AVATAR progress

[Bparso87]

The big thing is that people think WDW is the only thing for Disney to worry about. No offense but why build big lands how long does that take to get return in investment. They put 500 million into a land how long before they see a profit from it. When Disney can make three marvel movies a year and Star Wars movies a year and make a couple billion dollars. That is not including toys from cars to princesses. They have so many lines of income and why put money into the parks people are still going. How much capacity can they really get for all these rumors.

 

[ThemeParks4Life]

after AVATAR is Done I the next thing Will be The Wizard of OZ coming to the animal kingdom.Despite of its Environment and fantasy like creatures.it could fit very well.

LOL not gonna happen.

 

[englanddg]

The big thing is that people think WDW is the only thing for Disney to worry about. No offense but why build big lands how long does that take to get return in investment. They put 500 million into a land how long before they see a profit from it. When Disney can make three marvel movies a year and Star Wars movies a year and make a couple billion dollars. That is not including toys from cars to princesses. They have so many lines of income and why put money into the parks people are still going. How much capacity can they really get for all these rumors.

And yet, that didn't stop them from dropping twice that into fixing something that wasn't broken to begin with. They reinvented the wheel to replace it with...a new wheel.

Best summery of the situation I've ever read:
http://micechat.com/24073-disney-fastpass-plus/

 

[marni1971]

How recently is "very"? I'll go back and look into it but I'd be very surprised and disappointed to hear this. There were plans for DAK to get a nighttime show long before Avatar entered the picture.

Past few weeks - month?

I think its a given DAK needs it. It just seems like its been postponed again.

 

[Tim_4]

And yet, that didn't stop them from dropping twice that into fixing something that wasn't broken to begin with. They reinvented the wheel to replace it with...a new wheel.

Best summery of the situation I've ever read:
http://micechat.com/24073-disney-fastpass-plus/

I have neither the time nor patience to point out the inaccuracies in that post. Regardless, it's completely off topic so please take it somewhere else.

The replies by chesirecat [sic] and Monorail Man do a decent job of pointing out how ludicrous the poster's conspiracy theories are.

 

[englanddg]

I have neither the time nor patience to point out the inaccuracies in that post. Regardless, it's completely off topic so please take it somewhere else.

It was in direct response (hence the quote) to this:

The big thing is that people think WDW is the only thing for Disney to worry about. No offense but why build big lands how long does that take to get return in investment. They put 500 million into a land how long before they see a profit from it. When Disney can make three marvel movies a year and Star Wars movies a year and make a couple billion dollars. That is not including toys from cars to princesses. They have so many lines of income and why put money into the parks people are still going. How much capacity can they really get for all these rumors.

If it's off topic, so is that post.

In addition, you are the one who brought up steady capital expenditure as a reason for drawn out construction / development schedules. I think criticism of current capital expenditure is valid and on topic, considering the status of the discussion.

Not because they're incapable, it's by design. Shareholders like to see steady outflows of capital spending, not sudden peaks and valleys. Attendance, revenue, and operating income are all well- positioned and growing. There's no need to rush. The hardcore fans are the only ones who know or care about "in progress" projects and the hardcore fans go anyways.

While you can be as snarky as you like, at least be consistent.

 

[Darth Sidious]

Not because they're incapable, it's by design. Shareholders like to see steady outflows of capital spending, not sudden peaks and valleys. Attendance, revenue, and operating income are all well- positioned and growing. There's no need to rush. The hardcore fans are the only ones who know or care about "in progress" projects and the hardcore fans go anyways.

See you're right but that isn't the only way a company can successfully manage their financials. Many big successful companies spend massively for the future, even collecting losses in some years. Wall St won't price down your shares on a loss attributed to increased capex for future revenues. The problem is that Disney believes they don't need to spend to stay ahead or compete. It may be true for now but it won't always be.

 

[Tim_4]

In addition, you are the one who brought up steady capital expenditure as a reason for drawn out construction / development schedules. I think criticism of current capital expenditure is valid and on topic, considering the status of the discussion.

So, while you can be as snarky as you like, at least be consistent.

My comment was directly concerning the pace of the Avatar project. I didn't create this thread so it could become a bitchfest about MM+. There are already a handful of "Spirited" threads where incessant complaining and negativity are more than welcome.

 

[Tim_4]

See you're right but that isn't the only way a company can successfully manage their financials. Many big successful companies spend massively for the future, even collecting losses in some years. Wall St won't price down your shares on a loss attributed to increased capex for future revenues. The problem is that Disney believes they don't need to spend to stay ahead or compete. It may be true for now but it won't always be.

You do realize the irony of what you just posted in a thread about a forthcoming $500M to $1B project, right?

They ARE investing. That's what Avatar IS.

 

[englanddg]

My comment was directly concerning the pace of the Avatar project. I didn't create this thread so it could become a bitchfest about MM+. There are already a handful of "Spirited" threads where incessant complaining and negativity are more than welcome.

Understood.

To be fair, I wasn't trying to turn it into a "bitchfest" about MM+. However, as I stated, considering the current capital investments, forgive my skepticism and distaste for "finance" being the reason for delayed development.

It may be the reason, I don't doubt you. But, I find it a very shallow one. And that's nothing more than my opinion.

 

[Darth Sidious]

You do realize the irony of what you just posted in a thread about a forthcoming $500M to $1B project, right?

They ARE investing. That's what Avatar IS.

I was telling you not they need to spend more but that they don't necessarily have to spread that out over many years. There are benefits to spending now rather than over time. Besides Avatar's budget is nowhere near $1B, the highest it will go is $400-500M.

You're very quick to be argumentative, even when someone agrees with your points. I opened by stating you were right. My comments were supplemental to what you stated. It is clear that Disney is spreading CAPEX. My point is, that is disappointing because you don't need to do that, it isn't the only successful approach.

