AVATAR land - the specifics

[Lee]

I think we've talked about @Lee or @WDW1974 (who I think is still away but who knows, maybe he'll post something on the matter) without them taking part in the conversation. We should perhaps let them clarify the history of the project and its ups and downs and see what is said on the matter.

Did I miss something?

I'm not going to read back a lot of posts, but I will try to briefly summarize.

Avatar had a very troubled development, beginning with Iger and Staggs springing it on an unsuspecting Imagineering. It wasn't exactly what Rohde and co. had in mind for DAK's future.

From there it went through periods of both creative and financial struggles, none of which is really surprising given the people involved. It was never shelved, but on more than one occasion one side or the other seriously contemplated walking away over creative, personal or financial differences.

(Contrary to some statements I've seen here, I'm not aware of any clause that would require Disney to pay Jim Cameron any fee if the project fell through. No Hollywood "pay or play" sort of deal. Either side could have walked and ended the whole thing. Disney had the rights to build Avatar, but no obligation to.)

That clear as mud?

And yes...74 is still on sabbatical for another week or so, at least.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

well said (as always) i ve always felt the people who are anti avatar have been quick to jump on any negative press about the project or less than positive words from our insiders...the insiders drive this board period..and i enjoy what they have to say but i dont cling to every word they say either

I've generally been positive about Avatar. I would rather have something else that I personally feel would fit the park better (and i'm actually not even talking about Beastly Kingdom, i'd rather have another country like South America or Australia even over that), but i've always had an open mind on it and am willing to give it a chance provided they put the effort into making it a worthwhile park experience. And that is my biggest worry at this point. I think the concept art and models look great, but we'll be lucky if they don't value engineer the crap out of it by 2017 (like they do with pretty much every other project).

I do think the insiders were telling the complete truth about the project's troubled development though, whether there was any bias in their opinions or not. The evidence points towards internal issues. And given what we know about Joe Rhode and James Cameron, I think it makes sense that they would be take issue with the way Disney has handled this project (for different reasons from one another of course but i'm sure heads clashed many times and there was trouble).

Did I miss something?

I'm not going to read back a lot of posts, but I will try to briefly summarize.

Avatar had a very troubled development, beginning with Iger and Staggs springing it on an unsuspecting Imagineering. It wasn't exactly what Rohde and co. had in mind for DAK's future.

From there it went through periods of both creative and financial struggles, none of which is really surprising given the people involved. It was never shelved, but on more than one occasion one side or the other seriously contemplated walking away over creative, personal or financial differences.

(Contrary to some statements I've seen here, I'm not aware of any clause that would require Disney to pay Jim Cameron any fee if the project fell through. No Hollywood "pay or play" sort of deal. Either side could have walked and ended the whole thing. Disney had the rights to build Avatar, but no obligation to.)

That clear as mud?

And yes...74 is still on sabbatical for another week or so, at least.

Yep, that clears things up, thanks for weighing in. I'm keeping an open mind about the project until we see whether they decide to value engineer too much.

You didn't miss much, but this discussion started when another poster (among a few others I think) said the Avatar project was never in any trouble and was pretty much a smooth process.

I do gather that Cameron wanted more from this besides a boat ride and Soarin-type ride though. What caused him to concede and allow Disney to scrap the third ride I saw Martin mention at one point?

 

[Zweiland]

I almost forgot to respond to this amazing post! Awww, you must be an outsider because your post count is way too low for the high level of intellect you possess and your "likes" should be much higher than it is! I would give you one billion likes if I could. I love everything you've written here, you have a good sense of logic and don't let anyone (especially here) tell you otherwise.

An "insider" is someone who has exclusive information from reliable sources within the management and executives of the Walt Disney World Resort or other Disney parks. It has nothing to do with your post count and level of intellect. Most of us on here are "outsiders", including myself.

Anyway, it appears you aren't leaving after all? That's good. I've seen your posts on other threads, and I actually like most of them. Don't let one disagreement influence whether you stay on this board or not.

