dstrawn9889
Well-Known Member
will someone PLEASE change the title of this thread?
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Boat ride might not be happening after all
- Thread starter Captain Neo
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RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
I think Seven Dwarfs Mine Train is a great ride with great theming. The thing that knocks it down to a D for me is that there needs to be either more time in show scenes or more time as a coaster (or both). It's incomplete in both areas. What's there is very good, there just needs to be more of it. I think 30-45 seconds more of show scenes or coaster track and it's a very solid E-ticket.This E ticket thing is so unfair. I know that the *experts* have stated otherwise, but I regard 7DMT as an E ticket.
7DMT is detailed to the max, everything from the exquisite woodwork - the craftsmanship - the waterfall - the unique swaying cars - the dark ride portion with glowing gems - the singing animatronics, the final cottage scene and of course the amazing interactive queue -- all of it is E ticket quality. And, the length of 7DMT is 2 1/2 minutes the same duration as Space Mountain.
I would have liked to see an additional level for the dark ride portion but it's not enough for me to downgrade the entire experience.
James Cameron is a mad perfectionist and Joe Rohde is exceptionally gifted. Under Cameron's leadership, Disney Imagineers are finally free to create and innovate since they are not held bound to Disney's penny pinching restrictions and other limitations, that would otherwise be imposed upon them. This is part of why I am so excited about Avatarland.
Flight of Passage will be an E ticket.
Marlins1
Well-Known Member
I think this is the best description of 7DMT that I have read.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
7DMT is what i'd say is approximately one fourth or one fifth of a solid E ticket. It has fragments of an E, but the full qualifications of being an E elude it. Too many cut corners and value engineering. The mine scene is great, very much Disney quality and what I expect from them. This scene would be (and technically is) right at home among their best. But there's too little of it and the rest of the ride feels very inferior by comparison, leaving me wanting more. As compared to other E tickets like Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain or any of the Future World classics- mine train's show scene is up to par with those, but they're so much longer and with a greater amount of Disney caliber scenes.
I do agree with RSoxNo1. I would personally prefer the extra time being more show scenes if given the choice (this is a coaster intended to be less thrilling than Big Thunder after all so the lack of thrill is entirely fine if your focus is on the scenes). Though the original pre-cut layout would have covered both aspects, extra coaster and several additional show scenes. The coaster part was intended to be marginally longer (not really more thrilling, but the track layout was more complex with a bit more length), but there were also two additional interior show scenes. Even the main Mine scene appears to have had more substance (the track weaves through the area more and might even have intersected at different elevations). The "devolving" track layout again for reference (I don't know who made this, but I recall Martin posting it on multiple occasions)-
The concept art also has hints of additional exterior detail. A stream connected Mine Train to the Beast's Castle waterway on the left side. On the right side there's a "home from work" scene cut in the final version (an iconic scene from the film that should have made the cut), showcasing a fallen tree the dwarfs use as a bridge. Again another creek traveling under (another piece of art even has the coaster itself traveling along the tree). While the artist obviously took liberties with the layout, the track appears closer to the green layout above in the way it weaves through the extra mine scenes.
There is actually a rocky trench in the final product that weaves around the front of the cottage, but they didn't bother installing water and it's entirely dry. Sucks...
Another issue with the ride is at night. Disney usually still nails night time lighting for facades (the rest of New Fantasyland is pretty after dark). I often prefer the parks and rides at night (Big Thunder and Splash are a joy to ride in the dark) and look forward to Animal Kingdom after dark. They dropped the ball with 7DMT. And they had such a brilliant opportunity to scatter sparkling gemstones around the surface to give it a unique and striking night presence (the concept art again alludes to this if you look closely so I have to believe this was the plan at one point). Also, that hideously blinding camera flash as you're going down the drop also ruins the view (I detest that). I do like the views seen of the rest of Fantasyland while riding it (except for that atrocious camera flash), but the ride's own scenery itself is poorly lit at night. Such a wasted opportunity, for a location where "a million diamonds shine".
At least it's fully expected Pandora will be gorgeous at night...
