Automated monorail system update

[montyz81]

There's been a handful of attempts to build HSR in Florida, some of them going down different routes. There have also been other private attempts to build east-west high speed rail in Central Florida. One of these would have stopped directly at EPCOT Center. The latest attempt would have stopped near Celebration on I-4 and an unannounced monorail extension would have collected guests from that station which Disney was prepared to donate land for. A monorail extension to outside WDW property to an intermodal station on I-Drive at the convention center is my dream idea.

Wasn't the Epcot Center monorail stop originally suppose to be the TTC?

 

[senor_jorge]

Disagree, wireless is slower,unreliable and more expensive to maintain and requires to have free frequencies in the area.
you can just dig a fiber and get 10Gbps for long distances with minimal equipment.

also, wireless stuff can be hacked easier than to cut a fiber cable to put a tracer then rebonding the cable.
.

Isn't every skilled hacker a fiber tech too?

To disrupt service the freq simply has to be jammed if common safeties are in place. WiFi drops, train stops.

 

[PeterAlt]

Wasn't the Epcot Center monorail stop originally suppose to be the TTC?

Good question. Even with my infinite monorail knowledge, I haven't seen that before. I don't know. Anyone?

 

[danlb_2000]

I was going back over the October permits and it turns out I missed one and it's one for the Monorail that might be related to the automation project:

Monorail Beamway and all Stations and TTC West Gate - Electrical Modifications

The contractor is Thales Group which has a transportation division that does automated train controls.

I also found this in one of their press releases:

"Won the tender to resignal the Walt Disney Monorail in Orlando Florida."

It appears that their system is already used in Hong Kong Disneyland:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/content/seltracr-cbtc-communications-based-train-control-urban-rail

 

[monothingie]

Disagree, wireless is slower,unreliable and more expensive to maintain and requires to have free frequencies in the area.
you can just dig a fiber and get 10Gbps for long distances with minimal equipment.

also, wireless stuff can be hacked easier than to cut a fiber cable to put a tracer then rebonding the cable.
.

I meant for the trains control system, not for the pipes between sites.

 

[Cesar R M]

Isn't every skilled hacker a fiber tech too?

To disrupt service the freq simply has to be jammed if common safeties are in place. WiFi drops, train stops.

there is a huge difference in having to dig to get into the fibre cable. and just drive by, park near a transmitter, and then break the signal.
but then, most hackers do not attack the devices from outside, they do via the internet if they are exposed.

I meant for the trains control system, not for the pipes between sites.

both Tom and I were talking about the internet capacity related, not train control system. I think that was the problem.

 

[FigmentsFangirl]

I was going back over the October permits and it turns out I missed one and it's one for the Monorail that might be related to the automation project:

Monorail Beamway and all Stations and TTC West Gate - Electrical Modifications

The contractor is Thales Group which has a transportation division that does automated train controls.

I also found this in one of their press releases:

"Won the tender to resignal the Walt Disney Monorail in Orlando Florida."

It appears that their system is already used in Hong Kong Disneyland:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/content/seltracr-cbtc-communications-based-train-control-urban-rail

Eletrical modifications, and by what I am reading, it seem that they are merely rewiring the current signal system. You know the ones I mean, when no the monorail and we stop, the PA voice says "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are currently holding until the track ahead clears" This might be what the modifications are for.

Feel free to correct if I am wrong in this assumption

 

[Mr Bill]

Wasn't the Epcot Center monorail stop originally suppose to be the TTC?

I wouldn't say it was supposed to be the TTC but the station was designed with room for additional lines.

 

[PeterAlt]

Disagree, wireless is slower,unreliable and more expensive to maintain and requires to have free frequencies in the area.
you can just dig a fiber and get 10Gbps for long distances with minimal equipment.

also, wireless stuff can be hacked easier than to cut a fiber cable to put a tracer then rebonding the cable.
.

Oh goodie. Whenever I go to HKDL, I'll hack into Mystic Manor!

 

[Tom]

Eletrical modifications, and by what I am reading, it seem that they are merely rewiring the current signal system. You know the ones I mean, when no the monorail and we stop, the PA voice says "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are currently holding until the track ahead clears" This might be what the modifications are for.

Feel free to correct if I am wrong in this assumption

This makes sense. I still say they're a LONG way from complete automation, but they're definitely in need of a better moving block system. More sensors, on-track signal lights and far more feedback to the pilots.

It does indeed appear that they're laying the groundwork for total automation though. This new permit changes a lot.

 

[danlb_2000]

Eletrical modifications, and by what I am reading, it seem that they are merely rewiring the current signal system. You know the ones I mean, when no the monorail and we stop, the PA voice says "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are currently holding until the track ahead clears" This might be what the modifications are for.