 

[Bairstow]

(Contrary to some statements I've seen here, I'm not aware of any clause that would require Disney to pay Jim Cameron any fee if the project fell through. No Hollywood "pay or play" sort of deal. Either side could have walked and ended the whole thing. Disney had the rights to build Avatar, but no obligation to.)

This would be exceedingly rare for this type of contract.
If this were the case, Cameron can walk out the day before opening and Disney is stuck with an 800 million dollar expansion they can't use.
Alternatively, Disney could change their minds the day before breaking ground, leaving Cameron with nothing to show for having tied up the theme park rights to his property for x-many years.

 

[Lee]

This would be exceedingly rare for this type of contract.
If this were the case, Cameron can walk out the day before opening and Disney is stuck with an 800 million dollar expansion they can't use.
Alternatively, Disney could change their minds the day before breaking ground, leaving Cameron with nothing to show for having tied up the theme park rights to his property for x-many years.

You're right, I should clarify....

There is a "point of no return" beyond which such penalties for pulling out would go into effect. Up to that point (the exact timing of which, I don't know) either side had means of escape.

Similar to Disney's deal a decade or so ago with Clive Barker to make attractions/lands based on his Abarat stories. Art and models were done....then nothing. Disney decided not to exercise their rights and they reverted back to Barker. The same could have applied to this situation, but at this point it almost certainly won't.

 

[WDWFan_Boston]

I'm leaving. I hate this website!

All joking aside, there have been times that the insiders and other posters got me fired up, especially when I first joined the group and assumed that everyone loved WDW and that the conversation would always agree with my points of view. After a few weeks of frustration (and thinking about leaving), I had to come to the point where I realized that there isn't anything wrong with a little back and forth. People don't have to (and don't) think like me. I like Carousel of Progress and the Backlot Tour. I'll stand in line for an hour for Be Our Guest. If that's not you, I really don't care. But if you disagree with my point of view, it's not a personal insult to me.

I enjoy this forum, and I liked it even more when I figured this out for myself.

 

[doctornick]

All joking aside, there have been times that the insiders and other posters got me fired up, especially when I first joined the group and assumed that everyone loved WDW and that the conversation would always agree with my points of view. After a few weeks of frustration (and thinking about leaving), I had to come to the point where I realized that there isn't anything wrong with a little back and forth. People don't have to (and don't) think like me. I like Carousel of Progress and the Backlot Tour. I'll stand in line for an hour for Be Our Guest. If that's not you, I really don't care. But if you disagree with my point of view, it's not a personal insult to me.

I enjoy this forum, and I liked it even more when I figured this out for myself.

I think the biggest thing for me is realizing that just because someone says that a "problem" is some big deal, to consider it myself as to whether it is important or affects my vacations in WDW. I'm not going to let the fact that someone else is bothered by something (or love it, for that matter) influence me, I'm going to just the criticism on its own merit and form my own opinion.

In reading this board, it has opened my eyes to certain problems that WDW has -- some of which I knew, some instinctively realized but could not articulate and some I was unaware of. But I also find a lot of complaints that strike me as nitpicky and pointless and I just ignore them. That doesn't mean they don't have validity, but I'm not going to get up in arms about stuff that doesn't bother me at all. What I don't like on here is the groupthink that sometimes permeates where if you don't agree with the majority of the negativity, that you deserve to be insulted and called a "pixie dust snorter" or shill for the company or a "mentally ill lifestyler". It's off-putting and unnecessary and does not advance the level of discourse. My 2 cents.

 

[JenniferS]

Good night everybody. I'll see most of you again in the morning.

 

[englanddg]

Ok, let me further explain how you are not helping your cause.

Please stop with your insults.

It wasn't an attack against you, it was a statement that the thread is derailed, and the mods (see rule #1 and #2 that I posted before) will probably go into effect.

I don't like you -- you don't like me.

You made it personal, she responded, you responded, she responded...this does nothing to stop that cycle. Also, you two don't even really KNOW each other, so how can you say that? For all you know, she's the cashier at your local McDonalds who hooked you up with extra fries the other day. You don't know.

There is no point in going back and forth.