I do agree with RSoxNo1. I would personally prefer the extra time being more show scenes if given the choice (this is a coaster intended to be less thrilling than Big Thunder after all so the lack of thrill is entirely fine if your focus is on the scenes). Though the original pre-cut layout would have covered both aspects, extra coaster and several additional show scenes. The coaster part was intended to be marginally longer (not really more thrilling, but the track layout was more complex with a bit more length), but there were also two additional interior show scenes. Even the main Mine scene appears to have had more substance (the track weaves through the area more and might even have intersected at different elevations). The "devolving" track layout again for reference (I don't know who made this, but I recall Martin posting it on multiple occasions)-
The concept art also has hints of additional exterior detail. A stream connected Mine Train to the Beast's Castle waterway on the left side. On the right side there's a "home from work" scene cut in the final version (an iconic scene from the film that should have made the cut), showcasing a fallen tree the dwarfs use as a bridge. Again another creek traveling under (another piece of art even has the coaster itself traveling along the tree). While the artist obviously took liberties with the layout, the track appears closer to the green layout above in the way it weaves through the extra mine scenes.
There is actually a rocky trench in the final product that weaves around the front of the cottage, but they didn't bother installing water and it's entirely dry. Sucks...
Another issue with the ride is at night. Disney usually still nails night time lighting for facades (the rest of New Fantasyland is pretty after dark). I often prefer the parks and rides at night (Big Thunder and Splash are a joy to ride in the dark) and look forward to Animal Kingdom after dark. They dropped the ball with 7DMT. And they had such a brilliant opportunity to scatter sparkling gemstones around the surface to give it a unique and striking night presence (the concept art again alludes to this if you look closely so I have to believe this was the plan at one point). Also, that hideously blinding camera flash as you're going down the drop also ruins the view (I detest that). I do like the views seen of the rest of Fantasyland while riding it (except for that atrocious camera flash), but the ride's own scenery itself is poorly lit at night. Such a wasted opportunity, for a location where "a million diamonds shine".
At least it's fully expected Pandora will be gorgeous at night...
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I *love* The Land just as much Soarin' -- maybe more, lol. The Land is one of my favorite rides in all of WDW. So, I know I'm going to adore the Pandora boat ride.
Very well said. The boat ride can go either way for me. If it's tranquil like The Land, that's fine or if it's like Splash Mountain that's awesome too.
I agree with you, but this is a coaster intended for children. The Goofy coaster is only one minute long.
Yes, but all of the rides mentioned above are either in Adventureland or Frontierland. 7DMT is in Fantasyland, which caters to children. This coaster was designed with children in mind, so 2 - 3 minutes for a kiddie coaster is good enough for little kids and even some adults. It's the same duration as Space Mountain, you are not the intended audience.
ETA: I totally agree with you that Pandora will be gorgeous at night! I can't wait for this boat ride.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
"Adults are interested if you don't play down to the little 2 or 3 year olds or talk down. I don't believe in talking down to children. I don't believe in talking down to any certain segment. I like to kind of just talk in a general way to the audience. Children are always reaching."
"We believed in our idea - a family park where parents and children could have fun- together."
"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."
-Walt Disney
There's not supposed to inherently be an "intended audience" at Disney, the intended audience is everyone. The original intent was to set out to create entertainment that has ageless and genderless appeal. We may in fact recall as children many of us wanted to be adults and practiced acting out adult scenarios in the form of pretend play. We liked our barbies and action figures sure, but many other times we made believe being doctors, astronauts, police officers, scientists, engineers mothers, fathers etc. Yet as adults we often recall fondly of our memories as children. It's nostalgia, and one of the reasons even adults can enjoy Disney at least as much as kids.
Disney were once so good at striking a balance between kids and adults so that no one was left out. Even as an adult male, I still enjoy animated movies like Snow White or Toy Story (Beauty and the Beast in particular is among my favorite films ever). I also grew up with the likes of Mary Poppins, Bedknobs and Broomsticks and Swiss Family Robinson (always loved them and never grew out of them, they have appeal completely independent of gender or age).
When I was a child under 5 years old in the early 90's, I enjoyed Pirates of the Caribbean, Splash Mountain etc (all the EPCOT classics) much more than other rides some would probably describe as "more suitable" for the age I was at the time. Though there were more "happy" and "whimsical" classics such as Small World and the original version of Imagination that some people might try to argue are "kids rides". Far from it though. The quality, detail and length are at such a high level and made with such heartfelt charm that they never feel like they're limited to children. It's quite apparent why something is just a better ride even to children (not talking thrill level here). Children have a sense of quality just as adults do.
