AVATAR land - the specifics

[bakntime]

Random thought:

I was looking at the concept art for the boat ride, and I noticed that the boat seems to be "sitting" on top of the water rather than submerged in it like a boat normally is. Obviously it's just concept art and you can't really conclude much, but it made me wonder if they're considering using a trackless system like the one used at Aquatopia in Tokyo? They basically have trackless boats that "float" on like an inch of water. While the effect isn't terribly convincing during the day, at night it really looks like they in deeper water. If the Avatar boat ride stays on one level, this might be the perfect system to "control" the boats and have them perform in a way that boats don't typically move (think of animals bumping the boat off course, the boat drifting sideways, spinning around, going on a collision course with another boat, etc). The fact that the boat is so small (much smaller than Pirates, for example), also makes me wonder if it wasn't a concept based on the trackless vehicles like in Aquatopia.

I guess it's a stretch, but considering how far along the trackless system has come (from it's beginnings in Great Movie Ride and Tower of Terror to what it is now with Aquatopia/Ratatouille), it would be a great match for this attraction, but you'd lose the ability to do any drops or level changes, and I wonder if it would truly "feel" like a boat ride if the vehicle is actually just driving on concrete. That is, unless they develop some sort of motion base to add a bit of sway into the vehicles.

Here's a video of Aquatopia at night:

If you just stretch that Aquatopia vehicle a bit, it's not far off from the Avatar concept art:

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Wouldn't an Aquatopia ride system have to stay flat? I thought we saw stuff that looked like at least one drop from construction photos.

 

[PorterRedkey]

Wouldn't an Aquatopia ride system have to stay flat? I thought we saw stuff that looked like at least one drop from construction photos.

That is my understanding as well. I think it just depends if there really is a drop. It looks likely, but no one has said for sure. I think a nice Pirates size drop would be nice, especially if it is the sideways drop that Shanghai's Pirates may be receiving. (see @RSoxNo1 's post above.

 

[bakntime]

Wouldn't an Aquatopia ride system have to stay flat? I thought we saw stuff that looked like at least one drop from construction photos.

Yes I mentioned on my post that this ride system would preclude you from doing drops or level changes.

It's still undetermined whether the attraction will have drops in it. Some have speculated on what looks like a possible drop, but I think construction was just too early on in those photos to have any idea what that stuff was. Not that I'm claiming to know either way, but I think the door is open for almost anything.

The trackless/LPS systems do have drawbacks. They make an audible whirring sound as they move (due to the motors built into the vehicles). They are smaller capacity vehicles when compared to other boats (like Pirates or IASW), and as mentioned, they don't seem to be an ideal fit for elevation changes. If you were to do a boat ride using LPS vehicles, there wouldn't be any splashdowns.

They also have several advantages though. You have a full 360 range of movement. You can traverse every nook and cranny of a show area, whereas "tracked" boat rides are limited to sort of travelling in one direction through a show area, having a much more limited range of movement and requiring a wider girth in the canal where scenery can't be placed. LPS vehicles can react to each other and their surroundings, get spun off course by unruly fauna, and move backwards. There would be no visible "canal" that the boats travel in, adding to the mystery of not knowing which way your boat is going to go. They can also sneak in and around scenery more easily, creating a more intimate feeling.

The issue might be trying to explain how a boat would act in that manner, unless you presume that the boat is powered in some way (maybe being piloted by someone who sits in front of a steering wheel, sort of like Dinosaur).

While either option can be executed effectively, I'd be interested to see what they could do with basically an indoor version of Aquatopia. You'd lose out on having a PotC style drop, but the benefits in presentation and ride experience would be worth it for me.

 

[Master Yoda]

Yes I mentioned on my post that this ride system would preclude you from doing drops or level changes.

It's still undetermined whether the attraction will have drops in it. Some have speculated on what looks like a possible drop, but I think construction was just too early on in those photos to have any idea what that stuff was. Not that I'm claiming to know either way, but I think the door is open for almost anything.