Then why do it? Why not leave like you said several posts ago?

This must be the most action you've ever gotten on this board.

Really...REALLY? I have no comment...you obviously did no research into her history in the board or her posts and know nothing about her...which further makes me wonder, how can you say you don't like her based on limited posts?

It's disgusting how you relish in dishing out rude and unnecessary insults.

I give you a "gold star" for this comment (I hope you understand sarcasm).

You have to team up in order to remain relevant.

How can she "team up" on you? What is she afraid of? Are you referring to me? Or other regulars who have made comments? I'm confused. Last I checked, I control my own fingers, and she doesn't talk to me in private, and if she did and said "hey, lets gang up on this guy", I'd decline. But, you don't care to get to know anyone, so...accuse away!

I've seen so many other posters who out shine you,

Yes, emporer, in your quite limited judgement of all posters. You don't even know that Bob Saget is the best poster of us all, do you?

it is no wonder that you can only resort to cheap shots and name calling and jumping on the band wagon when the opportunity presents itself.

Show me where she called you a name in that post you quoted. I must have missed it.

I would write more about you, but again that would soon disappear.

Nice "threat".

 

[lazyboy97o]

You deserve a gold star! I really love the term "groupthink", it's a bit of an understatement for what goes on here but excellent comment nonetheless.

Groupthink is a rather specific psychological phenomenon, not a group of people who agree or even just conformity.

 

[HakunaMatata89]

You've missed nothing, but at least the thread is still alive!

oh ok thanks, idk there are plenty of avatar threads around, bumping them just gets people lost in the interwebs.

Nothing new. Someone just bumped the thread (after it died for many months) for the hell of it and it somehow devolved into an argument about whether the project was ever in trouble or not. All the relevant info now will probably be in another Avatar thread like the concept art one. Stick with those, this one will probably die again eventually.

yeah thats the one ive been looking at but i saw this resurfaced since i last checked and i was curious as to what was said but after seeing previous posts decided it wasn't worth the search. ive been lurking here for quite some time, then i made an account and just never got around to posting because the internet on deployments was too crappy to log in, now i look like a clueless newbie haha

 

[danlb_2000]

I find your comment to be disgusting, and I think you are foolish. Here we go again with unnecessary name calling. But I guess you have peace in knowing, that I can't respond in kind and half my posts will disappear anyway. This is yet, another clear example of the gross level of rudeness and ignorance that exists on this board and the disadvantage of continuing to play on this uneven playing field.

I don't have to pretend, I don't have to name drop and call people names just to fit in. I don't need to fit in, I don't like to play dirty games. You and the goat deserve each other, as you're two sides of the same coin.
I would tell you much more but that would also soon disappear. No way in hell would I ever seek credibility from the likes of you or anyone else on this board, so get over yourself. I'm no groupie and I'm certainly not a follower.

I barely read this board, I have never ever seen "Lee" or "74" and I had no clue who they were or what they represented until today. Have I committed a crime? Is it really that hard to believe that I have never seen or heard of these posters before today??? This place is just bizarre, I cannot get past this groupie-esque culture that exists here. I have never seen anything like it. Why is it considered an insult that I didn't know of "Lee" and "74" before now??? Ugh....

There is nothing wrong with not knowing who they are, everyone was new to these boards at some point and had to learn about the regular members. The problem is, in your first post in this thread you said:

Sorry, but this was never "confirmed" and nothing more than biased hearsay. Avatarland was never "shelved" or in jeopardy of being cancelled. Generally speaking, some folks have trouble admitting when they're wrong, so they make things up. Avatarland is unique because it's a collaborative effort that has to be strategically aligned with the upcoming film installments.

Oh okay, so this explains why we are still waiting for the completion of the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train -- because "its nothing compared to building a new world-class theme parks and attractions such as EPCOT or Tokyo DL." Got it.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that your comments above are completely false, they're just unsubstantiated rumors. LOL.

You clearly said this information was "biased hearsay" without knowing the source of he information and the credibility of the posters. Do you consider every single person on the Internet and unreliable source, or do you take the time to figure out who is credible and who isn't?