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mergatroid
Well-Known Member
So is it established the OP got his panties in a twist over nothing, or not 
"Adults are interested if you don't play down to the little 2 or 3 year olds or talk down. I don't believe in talking down to children. I don't believe in talking down to any certain segment. I like to kind of just talk in a general way to the audience. Children are always reaching."
"We believed in our idea - a family park where parents and children could have fun- together."
"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."
-Walt Disney
There's not supposed to inherently be an "intended audience" at Disney, the intended audience is everyone. The original intent was to set out to create entertainment that has ageless and genderless appeal. We may in fact recall as children many of us wanted to be adults and practiced acting out adult scenarios in the form of pretend play. We liked our barbies and action figures sure, but many other times we made believe being doctors, astronauts, police officers, scientists, engineers mothers, fathers etc. Yet as adults we often recall fondly of our memories as children. It's nostalgia, and one of the reasons even adults can enjoy Disney at least as much as kids.
Disney were once so good at striking a balance between kids and adults so that no one was left out. Even as an adult male, I still enjoy animated movies like Snow White or Toy Story (Beauty and the Beast in particular is among my favorite films ever). I also grew up with the likes of Mary Poppins, Bedknobs and Broomsticks and Swiss Family Robinson (always loved them and never grew out of them, they have appeal completely independent of gender or age).
When I was a child under 5 years old in the early 90's, I enjoyed Pirates of the Caribbean, Splash Mountain etc (all the EPCOT classics) much more than other rides some would probably describe as "more suitable" for the age I was at the time. Though there were more "happy" and "whimsical" classics such as Small World and the original version of Imagination that some people might try to argue are "kids rides". Far from it though. The quality, detail and length are at such a high level and made with such heartfelt charm that they never feel like they're limited to children. It's quite apparent why something is just a better ride even to children (not talking thrill level here). Children have a sense of quality just as adults do.
I totally agree with Walt Disney, that children should never be spoken down to. I totally support the Montessori approach to learning and authoritative parenting. As a child, I went to Kennywood and I rode all of the big coasters at Cedar Point as soon as I was tall enough.
Perhaps, I should have said that 7DMT was designed with children in mind, as opposed to some of the other E ticket attractions you mentioned.
It's important to consider the context of Fantasyland, where the attractions tend to cater more toward children. Of course, everyone can enjoy them but they're still more kiddie than the other lands.
And, while I tend to agree that there could have been an additional scene -- I also believe that if there was an additional scene that the same "fans" would complain that there should have been an additional scene to the additional scene, etc. They will *never* be satisfied, and I totally feel bad for them that they spend all that time and money at Disney and can't enjoy themselves fully -- only to return again and again -- it sounds like torture.
I *love* 7DMT and for me it is the best attraction in Fantasyland -- music, coaster, and dark ride.
As an aside, this snippet is from the LA Times and it specifically states that the Pandora boat ride will be a D ticket and the flight simulator ride will be an E Ticket attaction. The details sound amazing!!!
"The alien land's marquee attraction will be an E-Ticket banshee flight simulator similar to Soarin' at Epcot and Soarin' Over California at Disney California Adventure. Disney Imagineer Joe Rohde, who is spearheading the project, says the new ride system will be "considerably more thrilling" than the original Soarin'.
A D-Ticket indoor boat ride similar to Pirates of the Caribbean will take riders on a river journey through the illuminated forest of Pandora.
A new nighttime spectacular featuring music, performers and water screen projections will take place on Discovery River, similar to World of Color at Disney California Adventure. For the new show, Disney is reportedly teaming up with Cirque du Soleil and WET, the design firm responsible for the Bellagio fountains in Las Vegas.
After dark, lighting effects will play a prominent role in Avatar Land, with LED-lighted sidewalks and illuminated plants that respond to the touch. The man-made Tree of Life, the centerpiece of the park, is expected to undergo a major makeover that will incorporate lighting effects into every branch and leaf.
By day, the futuristic Avatar Land will be populated by lush jungle foliage, floating mountains and the ruins of a military base camp sprinkled with audio-animatronics, 3-D projections and hologram effects. An area themed as the Pandora landing station mess hall could serve as a quick-service restaurant."