Feel free to correct if I am wrong in this assumption

Notices of Commencement tend to be very vague with their work descriptions so "Electrical Modifications" could mean anything from, as you say, just re-wiring the current system to installing a totally new one. Based on who the contractor is I would think it's more then just a simple re-wire, but an upgrade of some sort.

 

[danlb_2000]

I was going back over the October permits and it turns out I missed one and it's one for the Monorail that might be related to the automation project:

Monorail Beamway and all Stations and TTC West Gate - Electrical Modifications

The contractor is Thales Group which has a transportation division that does automated train controls.

I also found this in one of their press releases:

"Won the tender to resignal the Walt Disney Monorail in Orlando Florida."

It appears that their system is already used in Hong Kong Disneyland:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/content/seltracr-cbtc-communications-based-train-control-urban-rail

Just realized that the work they did for Disney Hong Kong was for the Mass Transit Rail system extension to Disneyland.

 

[Tom]

Just realized that the work they did for Disney Hong Kong was for the Mass Transit Rail system extension to Disneyland.

Yeah, their portfolio doesn't exactly include minor upgrades. But given all the problems the monorails have had in the past several years, this could be just about anything.

Perhaps they're actually upgrading the electrical distribution to help eliminate all the power failures they have.

 

[monothingie]

there is a huge difference in having to dig to get into the fibre cable. and just drive by, park near a transmitter, and then break the signal.
but then, most hackers do not attack the devices from outside, they do via the internet if they are exposed.


both Tom and I were talking about the internet capacity related, not train control system. I think that was the problem.

Not that I want to get into a back and forth, but the majority of development for train control systems is based on wireless. Do a quick google search for PTC (Positive Train Control). It does seem to be the technology that most mass transit and long range rail systems are moving to.

 

[Cesar R M]

Not that I want to get into a back and forth, but the majority of development for train control systems is based on wireless. Do a quick google search for PTC (Positive Train Control). It does seem to be the technology that most mass transit and long range rail systems are moving to.

do you think this upgrade (switching to PTC) would be more probable to happen .. ? or the other 2 other suggestions? like what Tom suggested (Ie, fixing electrical lines) or upgrading the communication backbone ?

 

[lazyboy97o]

do you think this upgrade (switching to PTC) would be more probable to happen .. ? or the other 2 other suggestions? like what Tom suggested (Ie, fixing electrical lines) or upgrading the communication backbone ?

It should be on here somewhere, but a few months back the then new head of Disney Transport gave an interview where he stated that he would be actively pursuing automation of the Walt Disney World Monorail System over the next few years. As I recall, it sounded a bit more long term.

 

[Figment2005]

The work being done is in fact a train control system upgrade in order to prepare for partial train automation. Once the infrastructure is in place the plan would then be to upgrade each train. From what I am understanding a second computer console will be added in the cabs that will allow it to mesh with the current control scheme. As well as consoles being added to the station platforms to assist with load and unload automation. Basically the pilot and the platform operator will each have a "key" that needs to be activated in order for the automated system to recognize it can close the doors and proceed onto it's next destination.

This infrastructure upgrade is also a key ingredient for a possible train upgrade later on down the road. It would be pretty much pointless for Disney to invest in new trains without having this infrastructure in place. Consider the current trains as a test subject for what they want to eventually do. Also, this is no where near being implemented but there have also been talks of converting the train drive motors from DC to AC.

 

[ABQ]

As long as all this work somehow creates a more efficient operation. It boggles the mind at how backed up the resort monorail line can get. With just 5 stops, I can't understand how they so often are backed up stopping on beams for "traffic ahead" I'm sorry, but try riding the green line at rush hour from Government Center to Kenmore on a Red Sox game night in Boston and somehow even that ancient system moves more people faster, and that's supposedly the oldest subway in the country.

 

[Figment2005]

As long as all this work somehow creates a more efficient operation. It boggles the mind at how backed up the resort monorail line can get. With just 5 stops, I can't understand how they so often are backed up stopping on beams for "traffic ahead" I'm sorry, but try riding the green line at rush hour from Government Center to Kenmore on a Red Sox game night in Boston and somehow even that ancient system moves more people faster, and that's supposedly the oldest subway in the country.

The main reason the resort line gets backed up is because guests see the shorter line and add unneeded stress. When there are 4 trains running and each train has to stop at each station then things will get backed up. A 15 minute wait for the express train is actually going to turn out shorter than if you hop the resort line at park close. When we are running 3 trains on the resort beam there will be an empty train in the station every 2-3 minutes.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disney also waits for the guests who leave their brains behind. They also must place ramps for wheelchairs which slows down the process and it is not possible to stay on the train while moving to a car with more available room.