 

[danlb_2000]

I really need to stay up later on Saturday night, seems to be when all the fun happens!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I really need to stay up later on Saturday night, seems to be when all the fun happens!

I missed out on all the action too!

Then again, missing out on any action seems to sum up my every Saturday night. But that's real life. When I even miss out on the action on the cult forum sites I frequent for lack of any life I might need to re-evaluate my life choices!

 

[JenniferS]

I missed out on all the action too!

Then again, missing out on any action seems to sum up my every Saturday night. But that's real life. When I even miss out on the action on the cult forum sites I frequent for lack of any life I might need to re-evaluate my life choices!

Nah, you didn't miss much.
Against my better judgement and usual high degree of apathy, I got involved in a discussion with a cocoa puffs fan. @englanddg also tried to rationally dialogue with her. 2 pages of nothing removed overnight.
Think I'll hang out in the foods thread for the rest of the day, and nurse my wounds.

 

[Nubs70]

I foresee a heavy dose of biologicus interactions.

 

[gonnichi]

So does anyone know if Avatar is still going to be happening? I had heard that the reason the concept art was released In Japan's D23 was to try and build excitement there and get fans to want it at the Tokyo Disney Resort. This would allow Disney to split the cost of the projects development with the Oriental Land Co. Apparently neither the fans or the OLC wanted anything to do with Avatar. Is this true? Will Disney move forward on Avatar even though they now seem to have to pay for it all on their own?

I really don't feel good that so many people here don't think Avatar is a good idea and now it seems that people in Japan don't think so either. Disney better put a lot into Avatar and hit a home run or I fear they are wasting there money on this project.

 

[Beholder]

So does anyone know if Avatar is still going to be happening? I had heard that the reason the concept art was released In Japan's D23 was to try and build excitement there and get fans to want it at the Tokyo Disney Resort. This would allow Disney to split the cost of the projects development with the Oriental Land Co. Apparently neither the fans or the OLC wanted anything to do with Avatar. Is this true? Will Disney move forward on Avatar even though they now seem to have to pay for it all on their own?

I really don't feel good that so many people here don't think Avatar is a good idea and now it seems that people in Japan don't think so either. Disney better put a lot into Avatar and hit a home run or I fear they are wasting there money on this project.

I think your point about "hitting a home run" is key. If Disney, with Cameron, build this attraction area and it doesn't live up to the billing, then it'll be viewed as a failure. The entire concept has been met with a lot of doubt and derision, all for various reasons. I'm not thrilled with Avatar on any level, but I was excited to see this new concept art. It needs to amaze us and it needs to make believers out of the doubters. If not, then what a wasted opportunity to do something truly special. I hope someone within the process really understands this.

 

[twebber55]

So does anyone know if Avatar is still going to be happening? I had heard that the reason the concept art was released In Japan's D23 was to try and build excitement there and get fans to want it at the Tokyo Disney Resort. This would allow Disney to split the cost of the projects development with the Oriental Land Co. Apparently neither the fans or the OLC wanted anything to do with Avatar. Is this true? Will Disney move forward on Avatar even though they now seem to have to pay for it all on their own?

I really don't feel good that so many people here don't think Avatar is a good idea and now it seems that people in Japan don't think so either. Disney better put a lot into Avatar and hit a home run or I fear they are wasting there money on this project.

there is not one shred of evidence that the people in japan didnt like the avatar concept...in fact jim hill reported that they crowd loved the concept art

Avatar will have a similar impact that cars land had at DCA (in my opinion)

in fact OLC didnt want avatar or cars land because of cost not because they didnt like it...

 

[raymusiccity]

Nah, you didn't miss much.
Against my better judgement and usual high degree of apathy, I got involved in a discussion with a cocoa puffs fan. @englanddg also tried to rationally dialogue with her. 2 pages of nothing removed overnight.
Think I'll hang out in the foods thread for the rest of the day, and nurse my wounds.

Just remember, when you start to argue with a crazy person, other people passing by can't tell which of one of you is crazy !