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
My standards are able to be met, I really don't believe it's impossible to satisfy most Disney fans. Cars Land was highly praised by diehard Disney fanboys, and i'm quite impressed with Mystic Manor. And even over two decades later, i'm still in awe of Splash Mountain, and disregarding the big drop the ride has an appeal to children identical to that of 7DMT. There's simply far more of those scenes and they're done on a much grander scale. The ride would still be an E ticket and still come out well above 7DMT in quality even without the big drop. The original Journey into Imagination never had thrills and was an exquisite E ticket with a similar appeal to children as 7DMT. Again it was lengthy and had tons of quality show scenes.
Disneyland and Disney World were both conceptualized so that everyone of any age, gender etc would love them. Even when Disneyland opened, some of the Fantasyland properties were already "old" to parents of the time. Doubly so when Disney World opened. Fantasyland was never specific to children originally, 20k Leagues and Matterhorn prove that. Snow White is over 75 years old now (and has immense appeal outside of children), so it's definitely not reasonable to exclude adults and even seniors in the target audience. I've actually seen more adults ride and enjoy 7DMT than kids.
I don't believe the concept of 7DMT was a poor one at all. It's actually a very good idea with a wide range of appeal to all genders and age groups (adults might even get more out of it than kids, there's definitely more nostalgia involved for older audiences). Had it been built in the early 90's or prior, I do believe it would have been immensely better, probably a fantastic E ticket with tons of family appeal. The problem again is the execution, the budget cuts really hurt it. They nailed the mine scene, they dropped the ball elsewhere. We saw what the original ride was intended to be like from the layouts Martin posted as well as concept art, those elements would not have changed the height limit or the intended audience (just made it better). The reason the ride didn't get additional scenes and better exterior details is purely because the budget for New Fantasyland was cut. It's as simple as that.
Disneyland and Disney World were both conceptualized so that everyone of any age, gender etc would love them. Even when Disneyland opened, some of the Fantasyland properties were already "old" to parents of the time. Doubly so when Disney World opened. Fantasyland was never specific to children originally, 20k Leagues and Matterhorn prove that. Snow White is over 75 years old now (and has immense appeal outside of children), so it's definitely not reasonable to exclude adults and even seniors in the target audience. I've actually seen more adults ride and enjoy 7DMT than kids.
I don't believe the concept of 7DMT was a poor one at all. It's actually a very good idea with a wide range of appeal to all genders and age groups (adults might even get more out of it than kids, there's definitely more nostalgia involved for older audiences). Had it been built in the early 90's or prior, I do believe it would have been immensely better, probably a fantastic E ticket with tons of family appeal. The problem again is the execution, the budget cuts really hurt it. They nailed the mine scene, they dropped the ball elsewhere. We saw what the original ride was intended to be like from the layouts Martin posted as well as concept art, those elements would not have changed the height limit or the intended audience (just made it better). The reason the ride didn't get additional scenes and better exterior details is purely because the budget for New Fantasyland was cut. It's as simple as that.
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Carsland isn't really the best example, because during construction fanboys heavily criticized and initially dismissed the concept of Carsland in favor of other Disney IP's.
You can't 'disregard' the huge drop in Splash Mountain for argument's sake. Splash Mountain's huge drop is the reason for the 40 inch height requirement.
7DMT is only 38 inches and while 2 inches may not seem like much to you -- it is a big deal for little kids who are excluded from riding the larger mountains - and rides like Soarin' and Test Track due to height. So now, these kids have their own little mountain to enjoy along with their loved ones.
Again, I am not excluding any group from enjoying Fantasyland, but rides like Goofy's Barnstormer, Dumbo, Enchanted Tales w/Belle, The Little Mermaid, Casey's Splash zone, Winnie the Pooh, IASW, Peter Pan and now 7DMT are all mild, non frightening ride experiences and very child friendly.I agree that the budget was cut for 7DMT and that part is unfortunate for all of us.
I get your point about Splash Mountain, as I love long rides like that, too. I hope that someday Disney World will build another attraction like it. I also want the Pandora boat ride to have a slide or a drop -- the steeper the better for me, lol.