The trackless/LPS systems do have drawbacks. They make an audible whirring sound as they move (due to the motors built into the vehicles). They are smaller capacity vehicles when compared to other boats (like Pirates or IASW), and as mentioned, they don't seem to be an ideal fit for elevation changes. If you were to do a boat ride using LPS vehicles, there wouldn't be any splashdowns.

They also have several advantages though. You have a full 360 range of movement. You can traverse every nook and cranny of a show area, whereas "tracked" boat rides are limited to sort of travelling in one direction through a show area, having a much more limited range of movement and requiring a wider girth in the canal where scenery can't be placed. LPS vehicles can react to each other and their surroundings, get spun off course by unruly fauna, and move backwards. There would be no visible "canal" that the boats travel in, adding to the mystery of not knowing which way your boat is going to go. They can also sneak in and around scenery more easily, creating a more intimate feeling.

The issue might be trying to explain how a boat would act in that manner, unless you presume that the boat is powered in some way (maybe being piloted by someone who sits in front of a steering wheel, sort of like Dinosaur).

While either option can be executed effectively, I'd be interested to see what they could do with basically an indoor version of Aquatopia. You'd lose out on having a PotC style drop, but the benefits in presentation and ride experience would be worth it for me.

Would it be possible to do level changes via a secondary mechanism on a trackless system like what is done on ToT? In the case of a drop, would it be possible to disengage the trackless system, allow gravity to do its thing and then reengage after the drop?

 

[NoChesterHester]

My speculation is that the Avatar model will be on display in the Parks and Resorts pavilion, as well some interactive plants and walk ways (basically what we saw in the Disney Parks Blog video).

Some additional speculation. I wonder if the Avatar Boat ride will use the boat ride system being used in Shanghai's Pirates attraction. My understanding was that Shanghai's ride has a sideways drop.

Is there somewhere more info on the Shanghai Pirates is posted? Sounds interesting.

 

[twebber55]

just listened to the daily Disney blog podcast and his guest was Jim hill (yeah yeah I know whatever)
Jim mentioned that at the Disney media campus in California (Glendale) on their parking garage they are testing the floating mtns
that you can see them if you go by there
I have no idea what the media campus is
also he seems to think opening will be in 2017

 

[Rteetz]

just listened to the daily Disney blog podcast and his guest was Jim hill (yeah yeah I know whatever)
Jim mentioned that at the Disney media campus in California (Glendale) on their parking garage they are testing the floating mtns
that you can see them if you go by there
I have no idea what the media campus is
also he seems to think opening will be in 2017

I think this is the campus

http://www./2010/05/disneys-creative-campus-in-glendale-to-enter-second-phase-of-expansion/

 

[bakntime]

Would it be possible to do level changes via a secondary mechanism on a trackless system like what is done on ToT? In the case of a drop, would it be possible to disengage the trackless system, allow gravity to do its thing and then reengage after the drop?

Yes, I've considered that myself. I'd say there are certainly ways to work around the "no elevation changes" situation as it currently stands. Obviously an elevator system like ToT would work, but makes little sense to use in a case like this. A slope/drop might be possible using conveyor belts (like a reverse log flume lift hill) or perhaps the technology can be modified to actually drive down a slope, then an elevator or conveyor system to lift the vehicles back up to the loading area. I think this is a case of "it's never been done before, but it's doable." The questions are: 1) What might it cost, and 2) Would it slow down the small-capacity vehicles. The trackless rides already have a lower capacity due to the small vehicles (you might be able to get 6 people in a vehicle if they make it a little bigger), and a drop of some kind maybe require a larger buffer between vehicles, reducing capacity too much.

