maybe that's where the confusion is here - because non-union hourly employees at Disney are less common but are by far the norm everywhere else around here.

Disney welcomed in the unions when they first set up shop in Florida which was and still is unusual in this state - I bet they've been regretting that move for quite a few years, now.

Good questions: (and I could really rock the boat here by telling you that there are some salary positions that actually do get overtime, That is an entirely different conversation.)

Back to O&T.... There is a major difference between non-union, hourly and Office and technical.

Non-union hourly is an hourly position where the person has opted not to join the union. Office and technical does not have union. It is not an option to join the union.

If you're an attractions host, you can be union or you can be non-union. Your choice but Either way, your hourly rate will be mandated by the union contract. All attractions hosts at x attraction with the same amount of seniority will be paid the same rate regardless of their union affiliation.

For office and technical positions, like secretaries, guest relations, schedulers there hourly rate is not covered by the union and they do not have the option to join the union.

In the office and technical field, all the secretaries with the same amount of years with the company do not get paid the same amount of money. They're paid depends on their merit raises. And and those vary by individual performance.

In short, Your attractions host at the Magic Kingdom May or may not be part of the union and they are all paid the same rate, based on years of service of course.

However, your VIP tour guide is definitely not part of a union. It's not an option for them and every single VIP tour guide is paid a different rate. It is based on their individual performance.

One final difference between the two, your attractions host is protected by the union Regardless of whether or not they are affiliated with the union. The non-union cast member cannot simply be fired .

However, the office and technical person has no union representation and the company can separate at will.

 

[GhostHost1000]

It doesn't tell you which attraction to pick.

Next available Splash Mountain is at 4pm and I'm in Tomorrowland at noon? Cool, I'll take the 1:00 Buzz.

bingo

which is why I liked it better when we could at least somewhat plan which areas we would be in during certain times of day and then be able to select our fp attractions accordingly ahead of time

the popular attractions are going to be without fp's or LL's regardless of what you call them, which app you use, or when you book them

 

[lazyboy97o]

That was the logic that led to New Fantasyland. But the way it's played out is that for every X increase in capacity, there is a >X increase in demand. New stuff doesn't alleviate crowding, it makes crowding worse.

New Fantasyland was never going to push the park up to adequate capacity. There was still going to be a deficit even if visitation was flat. It also didn’t address other areas of capacity. Even with adding Be Our Guest and Skipper Canteen, the Magic Kingdom still has less dining capacity today than 30 years ago. A couple of rides, restaurant and small shop was never close to enough to make up the gap.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

New Fantasyland was never going to push the park up to adequate capacity. There was still going to be a deficit even if visitation was flat. It also didn’t address other areas of capacity. Even with adding Be Our Guest and Skipper Canteen, the Magic Kingdom still has less dining capacity today than 30 years ago. A couple of rides, restaurant and small shop was never close to enough to make up the gap.

Magic Kingdom's primary issue isn't "stuff to do" or even "stuff to eat," it's "square footage to move your body freely."

 

[lazyboy97o]

Magic Kingdom's primary issue isn't "stuff to do" or even "stuff to eat," it's "square footage to move your body freely."

Giving people stuff to do provides square footage. Not pushing people into virtual queue systems also frees up space.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Not pushing people into virtual queue systems also frees up space.

Amen, sister.

If people are dumb enough to snake themselves through 3 hours of switchbacks for Rise of the Resistance, for the love of God, let them.

 

[LSLS]

This is a claim that gets repeated here but I've never seen any solid supporting evidence.

If you look at the numbers, it appears that demand increases steadily regardless if new attractions are opened, so it would be even worse if they didn't keep adding new attractions.

I think Disney has realized this which is why they've gone on a relative building spree. That also supports the idea that building attractions helps to some extent or Disney wouldn't have wasted the money to do it -- they certainly didn't need to add a bunch of attractions to keep attendance growing.

Just to give an idea, here is the data from 2011-2019. Infer what you will about how additions have affected total attendance at the parks individually and combined.

 

[UNCgolf]

Just to give an idea, here is the data from 2011-2019. Infer what you will about how additions have affected total attendance at the parks individually and combined.
View attachment 685359

I almost mentioned Animal Kingdom in my original post because I think Pandora is the one time it actually did lead to a significant increase, which is understandable considering Animal Kingdom had the least to do of any park, especially for people who didn't care about the animals. Magic Kingdom saw a decent jump as well, but smaller than Animal Kingdom in relative terms.

Thing is, I don't think any of those increases, including the AK jump, was enough to outweigh the capacity additions. Those would only correspond to 3-4 thousand extra visitors per day, and the capacity increases were generally enough to handle that many guests (if not more) in an hour because they weren't simply a new attraction but multiple new attractions along with dining and shopping.

The addition of TRON to MK will be different since it's solely an attraction, and, more importantly, will be VQ only. It's impossible for that to make MK crowding better; it can only make it worse.

 

[LSLS]

I almost mentioned Animal Kingdom in my original post because I think Pandora is the one time it actually did lead to a significant increase, which is understandable considering Animal Kingdom had the least to do of any park, especially for people who didn't care about the animals. Magic Kingdom saw a decent jump as well, but smaller than Animal Kingdom in relative terms.

Thing is, I don't think any of those increases, including the AK jump, was enough to outweigh the capacity additions. Those would only correspond to a couple thousand extra visitors per day, and the capacity increases were generally enough to handle that many guests (if not more) in an hour.

True. I did find it interesting how mute the jump is when you add in the other parks.

But to your point, lets say FOP gets 500 guests an hour, and Na'vi gets 1,000 (I'm sure they can do more, but just on average). Then lets assume the parks are open on average 8 hours a day (10-6). Now, we assume on average, they are down 2 hours a day. Let me state here, I feel I'm being ULTRA conservative on my throughput and hours open, and probably on my downtime as well. That is still over 3 million people combined for a year. That is roughly double the increase in attendance at the park, which saw an increase of 4,500 people per day from 2016-2017. Or, if you count it's first full year open, it's still roughly 300k more than the increase in attendance from 2016-2018 (I think I'm making sense?).