You can't 'disregard' the huge drop in Splash Mountain for argument's sake. Splash Mountain's huge drop is the reason for the 40 inch height requirement.
7DMT is only 38 inches and while 2 inches may not seem like much to you -- it is a big deal for little kids who are excluded from riding the larger mountains - and rides like Soarin' and Test Track due to height. So now, these kids have their own little mountain to enjoy along with their loved ones.
Again, I am not excluding any group from enjoying Fantasyland, but rides like Goofy's Barnstormer, Dumbo, Enchanted Tales w/Belle, The Little Mermaid, Casey's Splash zone, Winnie the Pooh, IASW, Peter Pan and now 7DMT are all mild, non frightening ride experiences and very child friendly.I agree that the budget was cut for 7DMT and that part is unfortunate for all of us.
I get your point about Splash Mountain, as I love long rides like that, too. I hope that someday Disney World will build another attraction like it. I also want the Pandora boat ride to have a slide or a drop -- the steeper the better for me, lol.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
The reason I proposed to disregard Splash Mountain's big drop is because the ride would still be far superior to 7DMT without the drop (and its scenes comparably showcase a similar type of appeal). Thrills are in fact not a prerequisite for E ticket status, there are tons of awesome E's without any thrill (the original Journey into Imagination, Mystic Manor or Tokyo's Sinbad). I never expected 7DMT to be a major thrill ride, I don't think anyone did. But an absence of heavy thrills in a ride hyped as an E ticket does instill the expectation that creators shift their focus into other things instead, particularly greater quantities of show scenes for one thing. 7DMT has one extremely well done show scene, but it lacks the quantity expected from other E's.
Cars Land was criticized during construction for a variety of reasons. People were skeptical about the IP itself (the Cars movies have mixed reactions from Pixar fans) but they were also wary of those running the company. DCA itself had a somewhat meh or even negative opinion from many Disneyland fans since it was built. When the first announcement and conceptual plans for Cars Land released, they were fresh off of Disneyland's 50th restoration project (which was really just a return to competent maintenance again). No one was sure how they'd handle actual creative expansion of the resort. The finished product ended up impressing however and has come to be seen in a very positive light.
7DMT was criticized for somewhat different reasons, and in a somewhat different chronological order during its creation process. In actuality many people were fairly positive and open minded on 7DMT on when announced, especially after hearing the Cinderella Meet and Greet area had been scrapped for a new ride instead. The Snow White IP is beloved to start out with, and the focus on the Dwarf characters seemed like a healthy counterbalance to the original overwhelmingly feminine and very child-centric New Fantasyland (the one with Pixie Hollow and Tremaine Chateau. The art for the ride was very attractive, and the original track layout (longer with additional interior scenes) was met with a general degree of optimism from the community (and myself).
What soured people on 7DMT were the escalating budget cuts that began to occur throughout its development, as well as the news that the old Snow White ride building would be foolishly wasted on a dedicated meet and greet area (instead of a new dark ride). This further soured when people saw the blueprints for the Dwarf figures at D23, which showed plans to include archaic limited motion figures that weren't even real animatronics (it's really stupid that they even considered cheaping out by not using animatronics). Thankfully the figures were finalized as real (and good quality) animatronics. They saved the ride, would have been a relatively lame experience without them. Though again the ride needs more, and ended up with mixed/lukewarm reception from fans.
Pandora's boat ride is kind of up in the air regarding the inclusion a drop. There have been hints either way. I had the feeling @articos may have been trying to hint in another topic that there might be a drop but it's not easy to discern the truth based on vague teases and the things people are trying to piece together from steel framework shots. It's a real shame they didn't discuss it much at D23, that actually feeds concerns regarding the ride's inclusion, or that it may not be considered "good enough" by Disney leaders to release new details...
Cars Land was criticized during construction for a variety of reasons. People were skeptical about the IP itself (the Cars movies have mixed reactions from Pixar fans) but they were also wary of those running the company. DCA itself had a somewhat meh or even negative opinion from many Disneyland fans since it was built. When the first announcement and conceptual plans for Cars Land released, they were fresh off of Disneyland's 50th restoration project (which was really just a return to competent maintenance again). No one was sure how they'd handle actual creative expansion of the resort. The finished product ended up impressing however and has come to be seen in a very positive light.