 

[englanddg]

I was telling you not they need to spend more but that they don't necessarily have to spread that out over many years. There are benefits to spending now rather than over time. Besides Avatar's budget is nowhere near $1B, the highest it will go is $400-500M.

You're very quick to be argumentative, even when someone agrees with your points. I opened by stating you were right. My comments were supplemental to what you stated. It is clear that Disney is spreading CAPEX. My point is, that is disappointing because you don't need to do that, it isn't the only successful approach.

Exactly. Disney Interactive lost something like 80 million in 2011 (due largely to a questionable acquisition), and investors didn't even hiccup. When DCL decides to build a billion dollar ship, they do it. The list goes on.

 

[Tim_4]

Besides Avatar's budget is nowhere near $1B, the highest it will go is $400-500M.

I happen to know the exact number and you're wrong.

 

[englanddg]

I happen to know the exact number and you're wrong.

Is it $500,000,000.01?

<kidding, seriously, just a well meaning joke>

 

[GoofGoof]

Those "third wave" people sure are impressive at cheapening and destroying attractions. I'm sure glad that Disney is leaving it's concepts and ideas to hired guns.

Also, considering the mess that AK is, I really don't find Joe Rhode all that impressive. Maybe he's a victim of company forces outside his control, or maybe he's a self-inflated arrogant buffoon.

In either case, looking as what he has produced (disco Yeti and broken / poor themes), as I said, I'm not impressed.

I know I'll probably get flamed for that, but I mean my comment with honesty and respect.

<my sarcasm is dripping, if you can't tell>

In all fairness to the WDI folks, they don't control the budgets and they don't get final say in what gets green lit. They also don't get a say in what is spent on maintenance. I think if given the budget and the opportunity they can still create pretty amazing things. FLE is beautiful and extremely well done. Carsland is another recent example of a great effort. I am no insider and I have no clue who is to blame for disco yeti. That could very well be a knock against the WDI folks who designed the ride.

My whole point is I think if the budget isn't cut and the project stays green lit the WDI team definitely has the capability of blowing us away with Avatar. We'll know for sure...in 4 years or so.

 

[Bparso87]

What do you guys think avatar land will bring in how many years in till they see a profit. They are building a lot of DVC right now to get steady profits and annual dues. The annual dues also help mantain resorts that regular guess stay. Disney will make huge money this year just in movies. I just don't think that WDW is there main priority and if they can split this up over 4 years that means 125 million a year that will not even hurt them because they will still get the same profit from the parks that they got now. Not including ticket price increase and every other price increase that will help pay for it. It is ashame that they will do this but if I ran Disney I would do the same thing if not even scrap the project dur to the price of this project. I do not see how this will benefit the company at all except to keep the park open later.

 

[bubbles1812]

I happen to know the exact number and you're wrong.

Then what is the actual budget? I know you've given general parameters but there is a lot of space in there. There is a huuuuge difference between 1.1 billion dollars and 445 million in terms of budget. And as far as I can tell, reading back through all the different Avatar threads, the budget Disney has been willing to set has never been more than around 500 million, which I honestly don't think is enough to make Avatar the draw Disney would presumably like it to be. You are right and it's something I've talked about for a long time.. They need to make the world very appealing to even remotely get the dividends they want because it simply isn't a strong franchise from a character and story perspective.

Also, if the night time show really is axed, it's
1) Not shocking at all... They've already demonstrated time and again how they cut set budgets once they get going
2) A huge mistake

 

[GoofGoof]

What do you guys think avatar land will bring in how many years in till they see a profit. They are building a lot of DVC right now to get steady profits and annual dues. The annual dues also help mantain resorts that regular guess stay.

DVC is a cash cow. The profits are made with the upfront point sales. The annual dues can only be used to pay for costs directly related to DVC. Florida timeshare law prohibits Disney from taking money from dues to pay for other expenses and/or to take as profit. Some of the Deluxe resorts that have a DVC also (like BLT with CR or Boardwalk or AK) that share common services like bell services or front desk could see a slight decrease in operating costs, but the primary economics behind DVC is the upfront point sales.

Disney will make huge money this year just in movies. I just don't think that WDW is there main priority and if they can split this up over 4 years that means 125 million a year that will not even hurt them because they will still get the same profit from the parks that they got now. Not including ticket price increase and every other price increase that will help pay for it. It is ashame that they will do this but if I ran Disney I would do the same thing if not even scrap the project dur to the price of this project. I do not see how this will benefit the company at all except to keep the park open later.

To bring this back on topic, Avatar being split over 4 years definitely helps smooth out the capital spend. The company has invested heavily in P&R over the last few years with 2 cruise ships, DCA, FLE and Aulani plus the spend on foreign parks. Don't forget the money spent on magic wrist bands. Iger and Co are publicly saying that this fiscal year will see a major decrease in P&R capital spending and it has this far through 2 quarters. Based on what a lot of insiders are saying it looks like WDW will finally be getting some much needed love. The spending on Avatar and whatever happens at DHS will not be insignificant plus the rest of FLE and Disney Springs. If all of this goes down we're looking at a major capital spend over the next 5 years at WDW. On pace with what DLR got over the last 5 years. Who know what version of each project we will get but it will give us something to talk about for a while.

 

[doctornick]

Isn't there another appropriate thread for complaining about Avatar? This one is supposed to be to discuss the actual theme park plans....

 

[twebber55]

Isn't there another appropriate thread for complaining about Avatar? This one is supposed to be to discuss the actual theme park plans....

Some people choose to ignore what the mod asked when he clearly stared please do not debate avatar but go to the other thread

I mean i have an anecdotyl story to show avatar is popular and well known but thats not for this thread