I know a lot of people seem to be eager for the attraction to have a drop or something like Pirates, but that doesn't make much of a difference to me. That drop on PotC is a fun little element, but it's hardly the highlight of a ride like that. While it does add a mild thrill to an otherwise slow attraction, it's not going to turn it into an Expedition Everest or even a Splash Mountain. And if you're going to make this boat ride more advanced using LPS, it could be the water version of some of the better Disney dark rides overseas (like Ratatouille, Pooh's Hunny Hunt, Phantom Manor, etc). I'll take that if I have to lose a drop, because it intrigues me a lot more than another "Pirates" in Pandora.

But anyway, it's all just me speculating at this point. I'm thinking that a trackless/LPS system is still rather unlikely for this attraction. It's certainly possible (see Aquatopia), but I'm not really expecting it.

also he seems to think opening will be in 2017

Everyone thinks/says that, so not really surprising.

 

[bakntime]

I think this is the campus

http://www./2010/05/disneys-creative-campus-in-glendale-to-enter-second-phase-of-expansion/

Yes, here's the google maps overhead of where they usually test new stuff:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Flower+St+&+Grandview+Ave,+Glendale,+CA+91201/@34.160195,-118.2829772,162m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x80c2c06d3d195135:0xc8b5f49deafdb868?hl=en


You can see that when this imagery was taken, there are some tracks there which are either EMV / Test Track / Radiator Springs Racers style tracks. They've been there for quite some time (first added to the lot sometime in the 90s, actually).

 

[Master Yoda]

Yes, I've considered that myself. I'd say there are certainly ways to work around the "no elevation changes" situation as it currently stands. Obviously an elevator system like ToT would work, but makes little sense to use in a case like this. A slope/drop might be possible using conveyor belts (like a reverse log flume lift hill) or perhaps the technology can be modified to actually drive down a slope, then an elevator or conveyor system to lift the vehicles back up to the loading area. I think this is a case of "it's never been done before, but it's doable." The questions are: 1) What might it cost, and 2) Would it slow down the small-capacity vehicles. The trackless rides already have a lower capacity due to the small vehicles (you might be able to get 6 people in a vehicle if they make it a little bigger), and a drop of some kind maybe require a larger buffer between vehicles, reducing capacity too much.

I know a lot of people seem to be eager for the attraction to have a drop or something like Pirates, but that doesn't make much of a difference to me. That drop on PotC is a fun little element, but it's hardly the highlight of a ride like that. While it does add a mild thrill to an otherwise slow attraction, it's not going to turn it into an Expedition Everest or even a Splash Mountain. And if you're going to make this boat ride more advanced using LPS, it could be the water version of some of the better Disney dark rides overseas (like Ratatouille, Pooh's Hunny Hunt, Phantom Manor, etc). I'll take that if I have to lose a drop, because it intrigues me a lot more than another "Pirates" in Pandora.

But anyway, it's all just me speculating at this point. I'm thinking that a trackless/LPS system is still rather unlikely for this attraction. It's certainly possible (see Aquatopia), but I'm not really expecting it.


Everyone thinks/says that, so not really surprising.

I agree on the drop. I like it, but I don't need it.

 

[danlb_2000]

just listened to the daily Disney blog podcast and his guest was Jim hill (yeah yeah I know whatever)
Jim mentioned that at the Disney media campus in California (Glendale) on their parking garage they are testing the floating mtns
that you can see them if you go by there
I have no idea what the media campus is
also he seems to think opening will be in 2017

Hopefully someone will get a picture.

 

[Bairstow]

Is there somewhere more info on the Shanghai Pirates is posted? Sounds interesting.

http://nerdist.com/preview-shanghai...ttle-for-the-sunken-treasure-ride/zz26ba0473/

 

[toolsnspools]

... That drop on PotC is a fun little element...

It's all fun and games till somebody loses a finger.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/posts/6219703/

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Not that it isn't tragic (it is). I just don't think we should start neutering rides simply due to the fact that some guests don't listen to the safety rules when riding. It's possible to get injured or even killed on the simplest and least dangerous of rides, accidents do (and have) happened. It should be drilled into everyone's subconscious by now being told at the start of rides to keep all your body parts inside the vehicle at all times.