7DMT was criticized for somewhat different reasons, and in a somewhat different chronological order during its creation process. In actuality many people were fairly positive and open minded on 7DMT on when announced, especially after hearing the Cinderella Meet and Greet area had been scrapped for a new ride instead. The Snow White IP is beloved to start out with, and the focus on the Dwarf characters seemed like a healthy counterbalance to the original overwhelmingly feminine and very child-centric New Fantasyland (the one with Pixie Hollow and Tremaine Chateau. The art for the ride was very attractive, and the original track layout (longer with additional interior scenes) was met with a general degree of optimism from the community (and myself).
What soured people on 7DMT were the escalating budget cuts that began to occur throughout its development, as well as the news that the old Snow White ride building would be foolishly wasted on a dedicated meet and greet area (instead of a new dark ride). This further soured when people saw the blueprints for the Dwarf figures at D23, which showed plans to include archaic limited motion figures that weren't even real animatronics (it's really stupid that they even considered cheaping out by not using animatronics). Thankfully the figures were finalized as real (and good quality) animatronics. They saved the ride, would have been a relatively lame experience without them. Though again the ride needs more, and ended up with mixed/lukewarm reception from fans.
Pandora's boat ride is kind of up in the air regarding the inclusion a drop. There have been hints either way. I had the feeling @articos may have been trying to hint in another topic that there might be a drop but it's not easy to discern the truth based on vague teases and the things people are trying to piece together from steel framework shots. It's a real shame they didn't discuss it much at D23, that actually feeds concerns regarding the ride's inclusion, or that it may not be considered "good enough" by Disney leaders to release new details...
PorterRedkey
Well-Known Member
Cars was the lowest rated Pixar movie, but because it is a merchandise juggernaut and Lasseter wanted it, it happened. SDMT could have been an E-ticket, but now we have a short, well-themed rollercoaster with one great dark ride scene. Maybe the imagineers should go crazy in the blue-sky phase. Shoot for a huge 8 minutes experience and then when it gets whittled down to 4 or 5 minutes it will still be a better than if you started with a 4 or 5 minute ride that gets cut to 2 or 3 minutes.
prfctlyximprct
Well-Known Member
How long is the boat ride supposed to be?
Disneyhead'71
Well-Known Member
Great. But that's why it's not an E.
articos
Well-Known Member
I was just trying to point out there was a water ride.
No specifics on drop or no drop. I can't get that detailed.
misterID
Well-Known Member
We don't know a whole lot about it yet, but the moment some more details come out there are a few members here who are pretty good at figuring that stuff out.
juan
Well-Known Member
Cuts to the Shanghai version shortened the Florida version. It was built as a duplicate. The length and design for the Shanghai version was already complete prior to it being added to the FLE blueprints.
Again, I don't agree that Splash Mountain would be 'far superior' to 7DMT without the drop -- that is a matter of opinion.
First, the name would have to be changed to something like Smooth Mountain or Country Cruise Mountain because there would be no "splash" element.
Second, without the drop -- Splash Mountain would be flat with no elevated level and essentially IASW Southern Style. You simply can not omit the drop, it makes Splash Mountain what it is.
For me, the drop on Splash Mountain is way scarier than any other ride in WDW. That drop is so steep and terrifying -- and, it's not controlled so you just hang over the cliff for a moment. Not cool.
I have to agree on the Pandora boat ride. I hope there is a drop or slide -- just something to add a rush of excitement. Avatarland has been a frustrating venture, to say the least, but I do want to see it come to fruition. And, I will not endure this again with Toy Story and Star Wars land. I will only become interested when the date is announced and the shovels are well into the ground.
Okay, fine. When compared to the other mountains, 7DMT is not an E ticket. But, when compared to the other rides in Fantasyland -- 7DMT is more like a children's E ticket, not to mention, it is super popular. That said, I totally understand why some feel it's a D+.
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i ve always thought we might see a drop to evade a predator on the ride kind of like JPRA.. a 40 inch ride height would be appropriate and pretty much include everyone over the age of 5
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Jon81uk
Well-Known Member
I don't think it needs a drop, if you want a thrilling water ride there is Kali rapids but DAK doesn't have many sedate rides and this will add something a little smoother into the mix.
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