Then again a talking skull spouting additional warnings may provide additional prevention against this sort of thing.

 

[Cesar R M]

It's all fun and games till somebody loses a finger.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/posts/6219703/

wasnt that pure and outright user stupidity?

 

[toolsnspools]

Not that it isn't tragic (it is). I just don't think we should start neutering rides simply due to the fact that some guests don't listen to the safety rules when riding. It's possible to get injured or even killed on the simplest and least dangerous of rides, accidents do (and have) happened. It should be drilled into everyone's subconscious by now being told at the start of rides to keep all your body parts inside the vehicle at all times.

Then again a talking skull spouting additional warnings may provide additional prevention against this sort of thing.

Yeah, that was heavy heaping of sarcasm on my part. I bet the guy gets a good chuckle out if it today. There's also the added benefit that anyone who knows his story will think twice before they stick their hand out of a moving ride vehicle. Love the talking skull idea too.

 

[180º]

Yeah, that was heavy heaping of sarcasm on my part. I bet the guy gets a good chuckle out if it today. There's also the added benefit that anyone who knows his story will think twice before they stick their hand out of a moving ride vehicle. Love the talking skull idea too.

What a wacky idea! I kind of like it too. I imagine it could say something roughly along these lines:

Psst. Avast there! It be too late to alter course, mateys, and there be plunderin' pirates lurking in every cove, waiting to board. Sit closer together and keep your ruddy hands inboard! That be the best way to repel boarders. And mark well me words, mateys: Dead men tell no tales. Ye come seeking adventure and salty old pirates, eh? Sure, you've come to the proper place. But keep a weather eye open, mates, and hold on tight–with both hands, if you please. There be squalls ahead, and Davey Jones waiting for them what don't obey.

Sounds like it should have been there all along, if I do say so myself. They really oughta hire me.

 

[180º]

And @toolsnspools, forgive me for indulging in a heavy heaping of sarcasm myself. Not meant in spite. I just saw the opportunity and took it.

As for Avatar, I have always had two things against trackless rides, which is otherwise an amazing ride system. One is the lack of elevation change, which others have argued is not technically impossible, but so far, prohibitive. The other is the great expanse of floor that comes with the feature of multiple possible ride paths. But I don't think we've seen an application of this technology to a water dark ride, and a water dark ride may be the perfect home for trackless. A water based ride like POTC does not have the constant, varying slopes of dry ride systems like Haunted Mansion or Dinosaur, so no loss there. Then, a water-based ride like POTC and IASW at the Magic Kingdom have large expanses of water just for aesthetic purposes, so no loss there either.

 

[bakntime]

As for Avatar, I have always had two things against trackless rides, which is otherwise an amazing ride system. One is the lack of elevation change, which others have argued is not technically impossible, but so far, prohibitive. The other is the great expanse of floor that comes with the feature of multiple possible ride paths. But I don't think we've seen an application of this technology to a water dark ride, and a water dark ride may be the perfect home for trackless. A water based ride like POTC does not have the constant, varying slopes of dry ride systems like Haunted Mansion or Dinosaur, so no loss there. Then, a water-based ride like POTC and IASW at the Magic Kingdom have large expanses of water just for aesthetic purposes, so no loss there either.

That's one of the reasons I think it would be interesting for this particular application.

The only big reservation I have with it is that I don't know how it would feel. I haven't ridden Aquatopia, but it seems like the feel of actually floating on the water might be lost if the vehicle is in reality driving on concrete beneath the water. They might be able to compensate with some sort of suspension / shock absorption system, so that the hardness of the concrete becomes bouncier. That might be enough to make it feel more watery.

I do agree with your point about dry LPS attractions and how they could sometimes be victim of the "big empty floor space" problem, but the current dry LPS/trackless attractions seem to cope with it fairly well, masking the floor with darker lighting, but it's most effective in attractions where you're supposed to be on an actual floor (like on most of Ratatouille, for example, where you spend much of the time on the floor of the restaurant and other flat surfaces).